DUI as med student

[ughq59k511]

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without giving any other information... If one were to be convicted of a 1st offense DUI as an MS1, would it destroy her chances for residency/could it result in expulsion from med school?

 

[ughq59k511]

.

 

[colbgw02]

You should stop posting about this. I would not speak to anyone else unless it is a privileged conversation (i.e. with your spouse) until you've received advice from an attorney.

 

[deleted500612]

You should stop posting about this. I would not speak to anyone else unless it is a privileged conversation (i.e. with your spouse) until you've received advice from an attorney.

It's an anonymous internet forum, if there is any place to post about it without any associated risk, it's probably here.

 

[deleted480308]

It's an anonymous internet forum, if there is any place to post about it without any associated risk, it's probably here.

Remember, remember, the rescindment of november

 

[colbgw02]

It's an anonymous internet forum, if there is any place to post about it without any associated risk, it's probably here.

False.

 

[J ROD]

chiro school

 

[ughq59k511]

without giving any other information... If one were to be convicted of a 1st offense DUI as an MS1, would it destroy her chances for residency/could it result in expulsion from med school?

 

[Jibby321]

Bad judgement. I wouldn't want you to be my doc.....

But to answer your question personally if I were to see your file and see you were convicted I would throw your file away. But that's just IMO.

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

There is a trauma surgeon at my facility who has had 2 DUIs while in medical school...and here he is...saving lives. Sober of course. 🙂

 

[Wordead]

I imagine multiple medical students get DUIs every year. I KNOW they don't all get kicked out. How often do they kicked out? No idea. Is it a red flag on your application? Duh.

 

[elektroshok]

It would suck to get one at all, but getting one early in school probably favors you more than getting it fourth year when you're about a doctor

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Winged Scapula]

It's an anonymous internet forum, if there is any place to post about it without any associated risk, it's probably here.

Nothing is totally anonymous.

If SDN were subpoenaed for his identifying information, his posts here could be used against him.

 

[Jibby321]

There is a trauma surgeon at my facility who has had 2 DUIs while in medical school...and here he is...saving lives. Sober of course. 🙂

I wouldn't want him operating on me. 2 DUIs? That's just irresponsible. Did he have to go in front of the state board?

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

I mean you have to think about how long ago this one. This was about 10-11 years ago. I do know that this was in another state, and he reported it to our state board. I mean he has no restrictions on his license, and he is actively employed and an attending...so I guess it didn't affect him too much. No, I'm not advocating drinking and driving, but as far as someone saying I wouldn't wan him operating on me is a bit much. That's a decade ago, and has not had any since then.

 

[Jibby321]

It just shows bad judgement and as a physician I would expect much much more out of him. Just IMO.

 

[Cmaster]

I wouldn't want him operating on me. 2 DUIs? That's just irresponsible. Did he have to go in front of the state board?

No one is perfect... I don't think getting a DUI in medical school conveys the future character traits of that doctor.

People are prone to make mistake, some learn from them and become better people.

During my white coat ceremony 2 years back, the state director for medical licensing came and told us a story about a similar situation of a 4th year med student that was arrested for a DUI a couple days after the match. The student ended up losing his residency spot because the state in which he was hired to complete his residency refuse to approve him to see/treat patients.

 

[Jibby321]

No one is perfect... I don't think getting a DUI in medical school conveys the future character traits of that doctor.

People are prone to make mistake, some learn from them and become better people.

During my white coat ceremony 2 years back, the state director for medical licensing came and told us a story about a similar situation of a 4th year med student that was arrested for a DUI a couple days after the match. The student ended up losing his residency spot because the state in which he was hired to complete his residency refuse to approve him to see/treat patients.

Okay, but 2 DUIs? I mean come on. Like I said previously this is just IMO.

 

[deleted480308]

Okay, but 2 DUIs? I mean come on. Like I said previously this is just IMO.

Kid lost his acceptance for saying some racist things online...everyone applauds. Med student makes a conscious decision that can actually kill innocent people.....nobody's perfect. The internet is ridiculous.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

The posts thus far have been pretty ridiculous. You are not totally boned, and you are not a bad person for getting a DUI. The impact it will have on your residency chances will depend a lot on the state it occurred in, because the penalties are different. Talk to a lawyer, keep it hush hush, ignore the condescending posts in this thread.

 

[Jibby321]

The posts thus far have been pretty ridiculous. You are not totally boned, and you are not a bad person for getting a DUI. The impact it will have on your residency chances will depend a lot on the state it occurred in, because the penalties are different. Talk to a lawyer, keep it hush hush, ignore the condescending posts in this thread.

Not a bad person. Just shows you don't learn from your mistakes for getting not one but two DUIs......

 

[IlDestriero]

A DUI is usually not a felony, depending on the state and the specific details. You need to dig deep and get an attorney that specializes in DUI defense. Expect that it will cost you between $10 and $20k. You need to not have a conviction. That's what they do.
You still might be screwed. Start AA now, see a psychologist, you'll need all that to save your reputation going forward if convicted.
Go pull out that big binder that you got when you started from student affairs, or look online, and see what they require you to do after an arrest and when you need to do it. I guarantee it's in there.
And yes, the school may throw you out, if you're convicted that is. It will also follow you around forever like a scarlet letter. The further out you are, the less damaging it will be.
Personally I think they should kick medical students out for a DUI conviction. I have no sympathy at all for people that drive intoxicated and risk the lives of innocent travelers, like me and my family.
I've known one physician and one friends parent who were killed by drunk drivers. The physician was an attending surgeon going in for an emergency at around midnight.
For my fellowship, you'd never get a pass from me. Fortunately I'm not the final say, so you could impress the others and override my vote of "no".
Get ready to empty out the bank accounts. I hope your parents have money.

 

[pdxhopeful]

The physician was an attending surgeon going in for an emergency at around midnight.

Holy.... 🙁

 

[NontradCA]

without giving any other information... If one were to be convicted of a 1st offense DUI as an MS1, would it destroy her chances for residency/could it result in expulsion from med school?

Talk to your dean/lawyer, not interwebz.

 

[thefritz]

Personally I think they should kick medical students out for a DUI conviction. I have no sympathy at all for people that drive intoxicated and risk the lives of innocent travelers, like me and my family.

This comment highlights the problem with DUIs. The majority of society seems to view it as a black and white crime and only hears DUI and thinks the same thing for every case, when it reality it is not clear cut at all and highly variable depending on the case. DUI did not used to be a crime of moral turpitude, but now it is. We elected and re-elected a president with a history of drunk driving and DUI after all, and this was only 15 years ago. Other crimes, such as driving while on legally prescribed narcotics or texting and driving, which can be just as dangerous if not more dangerous are not on the same level because the recreational use of alcohol is not involved. In some states, DUI offenders can be convicted of second degree murder if a death results, whether or not alcohol is proven to be the cause of the crash. There is, to me at least, a very clear difference between a first-time offender who is pulled over for a broken headlight or winds up in a checkpoint and blows a 0.09 after having 3 beers at dinner versus a habitual offender who intentionally goes to the bar with the plan of drinking 10-12 beers and driving home and blows a 0.30. There is a difference to me between a 21 year old college kid who is out partying with his friends and gets drunk and makes the dumb, alcohol-fueled decision to drive a block to his home so his car doesn't get towed vs. the 50 year old day drinking attorney who takes a roadtrip and stops for a couple of shots every hour.

But the way laws are now, most DUIs are equal unless they involve bodily harm or a death, in which case they can even become second-degree murder even if you are at 0.09 and the crash was the other driver's fault. If alcohol is involved, somebody must pay -- it's never an accident, even if it is. It's a crime that people love to shame people for, and I don't necessarily think that's fair unless the circumstances are known. If you ever got drunk at all in your early 20s, chances are you at some point drove over the legal limit, and chances are you never got caught. Hopefully you realized what you did the next morning and never did it again, but usually people just rationalize and deny it as a defense mechanism: 'oh I only had 3 beers, and they were light beers, so I was almost definitely under the limit.' Virtually all of my friends in college drove at least once while they were questionable, and all of these people are leading healthy, productive lives, raising families, and being gainfully employed contributors in society. There were a smaller minority who regularly got very drunk and drove. (and unfortunately I still saw some of this behavior in medical students and even residents). Usually the latter group is the ones who get in legal trouble if they don't grow up and change their ways, but every once in a while somebody from the former category got unlucky and thrown in the drunk tank. I do not think that it is fair to ruin the life of a young person like this. But getting 2 DUIs is pretty damning evidence that you weren't one of these unlucky ones.

But this doesn't change the fact that most people don't approach this subject rationally with a bleeding heart like I do. Society as a whole, fueled by groups like MADD which demonize alcohol use, will view you as a social deviant only 1 step above child molester if you have a DUI. You don't really have any choice but to accept this, whether it's fair or not, and act accordingly.

 

[Muad'Dib]

Good lord, this. ^^

 

[deleted480308]

Virtually all of my friends in college drove at least once while they were questionable, and all of these people are leading healthy, productive lives, raising families, and being gainfully employed contributors in society.

^ You know who isn't leading a healthy productive life?.......everyone killed by a drunk driver. Forgive me for not bemoaning the damaged reputation of a drunk driver.

 

[Cmaster]

Good lord, this. ^^

lol

 

[pdxhopeful]

^ You know who isn't leading a healthy productive life?.......everyone killed by a drunk driver. Forgive me for not bemoaning the damaged reputation of a drunk driver.

Seconded. The rationalization of such things is mind-boggling to me, but then I'm not from a background where I could write such a thing off as 'a mistake' and expect a second shot. Driving is a dangerous enough activity fully sober, cell phone off and put away, etc.

 

[IlDestriero]

OMG, you mean if you're driving buzzed (intoxicated) and kill someone or several people, you might have to go to jail? WTF, it was like 2 (4) beers at happy hour. That's crazy man, you should just pay a fine or something and get on with your life...
My friend turned out fine without a dad, right?

 

[thefritz]

^ You know who isn't leading a healthy productive life?.......everyone killed by a drunk driver. Forgive me for not bemoaning the damaged reputation of a drunk driver.

Seconded. The rationalization of such things is mind-boggling to me, but then I'm not from a background where I could write such a thing off as 'a mistake' and expect a second shot. Driving is a dangerous enough activity fully sober, cell phone off and put away, etc.

Comments like these highlight my point perfectly. DUI is a black and white issue to a lot of people. You're either drunk driving or your sober. There is no middle ground. Someone at 0.09 is just as much of a killer as someone at 0.30. If you are involved in a traffic 'accident' and have alcohol in your system, it's the alcohol that is responsible, and it is the fault of the person who ingested the alcohol. The idea that accidents happen when alcohol is not involved is never taken into the equation. As far as the legal system, insurance companies, lawyers, employers, groups like MADD, and virtually anybody are concerned, if someone involved has any amount of alcohol in their system, the incident otherwise would not have happened. It is so incredibly easy to spin this issue, people can use language like in the comments above and there really isn't anything you can say. You put people's lives at risk so you could get a buzz. Selfish selfish selfish -- Getting a buzz even without driving is morally depraved enough! In the old days before MADD, people laughed at drunks who couldn't get their car doors opened and the cops would come and make somebody else drive them home. Now we throw them in prison for years. Having 'too much to drink' was something people shrugged at because it happens to most people once in a while and they do dumb stuff. Now when you have too much to drink and something happens, you're an 'alcoholic' and have an uncontrollable disease and are a danger to society (see south park's bloody mary episode for a comical satire on this topic). I think it's a good thing that the anti-drunk driving movement made people aware of the dangers and people stopped shrugging it off. This got most of the occasional drunks thinking twice and off the road. But now it's gotten out of hand and become a prohibitionist holier-than-thou movement aimed at demonizing people who use alcohol even socially. Slogans like "Buzzed driving is drunk driving." Well what about having one margarita and driving? Is that drunk driving? Some people think so. Some people scoff at me in disgust when I buy a 6 pack at the grocery store.

With all this in mind, if you've got 200 grand on the line and a promising future as a doctor, it's not worth the risk. The higher you are the farther you fall. The schadenfreude entertainment value of a doctor busted for DUI is irresistible to the media and preachy internet voices.

 

[pdxhopeful]

You're really proving my point there, actually.

I have no 'moral' problem with alcohol, but if you're going to drink at all someone else needs to do the driving exactly BECAUSE people 'do dumb stuff' when drunk, like try to drive. Part of driving is doing the right things yourself (obeying stop signs, etc.) but the other is reacting in a split-second to the often sudden or unexplained behavior of other drivers, pedestrians, etc. If another driver makes an error that's on them, but if you've been drinking and could not respond appropriately to stop the collision when you could have sober, you have contributed significantly to whatever damages occur.

 

[Mad Jack]

Remember, remember, the rescindment of november

The cat in the hat knows a lot about that!

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

"Getting a buzz even without driving is morally depraved enough!"

fritz er Carrie Nation- In my house moral depravity starts about 6 pm every night, depending on traffic. 5 pm on weekends.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Seconded. The rationalization of such things is mind-boggling to me, but then I'm not from a background where I could write such a thing off as 'a mistake' and expect a second shot. Driving is a dangerous enough activity fully sober, cell phone off and put away, etc.

Isnt that the point though? People do a ton of stupid crap while driving, I saw a dude shaving on the expressway once while driving. There are plenty of accidents where people die/sustain life changing injuries that occurred not because of alcohol but because of stupid decision making in another form, whether it be driving too fast, not minding weather conditions, trying to catch a traffic light, not maintaining proper upkeep of your vehicle, driving while very tired, distractions while driving(whether it be passengers, phones, food) etc. Yet we only demonize and single out one activity(maybe 2 if you count cell phones).

I say this as somebody who has never driven drunk but has caused an accident due to a poor decision on my part(basically, not minding the weather conditions). Thankfully nobody was hurt and it was a minor accident. But even if somebody died I still wouldnt have had my life legally ruined the way it would have been if it was caused by alcohol, and imo what I did(try to make too quick of a left hand turn out of a parking out and getting caught in the intersection on ice) was at least almost as bad as a decision as driving while over the legal limit. Yet I am not regarded as a monster.

 

[pdxhopeful]

Isnt that the point though? People do a ton of stupid crap while driving, I saw a dude shaving on the expressway once while driving. There are plenty of accidents where people die/sustain life changing injuries that occurred not because of alcohol but because of stupid decision making in another form, whether it be driving too fast, not minding weather conditions, trying to catch a traffic light, not maintaining proper upkeep of your vehicle, driving while very tired, distractions while driving(whether it be passengers, phones, food) etc. Yet we only demonize and single out one activity(maybe 2 if you count cell phones).

I say this as somebody who has never driven drunk but has caused an accident due to a poor decision on my part(basically, not minding the weather conditions). Thankfully nobody was hurt and it was a minor accident. But even if somebody died I still wouldnt have had my life legally ruined the way it would have been if it was caused by alcohol, and imo what I did(try to make too quick of a left hand turn out of a parking out and getting caught in the intersection on ice) was at least almost as bad as a decision as driving while over the legal limit. Yet I am not regarded as a monster.

Actually, I 'demonize' all those too (though, really, I find that term a bit of an exaggeration) though at least you can immediately put down the razor rather than having to wait to sober up. A moment's inattention is human enough and can be lethal on the road -as you nearly found out- so I accept few if any justifications for driving impaired, whether by alcohol or a phone or a passenger or whatever else, and upping the odds.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Actually, I 'demonize' all those too (though, really, I find that term a bit of an exaggeration) though at least you can immediately put down the razor rather than having to wait to sober up. A moment's inattention is human enough and can be lethal on the road -as you nearly found out- so I accept few if any justifications for driving impaired, whether by alcohol or a phone or a passenger or whatever else, and upping the odds.

But if we punished all those activities the way we punish DUIs, most of the population would either be in jail, broke from legal fees, or willingly abstaining from driving at all. Is drunk driving worse than the things I listed? It depends. In some cases certainly(repeat offender way over the limit vs. somebody getting distracted by a passenger) in other cases no not at all. Yet in some states if you get into a major accident caused by alcohol your life if not ruined is significantly altered, whereas if it was because you ran a red light there would be repercussions but they would be relatively minor in the long term and wont follow you around for the rest of your life.

 

[skm22]

Since the original poster wasn't looking for a moral judgment on getting a DUI I'll take a shot at it: At my school there is a lot of leeway for students who make illegal decisions followed by the good decision to get help. If you can show you learned something (more difficult with 2 DUIs but not impossible) via time without a DUI, time in AA with a sponsor to vouch for you, or some other demonstration of long-term sobriety then your med school may give you another chance. At my school we had a student get in a lot of trouble for drinking and they were allowed to stay but I don't know how much of it fell on the other side of the law. One student was caught synthesizing illegal drugs and was asked to leave but alcohol and nicotine seem to be the exception to every addiction rule. If it's not a felony it may not be mandatory to report, so if it were me I'd get an opinion from a lawyer. They may be able to tell you how all of this translates to residency. 10-20k as someone here estimated seems high to me but I can't say I have any authority on the law. Good luck to you. It is worth considering whether this pattern of drinking has made your life unmanageable. If it has then there are steps you can take to make it better. Take care.

 

[Muad'Dib]

I don't think that a 1st offence DUI necessarily constitutes a "pattern of drinking." I also don't think that people who have gotten a DUI have a drinking problem, which seems to be some sort of unspoken attitude. Repeat offenders, I think, are a different story. People make mistakes, especially young people, and we should remain cognizant of that.

 

[235009]

Your number one priority right now needs to be avoiding a conviction. It will cost you big time and you'll need to shell out as much money as is necessary. This is going to be an extremely costly mistake....whether it costs you your career or a few thousand dollars is up to you.

 

[michaelrack]

without giving any other information... If one were to be convicted of a 1st offense DUI as an MS1, would it destroy her chances for residency/could it result in expulsion from med school?

You probably would not be expelled. The DUI conviction would create barriers (not insurmountable) in state licensing. You probably will be able to get into some residency; not dermatology or rads

 

[prettyNURSEtoMD]

So I was in line at the cafe today next to said trauma Surgeon who I mentioned in another post that got 2 DUIs. He's such a cool dude. Still sober. Some people take this **** too far. He has not gotten any since he's been at my facility or in the past 10 years. People live and learn.

 

[thefritz]

IMO it's a little ridiculous that the DUI 'strategy' for medical professionals is to immediately declare oneself an alcoholic (thereby insinuating it wasn't your fault because you have a disease you are powerless over), go to AA/recovery, or even better go to one of the impaired physician bootcamps in Georgia or whereever they are these days, and never be seen publicly drinking alcohol again and center your life around your alcoholism and preach about your sobriety every day.

Getting one DUI does not mean you are an alcoholic or that you should never drink alcohol again because you can't control yourself. It means you got caught doing something really dumb most people who drink have done/will do at some point in their lives and you need to seriously re-evaluate your choices and make sure it doesn't happen again. I think it's completely BS that the only prayer these people have left of remaining in the jobs is to take the alcoholic/AA and expensive lawyer and rehab cop-out route. Sure, if you really are an addict fine. But most aren't. Suck it up, get some willpower and drink alcohol responsibly.

 

[pre med 2014]

Since the original poster wasn't looking for a moral judgment on getting a DUI I'll take a shot at it: At my school there is a lot of leeway for students who make illegal decisions followed by the good decision to get help. If you can show you learned something (more difficult with 2 DUIs but not impossible) via time without a DUI, time in AA with a sponsor to vouch for you, or some other demonstration of long-term sobriety then your med school may give you another chance. At my school we had a student get in a lot of trouble for drinking and they were allowed to stay but I don't know how much of it fell on the other side of the law. One student was caught synthesizing illegal drugs and was asked to leave but alcohol and nicotine seem to be the exception to every addiction rule. If it's not a felony it may not be mandatory to report, so if it were me I'd get an opinion from a lawyer. They may be able to tell you how all of this translates to residency. 10-20k as someone here estimated seems high to me but I can't say I have any authority on the law. Good luck to you. It is worth considering whether this pattern of drinking has made your life unmanageable. If it has then there are steps you can take to make it better. Take care.

I would be surprised if your medical school was engaged in illegal behavior. Since it is against the law to give preference to students affiliated with a religious institution, while discriminating against students in the exact same circumstances except who happen to seek help outside AA.

Outside of the legal matter it is curious that a medical institution dedicated to enquiry and the pursuit of scientific truth would provide leeway to the one program that has no scientific basis. AA does not record data to determine efficacy nor do they make changes to the program based on scientific results since they record no such results. In fact the 12 steps are written in stone and they cannot be changed regardless of scientific findings. You have to believe in God and the treatment plan NEVER changes. While truth is fluid, religion is stagnant.

 

[thefritz]

AA is a borderline cult. Yes, they actually do help true alcoholics who seriously cannot control themselves and want to be blackout drunk 24/7. But this is not most drunks. They also wrap up a lot of other people who just needed some discipline and convince them that they are worthless pieces of trash and must rely on a higher power to overcome their addiction, and they end up still letting their lives revolve around alcohol all because they got really drunk a few times back in 1972 and punched some dude or grabbed some girl's butt or something and they go to meetings and say i'm an alcoholic it's been 45 years since i've had a drink. Newsflash: You're not an alcoholic. You can have a beer and control yourself. Get over it.

 

[pre med 2014]

LOL" Hello my name is pre med and I got drunk in 1994 and touched a butt. Now the god damn government won't let me be a doctor! "