easier to earn $ going thourgh pHD in biomedical science path or DMD/DDS path?

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Is easier to earn $ going through pHD in biomedical science path or DMD/DDS path with 200K debt?

As I am applying for dental school this summer, this question constantly pop up in my mind since I was recently offered a spot in biomedical science. Master/pHD program. I already set my mind for dentistry in my jurnior yr. But somtimes it is hard to not regret that I could be financially better off if I take the master/pHD since I don't not have to repay 200k loan.

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Is easier to earn $ going through pHD in biomedical science path or DMD/DDS path with 200K debt?

As I am applying for dental school this summer, this question constantly pop up in my mind since I was recently offered a spot in biomedical science. Master/pHD program. I already set my mind for dentistry in my jurnior yr. But somtimes it is hard to not regret that I could be financially better off if I take the master/pHD since I don't not have to repay 200k loan.
Let me know whenever you find a career that "easy to earn $"
 
You know what, most people here will know nothing about career opportunities for a PhD. So you know more than me.
 
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Perhaps you should look more into the career path for bio PhD's. Schooling itself takes somewhere from 5-6 years these days, then you have to do a post-doc which can take another 3-4. Sure, you might not have any loans during school and you'll get about $20k as a stipend, but then the post-doc only pays around $45k. If you stay in academics, you're looking at maybe $60k/yr until you discover something awesome and get a lot of funding for you lab. Industry will start around $90k or so, but unless you get into management, you'll probably top out around $120k. Oh, and actually being really interested in science and being able to devote your life to research/development is kind of a necessity. Not really something to consider for most on a whim. Hope you're really good at writing too, because grant proposals and IRBs will become half your life.
 
then you have to do a post-doc which can take another 3-4.

That is entirely not true. You do not need to do a postdoc, nor do they take 3-4 years. Some can be a matter of months, some can go on for years. At any rate, you certainly do not need to do a postdoc.

Furthermore, many of the numbers you supplied are incorrect. I know two friends working towards their PhD who make more than $50k per year with their stipend.
 
That is entirely not true. You do not need to do a postdoc, nor do they take 3-4 years. Some can be a matter of months, some can go on for years. At any rate, you certainly do not need to do a postdoc.

Furthermore, many of the numbers you supplied are incorrect. I know two friends working towards their PhD who make more than $50k per year with their stipend.

If you hope to make it anywhere, post-docs are almost certainly required. The amount of competition in the biomedical sciences is overwhelming, there are pHDs out there pratically cleaning glassware.

And while I certainly believe you know some people bringing home big stipends, 2 data points an average does not make. Don't try to delude people into thinking a stipend that big is customary.
 
That is entirely not true. You do not need to do a postdoc, nor do they take 3-4 years. Some can be a matter of months, some can go on for years. At any rate, you certainly do not need to do a postdoc.

Furthermore, many of the numbers you supplied are incorrect. I know two friends working towards their PhD who make more than $50k per year with their stipend.

You NEED to do a post-doc if you're going to go into academia, but you're right, it is variable just as getting your degree is variable. Depends on your project and what you're working on. I guess if you're going to go into consulting or just want to be a glorified lab rat you won't have to do a post-doc, but even people going straight into industry pay their dues with the in-house post doc programs.

I don't know of any schools that pay $50k on top of your tuition, even super rich schools like UTSW only pay $25k. Maybe if you work for some hotshot PI in a HH lab, I guess that could happen. What school do your friends go to?

Either way, for the OP, unless he absolutely loves bio research, he shouldn't consider getting a PhD if money is his main concern. Money is beyond the point, it's the wonder of knowing the science and making significant discoveries that should drive you.
 
50K... your friends are lying to you. I know several people in PhD programs (UCLA, UPenn and Columbia) and all of them have comparable stipends ranging from 24-29K. And like others have mentioned you better be ready to do a post-doc and learn to like writing grant proposals (f*c*ing b*t*ch!!) and IRBs (F*cking hate these too). I guess there needs to be some sort of downside to a free education. Horay for GPs and IRBs!!
 
50K... your friends are lying to you. I know several people in PhD programs (UCLA, UPenn and Columbia) and all of them have comparable stipends ranging from 24-29K. And like others have mentioned you better be ready to do a post-doc and learn to like writing grant proposals (f*c*ing b*t*ch!!) and IRBs (F*cking hate these too). I guess there needs to be some sort of downside to a free education. Horay for GPs and IRBs!!
50k isn't that unbelievable, I know a guy who earned over 60k last year. But that was because of other research grants, usually the stipend is 20k-ish.... still not worth it considering all the time you spend in the lab.
 
If you hope to make it anywhere, post-docs are almost certainly required. The amount of competition in the biomedical sciences is overwhelming, there are pHDs out there pratically cleaning glassware.

The trick is to do a PhD in something useful. Both my friends are engineering PhDs.

And while I certainly believe you know some people bringing home big stipends, 2 data points an average does not make. Don't try to delude people into thinking a stipend that big is customary.

The poster I replied to was attempting to delude people. Go back and read what CrazySherm said (stating you implicitly need to do a postdoc, which is entirely not true). All I said I know two people working towards their PhD who make more than $50k a year.

If people choose to think my two data points are the trend that is their foolishness.
 
50K... your friends are lying to you.

They aren't. (a) you can negotiate your stipend amount with your supervisor (b) you can TA for extra money (c) you're forgetting about scholarships and most importantly (d) stipends are often dependent upon the project you are working for; it is extremely common for universities to work with industry, which results in these companies giving the lab a ridiculous amount of money.

Both friends of mine are in the UC system in Southern California. Trust me, there is not a set salary range for PhD students. If a lab really wants you, and you have the necessary skills you will work your way up in value. The suckers are the other kids who never ask for raises or negotiate with their supervisor.

$50k+/year is by no means unheard of for a PhD student doing something useful.
 
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50k isn't that unbelievable, I know a guy who earned over 60k last year. But that was because of other research grants, usually the stipend is 20k-ish.... still not worth it considering all the time you spend in the lab.


Thank you. I'm working my way down this thread, replying to the comments as I see them.

As I pointed out in an earlier reply to Columbia, salary often greatly depends on research grants. Companies working with Univerisities often spend a ton of money (better writing it off toward R&D than paying taxes) so $50k+ is by no means unheard of if you're doing a PhD in something useful.
 
I don't know of any schools that pay $50k on top of your tuition, even super rich schools like UTSW only pay $25k. Maybe if you work for some hotshot PI in a HH lab, I guess that could happen. What school do your friends go to?

Both are in the UC system in southern California with labs that have ties to industry.
 
The trick is to do a PhD in something useful. Both my friends are engineering PhDs.

That's great and all, but we're talking about bio PhDs since that's what the OP is asking about. Do you have any bio PhD friends making $50k while in school or not considering a post-doc when they finish school? Maybe you should re-read the whole thread before answering this time.
 
this thread is so pointless--especially bickering over how much a PhD student makes. most are broke. period.

there is a very high income potential in each field; however, i don't think anyone will argue that the average salary of a dentist is not only higher than PhD's but also easier to come by once you have your degree.

jb!🙂
 
But, there is a good point about not being in debt for school, and then for owning a practice.
 
this thread is so pointless--especially bickering over how much a PhD student makes. most are broke. period.

there is a very high income potential in each field; however, i don't think anyone will argue that the average salary of a dentist is not only higher than PhD's but also easier to come by once you have your degree.

jb!🙂

I always see them PhD folks drive around in their porsches and ferraris on sunset blvd. Also...PhD guys get more girls in general. :laugh:
 
Listen, Jeninny44 can't even get her DAT score straight, so I'm not going to even bother figuring out if he/she is telling the truth on this one.

Uh oh... here comes the inconsistent DAT score police....
Jeninny44 in a prior post....
"Wow. When I took the DAT in 2005 for the 2006-2007 cycle my 21 TS was 97th percentile. Looks like the competition is getting fiercer every year."
vs...
"I'm part of this exclusive 23+ club. By the way, the means *all* my scores were 23 and up. Very different than getting one good score in a section and a 18 on reading comprehension."

According to my DAT math prep... 23>21... aka... you lie...
zing!

:clap:

I think Jeninny44 needs to find something more productive than give people false hopes about making 50k+ while working toward a PhD. 99% of the time a PhD will take home a stipend around 27k.
 
Take it from somebody wrapping up a biosciences PhD at an Ivy League university who is now starting D school because of bleak job prospects in academia: newly minted PhDs outnumber available job openings by a good margin in most bio fields, and many very smart and hardworking young scientists find themselves doing a series of low-paid postdocs while hoping to eventually land a tenure-track job and get some research autonomy. You need to be very dedicated and willing to make a lot of personal sacrifices to make it. I can't imagine somebody who is motivated purely by money succeeding as a scientist... there are a million easier ways to go if that's what you want.
 
Is easier to earn $ going through pHD in biomedical science path or DMD/DDS path with 200K debt?

As I am applying for dental school this summer, this question constantly pop up in my mind since I was recently offered a spot in biomedical science. Master/pHD program. I already set my mind for dentistry in my jurnior yr. But somtimes it is hard to not regret that I could be financially better off if I take the master/pHD since I don't not have to repay 200k loan.

Dentistry makes more. I know PhDs and I know of the process. I have been in biomedical research at a cancer hospital for years now. I work with all PhDs, MDs and MD/PhDs. Dentists make more unless you are in a high executive position with a PhD. My friend is going into her first postdoc and though she doesn't have a ton of debt, she is only making 40K living in Boston (Postdoc at Harvard...not as hard as you think to get into as a postdoc) Even the best paying pharmaceutical jobs seem to average only 80K, far under the average for dentists. If you like research, stick with the PhD, but if you want to go with the money... dentistry is WITHOUT A DOUBT the way to go.
Plus, unless you work for NIH, it is a CONSTANT struggle to get funded for your research...tons of grant writing to have only 8% get funded. It's like dental school admissions EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE.
 
Thank you. I'm working my way down this thread, replying to the comments as I see them.

As I pointed out in an earlier reply to Columbia, salary often greatly depends on research grants. Companies working with Univerisities often spend a ton of money (better writing it off toward R&D than paying taxes) so $50k+ is by no means unheard of if you're doing a PhD in something useful.

This is false in every institution I am familiar with. Grad students working towards their PHDs in this part of the country are given one stipend depending on their department and how much funding the DEPARTMENT has to give out. I know of NO PhD students making more than 23K (at the hospital I am at) and 18K at the affiliated university. At least in Western NY, 50K is UNHEARD of even when you are postdocing.
 
That is entirely not true. You do not need to do a postdoc, nor do they take 3-4 years. Some can be a matter of months, some can go on for years. At any rate, you certainly do not need to do a postdoc.

Furthermore, many of the numbers you supplied are incorrect. I know two friends working towards their PhD who make more than $50k per year with their stipend.

They have supplemental income of some sort. I have NEVER heard of this...unless maybe you are in coastal CA where all jobs seem to pay ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!
 
They have supplemental income of some sort. I have NEVER heard of this...unless maybe you are in coastal CA where all jobs seem to pay ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!

Engineering PhD. I thought the OP was asking about PhDs in general, not just biological sciences. Engineering PhDs it is possible to make decent coin. Engineering students are the only PhD students I know. Bio PhD, probably not, based on what people have said here.
 
Engineering PhD. I thought the OP was asking about PhDs in general, not just biological sciences. Engineering PhDs it is possible to make decent coin. Engineering students are the only PhD students I know. Bio PhD, probably not, based on what people have said here.

I see. I can't speak for engineering because all of the PhDs I know are in the biomedical field and my brother who is an electrical engineer only has his BS (just last month his MBA also) and he has been making MAD money since he was 25.
 
Engineering PhD. I thought the OP was asking about PhDs in general, not just biological sciences. Engineering PhDs it is possible to make decent coin. Engineering students are the only PhD students I know. Bio PhD, probably not, based on what people have said here.

didn't you read the title of the thread???

to the OP - you have to make this decision on your own. go and observe both fields. many factors involved here industry PhD vs. academic PhD, lifestyle, interests, etc. $$ alone shouldn't be the only factor. Having said this, no PhD i know has done it for the $$. I admire the dedication of my friends who are pursuing PhD's, they seem to be OK with making what they make b/c they enjoy the intellectual challenges.
 
So what did you end up doing?
 
Plus, unless you work for NIH, it is a CONSTANT struggle to get funded for your research...tons of grant writing to have only 8% get funded. It's like dental school admissions EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE.

It's like dental school admissions EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE.

AMEN. you couldn't have said that better. peace out research. hello dentistry!!!!!!!
 
Is easier to earn $ going through pHD in biomedical science path or DMD/DDS path with 200K debt?

As I am applying for dental school this summer, this question constantly pop up in my mind since I was recently offered a spot in biomedical science. Master/pHD program. I already set my mind for dentistry in my jurnior yr. But somtimes it is hard to not regret that I could be financially better off if I take the master/pHD since I don't not have to repay 200k loan.

This thread is convincing evidence that most people on here don't have a clue about the nature of research or the employment aspects of a biomedical phd.
 
Isn't that how academic research keeps itself alfoat? With the wool over the eyes and everything?

Haha Armor you got it right on. 😀

I should add that my previous comment was not directed in a negative way to those who posted on this thread. There are just so many things people outside of the academic and those who haven't seen the real side of a phd program cannot possibly know. It's just that after going through so much, and then seeing the very naive question by the OP, I had to show a little sarcasm.
 
I am currently in a biomedical sciences program at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine. I am pursuing a master's degree but take classes with the pH D students. The stipend offered to pH D students at my institute is around 20k. The post-docs in my lab plan to spend approx. 2-3 years in this position and make around 35k. A new professor (associate professor having not yet received tenure) makes around 50k at my institute. According to regulations of the state (public university professors are employees of the state) a professor is permitted to give himself a raise (around 50%) when grant money is received from NIH. So a relatively new professor that is doing well in the research sector can make around 75k. Once a professor becomes tenured at my university they receive a salary around the low 100s. Becoming tenured is generally a lengthy process (7 years minimum to be eligible) and is acquired on average 10-20 years of good work (and good funding from NIH) for the university. So if a professor is tenured and receiving good funding from NIH, they will make around 150k. This is around the average dentist's salary, but the time commitment is much longer for a pH D and money is not a sure thing in this field. I know professors that have been with the university for over 15 years and still only make around 50k.
 
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I am currently in a biomedical sciences program at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine. I am pursuing a master's degree but take classes with the pH D students. The stipend offered to pH D students at my institute is around 20k. The post-docs in my lab plan to spend approx. 2-3 years in this position and make around 35k. A new professor (associate professor having not yet received tenure) makes around 50k at my institute. According to regulations of the state (public university professors are employees of the state) a professor is permitted to give himself a raise (around 50%) when grant money is received from NIH. So a relatively new professor that is doing well in the research sector can make around 75k. Once a professor becomes tenured at my university they receive a salary around the low 100s. Becoming tenured is generally a lengthy process (7 years minimum to be eligible) and is acquired on average 10-20 years of good work (and good funding from NIH) for the university. So if a professor is tenured and receiving good funding from NIH, they will make around 150k. This is around the average dentist's salary, but the time commitment is much longer for a pH D and money is not a sure thing in this field. I know professors that have been with the university for over 15 years and still only make around 50k.

This is a bit high from my experience. I think if everything goes well they might be around 100-110k, but 150k is too high. Most department chairs don't even earn that much. And you have to keep in mind that a lot of academic programs out there are gradually allocating more and more of the professors' salaries from their grants. Many institutions go as far as 80-90% of the entire salary. In the current grant atmosphere (probably won't get any better soon), you can see how undependable and pressurized this dependence is.

People also have to keep in mind how ridiculously long the training required and the slim chances for even this to occur. A typical biomedical PhD career goes something like this:

4 years of undergrad
6-7 years of PhD grad school training
at least one, probably two, sometimes thrre postdoctoral appointments each lasting ~4 years (thisis where most academic hopefuls get stalled in their careers. Many simply before permanent postdocs)

and then, if they are lucky (roughly 1 out of 6 hopefuls), they get offered an assistant professorship, where they:

1) Have roughly about 7 years to publish as many papers as they can to get tenure
2) Deal with departmental politics and get chained to their desks for at least 40 hours a week, alone (not taking into account teaching and possible experimentation), writing grants and always begging for money.
3) AND FINALLY, at the age of around 44-45, they go up for tenure review and 1/2 gets slashed down. This is at an age when scientists usually have small kids, a mortage, car payments, etc.

So you see, the average career trajectory for a Joe scientist is not even nearly as reasonable as a Joe dentist. Even a mediocre dentist can be his own boss, dictate his own schedule, and make good bank. A scientist simply has too many unpredictable factors and is a classic high risk/low reward career choice. In short, it is a gamble. I am not joking when I say that I personally know of more people whose lives are messed up by Science than by drugs. And even for an industry career path, the job prospects are abysmal as well. The figures cited above are also too high. An entry-level PhD job at Genentech (this is big company; smaller ones pay less) is about 60k, and this is for 6-7 years of PhD training and usually at least one postdoc as well. A typical job in biotech/pharma will last about two years--high volatility due to the nature of the field because of outsourcing, funding, etc. A Senior scientist will max out at about 100k but once laid off, will find it nearly impossible to get another job again due to age and salary history. Pfizer, for instance, just announced a 10% layoff of their research scientist force a couple of days ago.
 
Thats not true. A person with a BS will enter genentech at 60k. With a PhD you can easily start at 110k. If you are employed in biotech/pharma with a phd, you can very easily make 6 figs.
 
Thats not true. A person with a BS will enter genentech at 60k. With a PhD you can easily start at 110k. If you are employed in biotech/pharma with a phd, you can very easily make 6 figs.

facepalm-1.jpg
 
Thats not true. A person with a BS will enter genentech at 60k. With a PhD you can easily start at 110k. If you are employed in biotech/pharma with a phd, you can very easily make 6 figs.

Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble, but that's not the salaries offered at biotech companies nowadays. Starting at 110k for a PhD? I think not, and the only people I knew who were paid that much were the highest Senior Group Directors (around 125k) or the very top management positions. But most definitely--I repeat, most definitely--not for a PhD entry job person. If you don't believe someone who's been there, I don't know what else to say. If you are just pulling this off the web, then you must also believe that orthos on average make "only" 140k--these statistics are notoriously skewed and unreal.

A BS entering Genentech will not be making 60k either. Perhaps something like 45k (as a research associate) with benefits, and eventually, say after about 10-15 years (assuming he/she stays employed), will top off at 80k. Note that this is actually very good for a BA and at most biotech companies, BA's and Masters will have a LOT easier time finding a job than PhDs, who are overabundant from endogenous production and also, equally, from the flood of Chinese/Indian scientists. Now, a really good job for B.A.'s would be in sales--for some reason most companies pay their sales force ridiculously high for what they do.

People have this misconception that if you can get a job at Pharma/Biotech you'd strike it rich. Nothing can be further from the truth. This kind of misconception started back around 2000 when the human genome was getting fully sequenced and all of a sudden, very irrationally I might add, people started thinking that we have all we need to solve biomedical problems. The truth cannot be more disconnected. Science is not a simple matter of pumping X dollars into Y projects and you get Z drugs. If that were the case, considering the amount of funding we have had for cancer and HIV, these diseases would have been history already. The reality is that to make real inroads in biomedical science, and ultimately a feasible drug, requires at least 15-20 years of research, clinical trials, and tests. This is the way Science works, so inherently there is nothing wrong with that--except that when you consider form an employment and financial point of view, it's definitely not a bedrock of stability for its labor force.

Here is a recent article if you want to read about the state of the biotech industry: www.portfolio.com/news-markets/top-5/2009/01/19/Biotech-Boom-Finally-Peters-Out

Basically, the so-called "Biotech Century" that was predicted at the turn of the millenium is essentially gone. Investors are looking to make money, not to keep pouring billions of cash into a field that, up to now, has generated nothing but deficits and failed expectations. For the actual scientists involved, all of this simply means that a career in biomedical research may not be the wisest choice if financial compensation and employment stability is involved (which is why I got out and am willing to put up with more schooling for a different career). Like I said before, the average time span for a biotech job is about two years. In a small startup company, this is just about the burn rate of the initial VC funds before it either goes belly-up (90%) of the time, or until it gets bought out by a bigger company (who will most likely "streamline" staff anyways). In a larger company, funding and outsourcing issues produce the same instability. Ever noticed how so many pharma companies are moving shutting down their U.S. plants and moving them to China and India? There are hordes of foreign scientists there willing to work for cheaper and the drug development regulations there are more lax.

Getting a biotech job is also an extremely taxing business. Often times it has nothing to do with merit, but the so-called "internal references," meaning networking with friends and brownosing a lot of butt. To make things worse, because of the PhD glut many times you will be pressured into taking an underemployment offer, like a well-qualified PhD taking an industry postdoc job (around 45k) or a Research Associate job that is really intended for Masters people (because of a lack of PhD positions). And when you are (and you will) be laid off, you'd be competing with legions of other people, including fresh graduates, people moving laterally (i.e. fired as well), foreign scientists willing to work for a Green Card, etc. In my mind, this does not compare favorably with Dentistry. Even if the field gets "socialized" to a certain extent like medicine or in saturated areas, dentists can still make a modestly lucrative living and most of all, a stable existence.

In short, I think that it is ridiculous comparing the relative employment merits of a biomedical PhD vs. that of a DDS. It's not even close. Do science only if you can't think of anything else to do with your life. If you are looking for a well-paid career, that's the last place you'd want to go. Use some common sense here: Why else do you think people are willing to take out 200-300k in loans just to be a dentist? From a financial standpoint, this is simply a very sound investment for one's financial future, because dentistry is a well-compensated field. On the flip side, why do you think biomedical PhD programs have stipends and financial support? To put it bluntly, they need to do this to rope people in. Anytime an education is subsidized, take it as a sign that there is something really wrong with it. Otherwise, why would they do it?
 
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PhDs simply don't make anywhere close to what a professional degree makes, end of story.
 
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