ECFMG Certification Importance in Matching

[Cardiac Amyloidosis]

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I did not match this past season (international student) and of course, you always wonder why. I had a handful of interviews that I thought went well. However, I was not ECFMG certified (graduated in February of this year and couldn't get certified in time) at the time of ranking. Could this have affected me? Could being certified at the time of my next application possibly get me more interviews?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Animalcules]

I did not match this past fall (international student) and of course, you always wonder why. I had a handful of interviews that I thought went well. However, I was not ECFMG certified (graduated in February of this year and couldn't get certified in time) at the time of ranking. Could this have affected me? Could being certified at the time of my next application possibly get me more interviews?

Thanks in advance.

The short answer is yes. You would have gotten the interviews likely with having passed Step 1 and 2, but not having ECFMG certification at the time of ROL deadline may have pushed you off the rank list. The certificate is required to get a visa, license. Given that most programs know how much time certification can take, it may be too risky for them. I know of one program where I didn't get an interview because my certification was delayed until the end of November, but I got plenty of invites with just having fulfilled the requirements for ECFMG.


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[Cardiac Amyloidosis]

The short answer is yes. You would have gotten the interviews likely with having passed Step 1 and 2, but not having ECFMG certification at the time of ROL deadline may have pushed you off the rank list. The certificate is required to get a visa, license. Given that most programs know how much time certification can take, it may be too risky for them. I know of one program where I didn't get an interview because my certification was delayed until the end of November, but I got plenty of invites with just having fulfilled the requirements for ECFMG.


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Oh so it doesn't really affect the number of interviews you get but possibly whether you get ranked or not? How did you know that one program didn't interview you because you were not certified. Lastly, how many weeks did it take with your 'delay', I believe I was told 4-8 weeks.

Thank you.

 

[Animalcules]

Oh so it doesn't really affect the number of interviews you get but possibly whether you get ranked or not? How did you know that one program didn't interview you because you were not certified. Lastly, how many weeks did it take with your 'delay', I believe I was told 4-8 weeks.

Thank you.

1. It may also affect the number of interviews you get, but this is impossible to quantify. I ended up at my dream program anyway, so I would say it doesn't matter too much. If some programs care so much as to not even interview you, their loss.
2. Connections.
3. I had all requirements around Oct 1, certified end of November.


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[rokshana]

1. It may also affect the number of interviews you get, but this is impossible to quantify. I ended up at my dream program anyway, so I would say it doesn't matter too much. If some programs care so much as to not even interview you, their loss.
2. Connections.
3. I had all requirements around Oct 1, certified end of November.


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You are confusing "verified" with "certified"...you need to be Ecfmg verified by the time the ROL is due meaning passed steps 1, ck, and cs...verified means you have graduated and have diploma in hand...VERY few programs require Ecfmg certification to apply or rank...they basically don't want any I/fmgs since you would have to have graduated the year before.

 

[Animalcules]

You are confusing "verified" with "certified"...you need to be Ecfmg verified by the time the ROL is due meaning passed steps 1, ck, and cs...verified means you have graduated and have diploma in hand...VERY few programs require Ecfmg certification to apply or rank...they basically don't want any I/fmgs since you would have to have graduated the year before.

I am not confusing the two. Some programs don't interview you unless you are certified (as I said, few, but big ones), many more certainly don't rank you to match unless you have your ECFMG certificate. ECFMG verification is required to participate in the nrmp match. It has nothing to do with your ability to get interviews or being ranked to match by individual programs.


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[rokshana]

I am not confusing the two. Some programs don't interview you unless you are certified (as I said, few, but big ones), many more certainly don't rank you to match unless you have your ECFMG certificate. ECFMG verification is required to participate in the nrmp match. It has nothing to do with your ability to get interviews or being ranked to match by individual programs.


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please show me more than 3 in IM...i've seen maybe 1 place and they don't require it anymore.

 

[Sea_Bass]

You do NOT need to be ECFMG certified when you apply to residencies. It will NOT help you one bit.

I should know. I've gone through the match twice. I'm a US-IMG (from one of the big 4 carib schools). I was ECFMG certified both times I was in the match and the first time I was in the match I thought it would help me so much and give me this huge advantage over all the IMGs. But residency programs don't care! All they care about is whether or not you WILL get ECFMG certified before you start at their program.

The vast majority of programs who are even willing to look at IMGs in the first place understand that most applicants will not have their ECFMG at the time of application and they don't give it any weight at all.

Plus, once you have the certificate, then they're going to ask, "So what have you been doing with your time now that you've graduated?" It opens a whole other can of worms.

OP: You are doing the right thing by examining why you didn't match and trying to address your weaknesses. However, not being ECFMG certified isn't one of them.

 

[Animalcules]

You do NOT need to be ECFMG certified when you apply to residencies. It will NOT help you one bit.

I should know. I've gone through the match twice. I'm a US-IMG (from one of the big 4 carib schools). I was ECFMG certified both times I was in the match and the first time I was in the match I thought it would help me so much and give me this huge advantage over all the IMGs. But residency programs don't care! All they care about is whether or not you WILL get ECFMG certified before you start at their program.

The vast majority of programs who are even willing to look at IMGs in the first place understand that most applicants will not have their ECFMG at the time of application and they don't give it any weight at all.

Plus, once you have the certificate, then they're going to ask, "So what have you been doing with your time now that you've graduated?" It opens a whole other can of worms.

OP: You are doing the right thing by examining why you didn't match and trying to address your weaknesses. However, not being ECFMG certified isn't one of them.

I'm an FMG, matched into IM this year. As stated above, my experience is different. Most programs don't care to give out interviews (some however do), but they do care when making their final ROL.

Take it or leave it.

 

[rokshana]

I'm an FMG, matched into IM this year. As stated above, my experience is different. Most programs don't care to give out interviews (some however do), but they do care when making their final ROL.

Take it or leave it.

yet, you can't (or won't) give concrete examples or even 3 (which still is not the vast majority of programs) places that specifically stated that they will not invite or rank an applicant without certification....realize that every IMG who is applying in their 4th year does NOT have ECFMG certification...they can't since they have not graduated...and every MATCHED IMG applying in their 4 year did not have ECFMG certification when they matched...again because they have no diploma and therefore cannot BE certified...

your OPINION that MOST programs will not interview an F/IMG because they are not ECFMG certified is incorrect and not at all helpful (and more than misleading) to those coming to sdn looking for advice.

 

[Animalcules]

your OPINION that MOST programs will not interview an F/IMG because they are not ECFMG certified is incorrect and not at all helpful

I never said that. You can capitalize words as much as you want, it doesn't change my advice. Yes, I will not post concrete examples/ program names on this board as I shouldn't have gotten this information in the first place. Just keep in mind that there is a difference between what programs may state on their website and the rules they play by.

My simple advice is that if you have a chance to get ECFMG certified early during application season, you will likely benefit. To state that there is no benefit is bad advice, I have nothing to gain here except for describing my personal experience this year. Again, please read what I have written, don't make assumptions and misquote me. Of course you can match without an ECFMG certificate, but you may be limiting your number of interviews and possibly compromise your position on the final ROL submitted by the program. You will not be able to quantify this. So yeah, it is an opinion based on personal experience, just as much as yours. Take it or leave it.

 

[rokshana]

I never said that. You can capitalize words as much as you want, it doesn't change my advise. Yes, I will not post concrete examples/ program names on this board as I shouldn't have gotten this information in the first place. Just keep in mind that there is a difference between what programs may state on their website and the rules they play by.

My simple advice is that if you have a chance to get ECFMG certified early during application season, you will likely benefit. To state that there is no benefit is bad advise, I have nothing to gain here except for describing my personal experience this year. Again, please read what I have written, don't make assumptions and misquote me. Of course you can match without an ECFMG certificate, but you may be limiting your number of interviews and possibly compromise your position on the final ROL submitted by the program. You will not be able to quantify this. So yeah, it is an opinion based on personal experience, just as much as yours. Take it or leave it.

there is no benefit since every, yes EVERY 4th year student applying to residencies cannot do this...they do not have a diploma to do so...what part of that do you not get?

as for someone who has already graduated from medical school, being certified is an easy process...you file the paperwork and you are done (frankly, applying for a US residency without having done this is piss poor planning)...if you are an FMG, already graduated, and visa needing, then there are a lot more issues that you need to be concerned about to make you a more competitive applicant.

 

[Animalcules]

what part of that do you not get?

let's just stop. i have said everything i could add to this discussion. your n=1 is clearly superior to my n=1.

 

[Sea_Bass]

OP: The bottom line is that you weren't ECFMG certified this time around. Next time you will be. Nothing you can do about it.

I wish I could say that was the only reason you didn't match, but regardless of who you choose to listen to, the most likely scenario is that there were many factors that led to you not matching. The real challenge will be for you to identify these factors and improve on them. Don't waste too much time on this ECFMG issue. There's nothing you can do to change it.

 

[rokshana]

let's just stop. i have said everything i could add to this discussion. your n=1 is clearly superior to my n=1.

n=458 (that's the number of people who matched in my graduating class-none of whom were ECFMG certified )

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You're both right, to some extent. Many (if not most) IMG's match without full ECFMG certification. However, some programs may want the full certification prior to ranking / interview. Why? If a PD takes an IMG who then runs into delays in getting ECFMG, then that delays visas, etc, can run into a really late start. Once that happens once, PD's may tend to avoid it in the future. Same with someone who says they will be a citizen by marriage -- I've seen that take 6-9 months to process, and I'm never making that mistake again.

So, bottom line, most residencies won't care and will take you with just ECFMG verification. More competitive fields / programs, or perhaps programs that have been burned in the past, may prefer full ECFMG certification. It's a double edged sword though - if you're certified, it means you have a longer break in your training which may be seen as a negative. The "sweet spot" would be graduating in December -- then you'd be certified, be able to interview freely in Jan and Feb, start in July, and not have a long break.

 

[Cardiac Amyloidosis]

You're both right, to some extent. Many (if not most) IMG's match without full ECFMG certification. However, some programs may want the full certification prior to ranking / interview. Why? If a PD takes an IMG who then runs into delays in getting ECFMG, then that delays visas, etc, can run into a really late start. Once that happens once, PD's may tend to avoid it in the future. Same with someone who says they will be a citizen by marriage -- I've seen that take 6-9 months to process, and I'm never making that mistake again.

So, bottom line, most residencies won't care and will take you with just ECFMG verification. More competitive fields / programs, or perhaps programs that have been burned in the past, may prefer full ECFMG certification. It's a double edged sword though - if you're certified, it means you have a longer break in your training which may be seen as a negative. The "sweet spot" would be graduating in December -- then you'd be certified, be able to interview freely in Jan and Feb, start in July, and not have a long break.

I assume doing research/externships for a gap are acceptable, but what about working full-time and making money to help your family out? Also, how much of a boost is applying with Step 3 completed?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

There's no answers to your questions. I know you want a solid answer, but there isn't one. Will Step 3 help your application? Assuming you don't need an H visa (for which it is usually required), probably not that much. But if you totally rock it compared with Step 2, perhaps it will help. If you fail it, that will certainly hurt you. So personally I think there is more downside than upside, but perhaps some programs will care.

Working to make money is fine, and totally understandable. But programs will assume that your skills will be atrophying. Which they will be -- you may not think so, but they do. I do less clinical work during interview season (Nov-Jan) and I can sense that I'm not as sharp once I get back to work.

 

[Cardiac Amyloidosis]

There's no answers to your questions. I know you want a solid answer, but there isn't one. Will Step 3 help your application? Assuming you don't need an H visa (for which it is usually required), probably not that much. But if you totally rock it compared with Step 2, perhaps it will help. If you fail it, that will certainly hurt you. So personally I think there is more downside than upside, but perhaps some programs will care.

Working to make money is fine, and totally understandable. But programs will assume that your skills will be atrophying. Which they will be -- you may not think so, but they do. I do less clinical work during interview season (Nov-Jan) and I can sense that I'm not as sharp once I get back to work.

So it may be better to avoid writing step 3, even if I can, until getting a residency acceptance so that I 'just have to pass'?

Also, when someone is doing clinical research their skills for the most part are 'atrophying' also are they not?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So it may be better to avoid writing step 3, even if I can, until getting a residency acceptance so that I 'just have to pass'?

Also, when someone is doing clinical research their skills for the most part are 'atrophying' also are they not?

Yes.

 

[DrKabi]

So it may be better to avoid writing step 3, even if I can, until getting a residency acceptance so that I 'just have to pass'?

Also, when someone is doing clinical research their skills for the most part are 'atrophying' also are they not?

It's still worth clearing step 3 if you can before the start of intern year. It's an exam that's easy to ace in my opinion the sooner you take it after CK . Also if you do really well it becomes a positive on your application especially if you take it after being away from clinical practice doing research like was my case. It will speak positively of your ability to return to clinical thinking and that sort of thing after a long break .

 

[rokshana]

It's still worth clearing step 3 if you can before the start of intern year. It's an exam that's easy to ace in my opinion the sooner you take it after CK . Also if you do really well it becomes a positive on your application especially if you take it after being away from clinical practice doing research like was my case. It will speak positively of your ability to return to clinical thinking and that sort of thing after a long break .

Hmmm...if I had to listen to anyone's advice it would be an actual PD...