ECs for Residency

[Dr. Scribe]

How important are ECs for matching into a desired a residency?

Let's say that to get into medical school there is the following distribution of importance: 50% MCAT, 30% GPA, 20% ECs.

What would the distribution look like for Residency with Steps, Grades, and ECs?

Also, if one continues an EC from pre-med through medical school, can one put that on a residency app (similarly to how one can use a high school EC on a med school app if one continues it through UG)?

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[Frogger27]

EC's don't matter too much. Step score 1 score >> Third year grades >>> AOA/Research/LORs >>>> something that may make you interesting, but besides that it probably doesn't matter too much

 

[Redpancreas]

How important are ECs for matching into a desired a residency?

Let's say that to get into medical school there is the following distribution of importance: 50% MCAT, 30% GPA, 20% ECs.

What would the distribution look like for Residency with Steps, Grades, and ECs?

Also, if one continues an EC from pre-med through medical school, can one put that on a residency app (similarly to how one can use a high school EC on a med school app if one continues it through UG)?

@Frogger27 : I don’t think Step score is “>>>” clinical grades. I know classmates with a Step 1 scores 15-20 points lower than mine getting similar interviews because they honored IM and I HP’ed. Also, my opinion is useless but let it be known that I think AOA is useless as it adds nothing. It’s subjective and consistent across schools and that in addition to GHHS is just another thing that promotes candidates who are good at promoting themselves and winning popularity contests.
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ECs do matter a bit but let’s just say they won’t be looked at until your Step scores check out and the selection committee likes your clinical grades and evaluations and feels you’re a fit (based off research, evals, etc.). When your file comes to the interview stage, good programs will try to get to know you and mention ECs but they’re not large factors. If you insist on a % I’d say 5%. Some are valued more than others. A Class President/committed athlete/etc. would mean more than other things and could elevate to a tier 2 factor if the stars align the program is seeking something like that (but again your step scores and clinical grades have to check out).

Even if one doesn’t continue an activity into residency, it goes into your ERAS. 50% of my activities were pre-med school and they played a significant role in my branding for interviews. People include tons of their gap year(s) stuff so you should not feel shy about bringing your pre-med stuff in especially if you came right through.

 

[Lya]

It heavily depends on which specialty you are applying to.

For competitive specialties, everyone has a good application. Sometimes ECs are the ones that can help determine who’s a more memorable/interesting candidate and thus gets ranked higher.

ECs are not important if you have low scores and etc to begin with, but they become important once everything else is solid and ECs are the only thing that’s left.

 

[Donald Juan]

Most of the ECs that might make you actually stand out are not things you could (or should) just go do for a resume booster. Things like playing Div 1 sports or being a war veteran are the type of things that might make you actually stand out from the crowd. Still, these won't compensate for poor academic performance, they might just give a slight edge when two similar candidates are being compared.

Outside of that, its good to have interests on your app just to give you some things to talk about with interviewers outside of "why I choose PM&R."

 

[theonlytycrane]

you all still aren't volunteering clinically and non-clinically while also serving soup to the underserved 2x /wk as med students!?

 

[naijacardriodoc]

you all still aren't volunteering clinically and non-clinically while also serving soup to the underserved 2x /wk as med students!?

hahaha

 

[failedatlife]

98% Step 1. 1.9% School name. 0.1% Research (essentially fodder for the interview so it ends up counting for something, or a joke on you type of deal where they mock you because the kid ahead of you did absolutely no research but haha we are gonna rank him higher than you because his step crushed yours). 0.00% ECs.

 

[zero0]

98% Step 1. 1.9% School name. 0.1% Research (essentially fodder for the interview so it ends up counting for something, or a joke on you type of deal where they mock you because the kid ahead of you did absolutely no research but haha we are gonna rank him higher than you because his step crushed yours). 0.00% ECs.

My mentally deranged colleague is remarkably on point

 

[Tenk]

They only matter if they match the interest of the person interviewing you so you can both talk about a co-interest.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Most of the ECs that might make you actually stand out are not things you could (or should) just go do for a resume booster. Things like playing Div 1 sports or being a war veteran are the type of things that might make you actually stand out from the crowd. Still, these won't compensate for poor academic performance, they might just give a slight edge when two similar candidates are being compared.

Outside of that, its good to have interests on your app just to give you some things to talk about with interviewers outside of "why I choose PM&R."

What if academics are at the acceptable level (on par with applicants, maybe bit below on boards) but ECs are very strong? Ex: International level athletics, self-funding oneself through med school via business, few pubs, lots of fillers etc.

 

[Donald Juan]

What if academics are at the acceptable level (on par with applicants, maybe bit below on boards) but ECs are very strong? Ex: International level athletics, self-funding oneself through med school via business, few pubs, lots of fillers etc.

Not sure what the question is. If your academics are enough to get you considered for an interview, having a very interesting story and background like that could help you to stand out a little in the interviews. If your stuff is a little below average I still wouldn't expect you to be getting interviews at top programs because of your ECs.

 

[SpecializedSurgeon]

Not sure what the question is. If your academics are enough to get you considered for an interview, having a very interesting story and background like that could help you to stand out a little in the interviews. If your stuff is a little below average I still wouldn't expect you to be getting interviews at top programs because of your ECs.

This is on point.

We use a formula for an initial ranking of everyone we look at (which oddly enough doesn’t factor into the final ranking), and extracurricular activities essentially account for about 10% of that score. And you don’t get the full score in that area unless you were a leader (eg the kids signing up for every interest group but not really getting involved wouldn’t get these points)
That said, if some basic criteria aren’t met (eg step 1 score, class rank, etc), that application isn’t on the scoring list — so as stated, it’s more of an “icing on the cake” situation.

 

[Say]

90% Step 1 + AOA, 8% school name, 2% EC's -> gets you in the door. Grades do not matter unless you are AOA, PhD is significant booster if competitive field. All top 5 medical schools' students will match in their desired specialty.

On interview day: Often only thing that matters is how much they like you; application is what got you in the door.

 

[sliceofbread136]

98% Step 1. 1.9% School name. 0.1% Research (essentially fodder for the interview so it ends up counting for something, or a joke on you type of deal where they mock you because the kid ahead of you did absolutely no research but haha we are gonna rank him higher than you because his step crushed yours). 0.00% ECs.

How are the ent interviews coming along?

 

[guytakingboards]

Maybe it's my inherent bias as someone who didn't do a lot of EC's in med school, but when I review applicant packets the EC's usually don't get a real in depth look. The only time its really notable for me is when somebody literally does nothing. Otherwise most of the "AMWA vice president/social chair/secretary" stuff gets old fast.

 

[Newyawk]

Might be a stupid Q but is research considered an EC?

 

[Redpancreas]

How are the ent interviews coming along?

I take it not well if his coping mechanisms haven’t changed unless he’s waiting in the weeds preparing to be the “against all odds” story of a sub-230 candidate matching ENT so he can gain SDN fandom, start his own AMA, etc.

In all seriousness @failedatlife I hope you’re healthy and if ENT doesn’t seem realistic at this point, I hope you’ve established a plan B that you can be proud of. I recommend IM/GS with fellowship options open. Emergency would also be a solid choice.

 

[Redpancreas]

Also I see people posting formulas with 90%+ Step 1 and I really don’t know if people are using hyperbole as a form of humor or if they genuinely believe that that’s the case. Step 2 CK matters just as much as does honoring your field of interest and having overall decent clinical grades and a good class rank. School name also plays a large role as you can’t deny the edge that gives some average performing candidates at top vs mid/lower tier schools. Whatever... maybe my perception’s skewed as my Step 1 was my only clear strength with average other stuff and I’m living that right now. The way I see it is a sub-220/230 Step 1 can really hurt you (as in screen you out at upper tier places and mid tiers in competitive locations) and I guess that’s where people get 90%+ from but once you hit 240s and higher, I think aforementioned factors become much larger factors. Of course that's not to say 240 vs. 270 is the same. That 260/270 will still stick out in a good way, but I'd rather have 240-250 step scores and honors in IM than 260-270 Step scores with a HP

 

[Newyawk]

Also I see people posting formulas with 90%+ Step 1 and I really don’t think that’s the case. Step 2 CK matters just as much as does honoring your field of interest and having overall decent clinical grades and a good class rank. School name also plays a large role as you can’t deny the edge that gives some average performing candidates at top vs mid/lower tier schools. Whatever... maybe my perception’s skewed as my Step 1 was my only clear strength with average other stuff and I’m living that right now. The way I see it is a sub-220/230 Step 1 can really hurt you and I guess that’s where people get 90%+ from but once you hit 240s and higher, I think aforementioned factors become much larger factors.

Idk anything about the match but i would suspect that 90% step 1 is overblown. Most people discuss cut-offs. So yea, if you have a 200 youll probably be screened out of most competitive specialties/hospitals. But just saying 90% step 1 implies that a 270 with nothing else would match better than a 240 with a stacked app. It just cant be true. If it is, then the match needs some serious reform.

 

[operaman]

I think these are tough questions to answer and especially difficult if not impossible to assign a numeric value. Too many variables:

1) desired field
2) type of program (research heavy vs community)
3) bias of faculty reviewers
4) stage of the application process
5) exact nature of the ecs themselves
6) personality of the applicant
7) overall application and story
8) what your competition has
Etc.

As an interviewer, one of the ONLY things I look at is ECs, hobbies, research. I did not look at boards or grades even one time for one applicant. But obviously those things matter, but I know those numbers dont tell me squat about what sort of resident you’ll be and i assume our faculty have already weeded out unacceptably low numbers and other academic red flags. So the kid with nothing but boards and research may rack up tons of interviews, but would have probably had a lackluster interview with me with little else to talk about. Unless they had a great personality and were super interesting anyhow. See, this is incredibly hard to generalize.

My advice is usually this: do things you care about. You don’t need to do things besides research just to check boxes. But you need to do things. Your ECs will almost never make up for unacceptable (for that field) academic performance, I think that is fairly undisputed. That programs will also tend to interview and rank what they perceive as the best applicants they can get is also not disputed.

Perhaps the biggest thing that gets missed in discussing ECs is the innate academic ability of the student. The student struggling to make it does not have the time to devote to many other projects while the more gifted students do. This is why we actually review applications rather than just interviewing the top 40 step scores - the score is just a part of the overall story and has to be taken in context. I think we all understand that even if it’s easy to lose sight of it. So, if you have the ability, don’t just Netflix away all your free time. If you don’t, then obviously academics have to come first.

 

[Frazier]

Depends in the specialty and what programs are selecting for in their cohort.

 

[naijacardriodoc]

Are ec’s important for anesthesiology?


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[504196]

I know this is not related to ECs, but how important are away rotations for matching at desired programs? I've heard they can make up for an average application. And I know the importance of aways really depends on the field you're applying to. Just curious what people think.

 

[operaman]

I know this is not related to ECs, but how important are away rotations for matching at desired programs? I've heard they can make up for an average application. And I know the importance of aways really depends on the field you're applying to. Just curious what people think.

My experience these past few cycles are that they hurt more applicants than they help. We don’t auto-interview rotators either, so it’s pretty easy to see the small fraction that ultimately get invited, maybe 10 to 20%. That said, the rotators who do interview tend to match here and 40 to 60% of each class was a prior rotator.

If, and it’s a big if, you are someone who truly gets along well with people and does well clinically, then you may be someone for whom an away can help compensate for a more average application otherwise. Much if what we want to know from your app is what sort of resident you will be, so if you’ve already shown yourself to be great, that goes a long way. A lot of people lack self awareness though and don’t realize they come across poorly. A month is also a long time to be on and it only takes one bad interaction to sink you.

I’ve yet to understand the importance of aways to a whole field. With the exception of EM that I believe requires structured letters from multiple programs, I don’t know how other programs can even tell you did one. I’ve interviewed candidates and never could find the away rotation list in ERAS, and many people don’t ask for letters from aways if they already have super strong writers at their program who know them better. So unless you rotate early and get a letter nd maybe even mention it in your PS, I don’t think programs will even know you did any others.

 

[failedatlife]

How are the ent interviews coming along?

I have been (and will continue) to try my best with what I have been given. I know what I did to myself, and I will live with the consequences of it. Either way I do anticipate ending my term on this website on March 16th regardless of the results. I know a lot of people will be happy to hear that. Best of luck to you!

 

[68PGunner]

I have been (and will continue) to try my best with what I have been given. I know what I did to myself, and I will live with the consequences of it. Either way I do anticipate ending my term on this website on March 16th regardless of the results. I know a lot of people will be happy to hear that. Best of luck to you!

Don’t leave dude. I’ll miss you. You’re always good for a laugh or two.

 

[ortnakas]

I have been (and will continue) to try my best with what I have been given. I know what I did to myself, and I will live with the consequences of it. Either way I do anticipate ending my term on this website on March 16th regardless of the results. I know a lot of people will be happy to hear that. Best of luck to you!

Have you been getting interviews? If so, I really do hope they’re going well. And no matter what happens I’d be interested to see what you do post-Match Day, since the world actually isn’t ending after March 16.