ED Doc Refering patients to self?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

The Knife & Gun Club

EM/CCM Attending, Finally.
7+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
3,091
Reaction score
6,318
Sorry to bother you all - had a question about a rather “unique” practice structure I ran across on my recent family medicine rotation. Main question was if this is legal.

One of the FM preceptors is an EM boarded doc, about 4 years out of residency, who sees patients at the local hospital ED. He also owns an Urgent Care down the street. Whenever he gets a patient in the ED who doesn’t have a PCP, he tells them to follow up with him at the urgent care and takes them on as their PCP. In reality they don’t see him, they see one of several NPs he employs.

He also diagnosed a lot of incidental cases of skin cancer (mostly SCC) in the ED and refers the patients to himself for Mohs Surgery (which he does in the urgent care).

I guess my questions were:
1) can an ED doc refer patients to themselves or a facility they own?

2) can an EM physician act as a PCP, managing things like DM, HTN, psych, etc?

3) can an EM physician perform Mohs surgery?

Thanks in advance for your time.
 
Sorry to bother you all - had a question about a rather “unique” practice structure I ran across on my recent family medicine rotation. Main question was if this is legal.

One of the FM preceptors is an EM boarded doc, about 4 years out of residency, who sees patients at the local hospital ED. He also owns an Urgent Care down the street. Whenever he gets a patient in the ED who doesn’t have a PCP, he tells them to follow up with him at the urgent care and takes them on as their PCP. In reality they don’t see him, they see one of several NPs he employs.

He also diagnosed a lot of incidental cases of skin cancer (mostly SCC) in the ED and refers the patients to himself for Mohs Surgery (which he does in the urgent care).

I guess my questions were:
1) can an ED doc refer patients to themselves or a facility they own?

2) can an EM physician act as a PCP, managing things like DM, HTN, psych, etc?

3) can an EM physician perform Mohs surgery?

Thanks in advance for your time.
1) Yes as long as the patients know that the doctor in question will make money off of the referral. In this case that seems pretty clearly stated "Make an appointment at my office for follow up". Back in the days when EDs were staffed by the local FPs/internists this was very common.

2) Yes assuming they have the training which as this doc is FM trained seems likely

3) Legally yes. Ethically, probably not. My license is to practice medicine and surgery. Full stop. I can do anything so long as there are no problems. The instant there is a problem, I'm screwed if I do something beyond my training.
 
There's a lot of ethical conundrums here.
First, the ability to do a procedure or manage chronic medical conditions isn't controlled by board certification. It's controlled by credentials and the ability to get malpractice insurance.
I'm not even sure how somebody would do MOHS in an urgent care, since you need a pathologist to be reading slides.
It runs the risk of being a Stark violation for self referral, but if he gives them other options including his own clinic it isn't quite as cut and dried.
 
Unless he's the only doc in town, this is a violation of the Frank-Stark law and he will likely find himself in trouble in the near future.
Which parts are violations? Referral to PCP services are not part of the banned self-referral on the list I was reading, and from what I am reading anything the doctor does himself, as opposed to having other employees or members of a practice do, are not banned. What from the description above is a Stark violation?
 
Even Wikipedia has this as the first line: Stark Law is a set of United States federal laws that prohibit physician self-referral, specifically a referral by a physician of a Medicare or Medicaid patient to an entity providing designated health services ("DHS") if the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship with that entity.

Stark Act Violations | Self Referral Fraud | Rabon Law Firm | North Ca

Referring to your own clinic is a violation.
Nah.

Otherwise every physician owned surgery center would be closed.

In this case, you word it as "you need outpatient follow up. I have a clinic that would love to help you manage this, here is our phone number".
 
Nah.

Otherwise every physician owned surgery center would be closed.

In this case, you word it as "you need outpatient follow up. I have a clinic that would love to help you manage this, here is our phone number".

There's a difference between referring patients from a hospital to your practice and surgery center than a patient being referred by another physician and surgery is done at your surgery center.

In the past -- although I think the restrictions have been relaxed -- physicians have had to have separate corporations for their labs and such.
 
I don't want to derail this conversation (quite interested in the OP's queries) and so I hope this addition doesn't distract, but adds:

Does Stark only apply to government-funded patients (ie Medicaid/Medicare)? My understanding is that Stark is like EMTALA: for Medicare patient but de-facto for all. Am I wrong? (likely, since I not knowledgeable here)

Thanks, HH
 
Insurance companies don't care.
CMS sort of cares.
Still no answer on how that person is actually doing MOHS though.
 
Not a lawyer, and not particularly knowledgeable about this issue, but it seems that Stark has a few key exceptions, most importantly the first one:

(b)General exceptions to both ownership and compensation arrangement prohibitionsSubsection (a)(1) shall not apply in the following cases:
physicians’ services (as defined in section 1395x(q) of this title) provided personally by (or under the personal supervision of) another physician in the same group practice (as defined in subsection (h)(4)) as the referring physician.
42 U.S. Code § 1395nn - Limitation on certain physician referrals

It seems from reading about this that the you would be in trouble for sending a patient to get a CT scan at a radiology facility you own or one you are getting kickbacks from. Or for referring them to some other practice that you are getting kickbacks from. But not from referring them to yourself or someone else in your own practice. So it doesn't sound like what he is doing is illegal. However, very confused about him doing Mohs. That seems questionable (regardless of how those patients ended up in his practice).
 
Wow thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - I really appreciate it.

As for the Mohs surgeries I was quite confused myself. The physician is EM boarded and did an EM residency - so no FM background to explain it. He told me he picked up the skill doing a derm elective durring residency. As for the pathology part he checks the margins himself.

I guess this falls into one of the category of legal but running a large malpractice risk.
 
Wow thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - I really appreciate it.

As for the Mohs surgeries I was quite confused myself. The physician is EM boarded and did an EM residency - so no FM background to explain it. He told me he picked up the skill doing a derm elective durring residency. As for the pathology part he checks the margins himself.

I guess this falls into one of the category of legal but running a large malpractice risk.

Wow. Just... Wow. Make sure you remember this guy's name. He is going to wind up in the news at some point and it isn't going to be for anything good.
 
Wow thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - I really appreciate it.

As for the Mohs surgeries I was quite confused myself. The physician is EM boarded and did an EM residency - so no FM background to explain it. He told me he picked up the skill doing a derm elective durring residency. As for the pathology part he checks the margins himself.

I guess this falls into one of the category of legal but running a large malpractice risk.

This is terrifying.
 
It kills me that some EM docs do stuff like this as if they are hurting for money. I can understand owning a part of a medical cosmetic business but actually doing something like Mohs surgery?!?!
 
"Picked up the skill on a derm elective".

MOHS is a fellowship after derm residency. This sounds parallel to arguments that FM with an EM fellowship is or is not equal, or mid levels are equal to physicians.

Considering the success rates of fellowship-trained MOHS surgeons, this guy can't be doing anywhere near a good enough job. At all.
 
"Picked up the skill on a derm elective".

MOHS is a fellowship after derm residency. This sounds parallel to arguments that FM with an EM fellowship is or is not equal, or mid levels are equal to physicians.

Considering the success rates of fellowship-trained MOHS surgeons, this guy can't be doing anywhere near a good enough job. At all.
But I am just as good at EM as you are and anyone saying different is just engaging in a turf war as part of the establishment!
 
A few thoughts:

1) Most primary care guys I know are perfectly happy to avoid the patients from the ED. In fact I know several of the remaining pure-private guys who if a patient calls and tells the receptionist, "I would be a new patient, I was seen in the ED and.." they instruct the receptionist to hang up the phone. Now if he is only telling the ones with good insurance to see him at his urgent care, then that would be a "scumball" move, but not necessarily an ethical or legal issue.

2) I think the distinction is between the common and the technical use of the word "referral." If he is suggesting someone see him at a clinic he owns, that is one thing; if he is writing an order for physical therapy at a facility owned by him or a family member, then that is a totally different issue. It might seem a subtle distinction, but it is an important one.

3) Most dermatologists don't believe most dermatologists should be doing Mohs surgery (without a fellowship). The only thing I can hope is that he is using Mohs to refer to any biopsy or excision. A non-dermatologist billing for Mohs should be flagged by any insurance company during claims processing. If he is telling patients that he is doing "Mohs" when he removes a lesion - even if he correctly codes it for insurance - there would seem to be a basic consumer fraud issue. But unless he did a dermatology residency somewhere - even if outside the US - there is no way I can see a physician coming close to doing Mohs.
 
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and recommend you report him to the medical board for the MOHS stuff.
 
Short version (for the tldr crowd):

It's very important from risk management reduction strategy, for all physicians, to stay comfortably within your scope of practice and to be in close consultation with a healthcare attorney, when setting up practice arrangements where there are potential Stark and anti-kickback issues to be worked out.


Long version:

1) *The below is not legal advice. I am not an attorney. In fact, consider everything below, wrong. Ignore it 100%. Stark and anti-kickback law is complex with subtleties and gray areas, and on some issues, even the attorney's don't agree. For legal advice ask a healthcare attorney your question and ignore me completely*

However, here's my answer, having had some exposure to these issues in the real world.

Seeing a patient in the ED then in your office is absolutely not a stark violation. Surgeons and all kinds of ED consultants consult to the ED, see a patient and then arrange follow up in their office. They then see the patient and bill for both visits. It's not "illegal self referral" nor would it be for a FM doc. There is no referral happening. It's simply continuity of care. It would not be any more illegal for an EM physician to continue care with a patient on an outpatient basis, if he had a primary practice location in which to do so, than it is for the ED consultants that do this routinely.

However, the anti-kickback and anti-self referral laws prohibit you from referring to a facility other than your primary practice location, where you're not seeing the patient and doing the actual work, where someone else is, and sending you money in return.

Example 1: Surgeon (or EP) sees a patient in the ED. He diagnoses diverticulitis, determines the patient is not sick enough to be admitted, and prescribes outpatient antibiotics and arranges follow up in the clinic. The then bills the patient for the ED evaluation and the outpatient visits. That is 100% legal.

Example 2: Surgeon (or EP) sees patient in the ED. Same situation. ED consult. Arranges outpatient follow up and bills just like example 1. But in thte process he refers the patient to an imaging center for a CT. (So far, totally legal). Come to find out, the surgeon owns a 50% share of the imaging center and is getting money for each CT. That becomes illegal, because he's referred outside of his own care and is getting a kickback for an outside referral. Interestingly, there is something called the "in office ancillary exemption" where it becomes legal, if that surgeon possess and owns a CT scanner in his office, under the same roof as his primary practice location, and bills for the work of doing the imaging. This is what allows ortho/neuro/neurosurg/pain practices to have their own MRI machines in their offices, and bill for it legally. Also, some larger primary care offices had labs in their own offices and bill for it. That's totally legal. If it's off site however, and you own all or part of the lab and "refer" out to it, it's not legal.

So, in your example of the EM trained FM doc, seeing a patient in the ED, and following up in his outpatient office, that's totally fine. There's no referral occurring; it's simply continuity of care. If, on the other hand, he refers to some outside office, doesn't see the patient himself (therefore a referral must be generated) but secretly he has some part or total ownership which provides his monetary compensation for that referral, then that likely violates Stark/anti-kickback law. Even if the patient is then seen by a PA or NP, that he officially supervises, it still may be okay. Some other facility, with another doc's PA where your doc somehow has ownership or gets sent a $ spiff for each referral without ever seeing or supervising the seeing of the patient? Not okay.

2) I know several EM docs that have transitioned to FM. It's definitely legal. While I don't think it's ideal (much like FMs doing EM) I think the specialties are close enough, it can be done done by a smart, motivated person who undertakes a tremendous amount of self study to bridge the knowledge gaps. But you must be prepared to detail to a medical board or jury, exactly what that self study was.

3) There is no law that prevents an EP or any other physician performing Moh's (or any other) surgery, however medical boards tend to take a very unforgiving view of this when there's a bad outcome. It can easily be considered out of the scope of your practice and suddenly becomes very hard to defend in a malpractice case or medical board hearing if there's a bad outcome. Since there's enough overlap between so many specialties and so much change an evolution in treatments in standards of care, it's therefore impossible to criminalize all cross-over between the scopes of different specialties. Medical boards are left to judge these situations when there's a bad outcome. It's a less than perfect system, but it's the best one we've got.

As an aside; one of my good friends is a Derm/fellowship trained Moh's surgeon. He does facial resections, skin flaps, skin grafts and even reads his own path. He's a rock star. I'd never even attempt to do this work with an ED background and without some other background in either Derm/Plastics and/or Path. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would be extremely poor judgement if I were to do so. Is a 1 month Derm rotation where ones does a lot of Moh's enough to be competent, when Dermatologists spend a whole year in fellowship learning the technique? I don't know for sure, but it seems like a stretch to me.
 
Last edited:
I don't want to derail this conversation (quite interested in the OP's queries) and so I hope this addition doesn't distract, but adds:

Does Stark only apply to government-funded patients (ie Medicaid/Medicare)? My understanding is that Stark is like EMTALA: for Medicare patient but de-facto for all. Am I wrong? (likely, since I not knowledgeable here)

Thanks, HH
I believe you are correct.
 
Even Wikipedia has this as the first line: Stark Law is a set of United States federal laws that prohibit physician self-referral, specifically a referral by a physician of a Medicare or Medicaid patient to an entity providing designated health services ("DHS") if the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship with that entity.

Stark Act Violations | Self Referral Fraud | Rabon Law Firm | North Ca

Referring to your own clinic is a violation.
When any physician sees a patient in the ED, and then continues care by seeing them in the outpatient setting, no referral is generated. That's what makes every consultant you call to the ED, who then sees a patient, discharges the patient and arranges to see them in their office at a later date, on solid legal ground.
 
There's a difference between referring patients from a hospital to your practice and surgery center than a patient being referred by another physician and surgery is done at your surgery center.

In the past -- although I think the restrictions have been relaxed -- physicians have had to have separate corporations for their labs and such.

You could be right, but I'm pretty sure it's actually the opposite. From what I've been told, having a lab or imaging under your practice's roof, where you're doing the work (either clinical, imaging, lab) is compliant under the in-office ancillary exemption and using your self and own in-office facilities generate no "referral." Referring to an outside facility, where you have a financial stake, is where a referral is generated.
 
Last edited:
I'm not even sure how somebody would do MOHS in an urgent care, since you need a pathologist to be reading slides.
Fellowship trained Moh's docs read their own slides. That's what makes it "Moh's" as opposed to a plastic surgeon who cuts out a cancer, does a repair and sends the path to pathologist. I know of at least 1 plastic surgeon and 1 dermatologist who claim they do "Moh's" but they're sending out their path. Neither did Moh's fellowships. The Derm/Moh's fellowship guy I know, does the cutting and the path. It's my understanding that that's what makes Moh's such a unique niche.
 
3) Legally yes. Ethically, probably not. My license is to practice medicine and surgery. Full stop. I can do anything so long as there are no problems. The instant there is a problem, I'm screwed if I do something beyond my training.

This
 
Here's why this thread is so personal to me. I went out of my way, sacrificed a year of my salary and life to do an interventional pain fellowship and paid the money, sweat and tears to get that board certification. That's why is pisses me off to hear of people that take a weekend course in something (be it Pain, Plastics, Moh's) and then hang a shingle and call themself "Specialists" when they're really a phony. Then when they kill or maim someone, they give the people who've actually done the work, a bad name. This problem is 100% worse in Pain (interventional and non-interventional), than is the issue of FPs doing EM is, in EM
 
Last edited:
Even Wikipedia has this as the first line: Stark Law is a set of United States federal laws that prohibit physician self-referral, specifically a referral by a physician of a Medicare or Medicaid patient to an entity providing designated health services ("DHS") if the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship with that entity.

Stark Act Violations | Self Referral Fraud | Rabon Law Firm | North Ca

Referring to your own clinic is a violation.
Except the law specifically says if the physician him or her self is providing the care they are referring the patient to, it ISN'T a violation....only if he was referring to another doctor who kicks money back to him, or he owns a portion of the business but is not directly personally providing the care, is it a violation. At least according to everything I have read.
 
When any physician sees a patient in the ED, and then continues care by seeing them in the outpatient setting, no referral is generated. That's what makes every consultant you call to the ED, who then sees a patient, discharges the patient and arranges to see them in their office at a later date, on solid legal ground.

The difference is that the consultant doesn't consult himself. The ED physician requests the consult. If a neurologist was in the ER and saw every headache without an EP requesting the consult, and then referred the patient to his/her clinic that was owned by the neurologist, then that is a financial kickback to himself and violations FS law.
 
I really appreciate all the discussion this thread has created and everyone who took the time to answer my question.

I ended up mentioning this to our schools family med clerkship director, who was...a bit annoyed.
 
Top