Effexor withdrawl

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klebsiella

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Hey. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the withdrwal associated with Effexor for me. My roommate decided to stop taking effexor because she couldnt handle the side effects. Her dr told her to step down (her highest dose was only 75mg), which she did. But holy crap do I feel for her. Her withdrawl symptoms include: leg/knee pain, night sweats, nightmares, what feels like electric zaps in her brain, dizziness, loss of concentration, rage, etc. She has asked me to help her get info on how to make it stop so I thought Id ask yall.

Also, after searching the internet and finding some horrible storeis of withdrawl from this med...is there a reason why more psychs/gps arent telling their patients about the possibilities of withdrawl from this med?

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klebsiella said:
Hey. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the withdrwal associated with Effexor for me. My roommate decided to stop taking effexor because she couldnt handle the side effects. Her dr told her to step down (her highest dose was only 75mg), which she did. But holy crap do I feel for her. Her withdrawl symptoms include: leg/knee pain, night sweats, nightmares, what feels like electric zaps in her brain, dizziness, loss of concentration, rage, etc. She has asked me to help her get info on how to make it stop so I thought Id ask yall.

Also, after searching the internet and finding some horrible storeis of withdrawl from this med...is there a reason why more psychs/gps arent telling their patients about the possibilities of withdrawl from this med?

I think your roommate`s doctor (a general practitioner or psychiatrist?) was irresponsible if he/she did not warn her that she could have "withdrawal symptoms". I think most people on this forum will agree that one must SLOWLY decrease most psychotropic medications and slowly increase an alternative medication. Perhaps the drop was too drastic ? Since most psychiatric medications require a number of weeks or even months to have an effect, an abrupt cessation or an abrupt drop of the medication can cause a serious relapse and the patient can get even SICKER than they were prior to pharmacotherapy.
 
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Doc Samson said:
So now we have people asking for advice on psychopharm, and dentists dispensing it... Sazi? You there?

Obviously we have to get a detailed medical history in order to assess those physical manifestations. But was I not right ? Don`t underestimate the knowledge of a dentist. We had to take pharmacology courses as well ! And I have degrees in other fields. I also read medical journals/research.
 
klebsiella said:
Hey. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the withdrwal associated with Effexor for me. My roommate decided to stop taking effexor because she couldnt handle the side effects. Her dr told her to step down (her highest dose was only 75mg), which she did. But holy crap do I feel for her. Her withdrawl symptoms include: leg/knee pain, night sweats, nightmares, what feels like electric zaps in her brain, dizziness, loss of concentration, rage, etc. She has asked me to help her get info on how to make it stop so I thought Id ask yall.

Also, after searching the internet and finding some horrible storeis of withdrawl from this med...is there a reason why more psychs/gps arent telling their patients about the possibilities of withdrawl from this med?

Not sure how the "step down" was set up, but if it were me, I would want to go very slowly. For example, Effexor (immediate release) comes in 25mg tab that I believe are scored. I would decrease by 12.5mg every five days. That said, I'm not a Dr., so don't act on what I would do.
 
Doc Samson said:
So now we have people asking for advice on psychopharm


I was simply seeking a source of information since Im curious about why this happens and since psychopharm is something that "you all" understand much more than most people I thought this would be a good place to start.
 
Surg Path said:
Not sure how the "step down" was set up, but if it were me, I would want to go very slowly. For example, Effexor (immediate release) comes in 25mg tab that I believe are scored. I would decrease by 12.5mg every five days. That said, I'm not a Dr., so don't act on what I would do.


Effexor is a capsule.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Obviously we have to get a detailed medical history in order to assess those physical manifestations. But was I not right ? Don`t underestimate the knowledge of a dentist. We had to take pharmacology courses as well ! And I have degrees in other fields. I also read medical journals/research.

I have nothing but respect for the field of dentistry, but pharmacology courses and other degrees aside, you have as much expertise on psychopharm as I do on teeth.

When my patients complain about a provider from another specialty/discipline, I would never pass a professional judgment without conferring with that provider. When my patients ask for advice on another specialty/discipline, I refer them to the appropriate provider. So, when my patients complain of a toothache, I refer them to a dentist. When yours complain of discontinuation syndrome, I'd hope you'd refer them to their original prescriber (without the whole "Ooooh, that's soooooo irresponsible" pre-amble).

Of course, I haven't even touched on the ethics of giving medical advice on SDN...

SAZI?
 
Poety said:
Effexor is a capsule.

Effexor XR is a capsule in 37.5, 75, and 150mg.

Effexor is a tablet in 25, 50, and 100mg.
 
Gotta give some moral support for my fellow chief...

IBTL
 
Surg Path said:
Effexor XR is a capsule in 37.5, 75, and 150mg.

Effexor is a tablet in 25, 50, and 100mg.


AHA! Never ordered the tabs, tx!
 
Doc Samson said:
I have nothing but respect for the field of dentistry, but pharmacology courses and other degrees aside, you have as much expertise on psychopharm as I do on teeth.

When my patients complain about a provider from another specialty/discipline, I would never pass a professional judgment without conferring with that provider. When my patients ask for advice on another specialty/discipline, I refer them to the appropriate provider. So, when my patients complain of a toothache, I refer them to a dentist. When yours complain of discontinuation syndrome, I'd hope you'd refer them to their original prescriber (without the whole "Ooooh, that's soooooo irresponsible" pre-amble).

Of course, I haven't even touched on the ethics of giving medical advice on SDN...

SAZI?

Oooo the arrogance. You don't know anything about me nor my personal history nor my education prior to dental school . I think one should be very careful when criticizing others.

I didn't claim to have any expertise on psychopharmacology . Amongst all health providers, particularly in psychiatry, it is a well known fact that patients should not completely stop taking medications or changing the regimen /doses without the advice of their physicians and if there are any side effects, they should be reported to the doctor-pharmacology 101- that was my main point. And I do agree that you can't give medical advice over SDN which is why I also suggested in another reply, that one must have a whole medical history in order to properly assess the situation.

I have met some general practitioners who have no idea what constitutes the signs of depression or other mental illnesses. The ignorance amazes me. Shame on those doctors !

You know, one day, when I was on call, an ER doctor paged me to the ER for an "emergency" - supposebly for a "laceration" above the eyebrow. Well, low and behold, when I arrived, the patient had a bullet wound to the head and the so called "laceration" was the entry wound of the bullet and the bullet was still lodged in the head. I was amazed at how a doctor could have paged me for that.
 
Doc Samson said:
I have nothing but respect for the field of dentistry, but pharmacology courses and other degrees aside, you have as much expertise on psychopharm as I do on teeth.

When my patients complain about a provider from another specialty/discipline, I would never pass a professional judgment without conferring with that provider. When my patients ask for advice on another specialty/discipline, I refer them to the appropriate provider. So, when my patients complain of a toothache, I refer them to a dentist. When yours complain of discontinuation syndrome, I'd hope you'd refer them to their original prescriber (without the whole "Ooooh, that's soooooo irresponsible" pre-amble).

Of course, I haven't even touched on the ethics of giving medical advice on SDN...

SAZI?

Please read carefully. I said the doctor was irresponsible IF he did not warn the patient of some effects that could occur by ceasing the medication or changing the regimen.
 
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Doc Samson said:
I have nothing but respect for the field of dentistry, but pharmacology courses and other degrees aside, you have as much expertise on psychopharm as I do on teeth.

When my patients complain about a provider from another specialty/discipline, I would never pass a professional judgment without conferring with that provider. When my patients ask for advice on another specialty/discipline, I refer them to the appropriate provider. So, when my patients complain of a toothache, I refer them to a dentist. When yours complain of discontinuation syndrome, I'd hope you'd refer them to their original prescriber (without the whole "Ooooh, that's soooooo irresponsible" pre-amble).

Of course, I haven't even touched on the ethics of giving medical advice on SDN...

SAZI?


Another point - I would never tell one of my own patients that another health professional was irresponsible. I am simply expressing my opinion here - which is another story.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Oooo the arrogance. You don't know anything about me nor my personal history nor my education prior to dental school . I think one should be very careful when criticizing others.

I didn't claim to have any expertise on psychopharmacology . Amongst all health providers, particularly in psychiatry, it is a well known fact that patients should not completely stop taking medications without the advice of their physicians -pharmacology 101- that was my main point. And I do agree that you can't give medical advice over SDN which is why I also suggested in another reply, that one must have a whole medical history in order to properly assess the situation.

I have met some general practitioners who have no idea what constitutes the signs of depression or other mental illnesses. The ignorance amazes me. Shame on those doctors !

You know, one day, when I was on call, an ER doctor paged me to the ER for an "emergency" - supposebly for a "laceration" above the eyebrow. Well, low and behold, when I arrived, the patient had a bullet wound to the head and the so called "laceration" was the entry wound of the bullet and the bullet was still lodged in the head. I was amazed at how a doctor could have paged me for that.


So, what degees do you have? Are you working as a dentist? Why would you get paged to the ER?
 
Solideliquid said:
So, what degees do you have? Are you working as a dentist? Why would you get paged to the ER?

I'm not here to discuss my degrees. I did a hospital based residency program and was exposed to various emergencies not typically handled by most general dentists .

I just expressed my opinion (based on my pharmacology knowledge and personal experience) which was in short : "medications should not be stopped and doses should not be changed without the advice of a physician because there can be consequences. Side effects should be reported to your doctor" . End of story.
 
klebsiella said:
I was simply seeking a source of information since Im curious about why this happens and since psychopharm is something that "you all" understand much more than most people I thought this would be a good place to start.

Firstly, don't look for information through internet resources because there is a lot of junk out there unless you know which medical journals are scientifically valid and if you have the knowledge or judgement to understand them.

SDN is an interesting and informative forum but like one of the docs on this thread mentioned, it is not a place to dispense medical advice to patients. You can get opinions here but your friend needs to talk to her own doctor. My opinion was, "never stop medications or change the doses without your doctor's advice because there can be some effects- especially with psychiatric meds . If there are any side effects, consult your doctor immediately".

Secondly, you can't make a diagnosis/treatment plan/prognosis for your friend . She needs to have a thorough physical examination and a detailed medical history done by her family doctor or psychiatrist. All of those physical manifestations you listed may not necessarily be a result of the cessation/decrease of her medication.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Firstly, don't look for information through internet resources because there is a lot of junk out there unless you know which medical journals are scientifically valid and if you have the knowledge or judgement to understand them.

SDN is an interesting and informative forum but like one of the docs on this thread mentioned, it is not a place to dispense medical advice to patients. You can get opinions here but your friend needs to talk to her own doctor. My opinion was, "never stop medications without your doctor's advice because there can be some effects- especially with psychiatric meds".

Secondly, you can't make a diagnosis/treatment plan/prognosis for your friend . She needs to have a thorough physical examination and a detailed medical history done by her family doctor or psychiatrist. All of those physical manifestations you listed may not necessarily be a result of the cessation of her medication.

So, you disagree with asking for a therapeutic opinion here, but not with giving one?

I've avoided commenting on the case presented, because this is not the place for that. But given that it included the sentence:

"Her dr told her to step down (her highest dose was only 75mg), which she did."

I'm not sure where you were going with your advice.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
You know, one day, when I was on call, an ER doctor paged me to the ER for an "emergency" - supposebly for a "laceration" above the eyebrow. Well, low and behold, when I arrived, the patient had a bullet wound to the head and the so called "laceration" was the entry wound of the bullet and the bullet was still lodged in the head. I was amazed at how a doctor could have paged me for that.

I'm sure this makes a valid point about something, I'm just not sure what it is.
 
Doc Samson said:
So, you disagree with asking for a therapeutic opinion here, but not with giving one?

I think SDN is an interesting forum for exchanging therapeutic opinions between health professionals but giving a therapeutic opinion to a person who has no health education/lay person is not valid particularly if there is not enough information on the medical history . If this particular individual's doctor was asking for advice on these physical manifestations and presented a thorough history, including the dose regimens and suggested treatment plan, that would be another story.
 
Doc Samson said:
I'm sure this makes a valid point about something, I'm just not sure what it is.

I was simply citing an example to imply that one shouldn't be so arrogant about one's profession.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
If this particular individual's doctor was asking for advice on these physical manifestations and presented a thorough history, including the dose regimens and suggested treatment plan, that would be another story.

1) Not the case here, but you still felt compelled to pipe up.

2) Would be ethically questionable since giving a "thorough history" over the internet would almost certainly breach confidentiality.

3) Would be professionally questionable since no-one knows who the f@#$ we are or our qualifications. I could be a 15 year old girl for all you know.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
I was simply citing an example to imply that one shouldn't be so arrogant about one's profession.

I think the arrogance lies in assuming that you can offer a professional opinion outside of your area of training. Again, I would never presume to tell my patients that their dentist had misinformed them about oral hygiene.
 
Doc Samson said:
I think the arrogance lies in assuming that you can offer a professional opinion outside of your area of training. Again, I would never presume to tell my patients that their dentist had misinformed them about oral hygiene.

Oh, so I have no right to an opinion on anything except the world of dentistry? 😡 Nothing I have said was valid ? I'm not commenting in a psychiatric journal nor am I writing a scientific report for one.

I have the right to express my opinion in whichever forum I please. What are you going to do about it? Arrest me ? :laugh: Feel free to pose questions or make comments in the dental forums. I have nothing against it. 🙂

Having psychiatric patients consult me for psychiatric care in the clinics I work at is quite another story.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Oh, so I have no right to an opinion on anything except the world of dentistry? 😡 Nothing I have said was valid ? I'm not commenting in a psychiatric journal nor am I writing a scientific report for one.

I have the right to express my opinion in whichever forum I please. What are you going to do about it? Arrest me ? :laugh: Feel free to pose questions or make comments in the dental forums. I have nothing against it. 🙂

Having psychiatric patients consult me for psychiatric care in the clinics I work at is quite another story.


Are you a dentist or not? It's not that hard, watch, "I'm a medical school graduate starting my psychiatry residency this summer." See?
 
Smilemaker100 said:
I'm not here to discuss my degrees. I did a hospital based residency program and was exposed to various emergencies not typically handled by most general dentists .

I just expressed my opinion (based on my pharmacology knowledge and personal experience) which was in short : "medications should not be stopped and doses should not be changed without the advice of a physician because there can be consequences. Side effects should be reported to your doctor" . End of story.


Why are you so hostile?
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Oooo the arrogance. You don't know anything about me nor my personal history nor my education prior to dental school . I think one should be very careful when criticizing others.

I didn't claim to have any expertise on psychopharmacology . Amongst all health providers, particularly in psychiatry, it is a well known fact that patients should not completely stop taking medications or changing the regimen /doses without the advice of their physicians and if there are any side effects, they should be reported to the doctor-pharmacology 101- that was my main point. And I do agree that you can't give medical advice over SDN which is why I also suggested in another reply, that one must have a whole medical history in order to properly assess the situation.

I have met some general practitioners who have no idea what constitutes the signs of depression or other mental illnesses. The ignorance amazes me. Shame on those doctors !

You know, one day, when I was on call, an ER doctor paged me to the ER for an "emergency" - supposebly for a "laceration" above the eyebrow. Well, low and behold, when I arrived, the patient had a bullet wound to the head and the so called "laceration" was the entry wound of the bullet and the bullet was still lodged in the head. I was amazed at how a doctor could have paged me for that.


I'm confused why you were on call for the ER and would even be paged for a lac above the eyebrow? just wondering!
 
Doc Samson said:
I could be a 15 year old girl for all you know.

Ahh, now everything makes sense! :laugh:
 
Poety said:
I'm confused why you were on call for the ER and would even be paged for a lac above the eyebrow? just wondering!

She might not be answering because the uniqueness of her cv could be personally identifying. At least I guard mine for that reason. 😳
 
MissMuffet said:
She might not be answering because the uniqueness of her cv could be personally identifying. At least I guard mine for that reason. 😳

Or maybe she got annoyed with the responses. No offense guys, but you can be a little over-proprietary about the psychiatry forum. It's no secret that venlafaxine can cause withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly, and who knows if it was prescribed by a PCP or psych MD? I think you guys were a little on the harsh side. I think SMs post was fine. You can jump on me now.
 
Psyclops said:
Or maybe she got annoyed with the responses. No offense guys, but you can be a little over-proprietary about the psychiatry forum. It's no secret that venlafaxine can cause withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly, and who knows if it was prescribed by a PCP or psych MD? I think you guys were a little on the harsh side. I think SMs post was fine. You can jump on me now.

No flames from me. I agree. Just didn't want to poke the nest myself. 😉
 
SM - the point we made when the OP posted this very question on the pharmacy forum is that not only weren't we capable of making a judgement on an individual patient, but general drug information is just that - general. Four years of pharmacology & 30 years of being a pharmacist have taught me that academic information about drugs is just that - academic only & not necessarily translatable to any one patient. It requires the judgement of the individual's medical provider to sort out if her symptoms are drug effects, drug withdrawal effects or her pathology. Not something which can be done on a message board or in a pharmacy!

If the OP had asked a general academic question with regard to tapering methods of antidepressants...he might have had different responses, but as it was, the thread was locked the pharmacy forum for trying to obtain medical/drug advice.

Now...I have great respect for dentists - I married one! But...I can't think he would ever have had an opinion on this, but perhaps thats just him.
 
The OP's question was:
"Also, after searching the internet and finding some horrible storeis of withdrawl from this med...is there a reason why more psychs/gps arent telling their patients about the possibilities of withdrawl from this med?"

Apparently, the OP believed that the room-mate's doc had not told/warned the room mate* and the OP was offering it up for discussion.

SM merely said that IF that had been the case, it was indeed irresponsible.

She followed that with common knowledge the OP had already said they knew from web searches.

*If you search the web, you will see this "surprise" among people when the withdrawal sx strike is indeed a very common problem. I don't understand why discussing the why's and wherefore's here provokes such jerking of knees.
 
MissMuffet said:
The OP's question was:

Apparently, the OP believed that the room-mate's doc had not told/warned the room mate* and the OP was offering it up for discussion.

SM merely said that IF that had been the case, it was indeed irresponsible.

She followed that with common knowledge the OP had already said they knew from web searches.

*If you search the web, you will see this "surprise" among people when the withdrawal sx strike is indeed a very common problem. I don't understand why discussing the why's and wherefore's here provokes such jerking of knees.

I think part of the issue is that none of us believe the guys roomate's doctor DIDN'T tell them about side effects. We've all had the patients take themselves off the meds by going down to like one every other day then quitting them. I don't tend to believe 3rd party information on this thing either. I think its someone trying to get advice for themselves 99% of the time.
 
According to HarrisonOnline, one of the AEs of this drug is hypercholesterolemia, does anyone know how this happens?

Here is the text from Harrisons (AccessMedicine Drug Monogram)

Venlafaxine has been associated with clinically important elevations in serum cholesterol (serum cholesterol >= 50 mg/dl from baseline and to a value >= 261 mg/dl) in 5.3% of venlafaxine-treated patients vs. 0% of placebo-treated patients. With at least 3 months of venlafaxine treatment in a 12-month study, the mean elevation in serum cholesterol was 9.1 mg/dl vs. a decrease of 7.1 mg/dl in the placebo group. The increases in serum cholesterol were dose and duration dependent. The manufacturer lists hypercholesterolemia as an infrequent adverse event (occurring in 1/100 to 1/1000 patients). The clinician may wish to monitor serum cholesterol levels at baseline and periodically during treatment with venlafaxine.
 
Solideliquid said:
According to HarrisonOnline, one of the AEs of this drug is hypercholesterolemia, does anyone know how this happens?

Here is the text from Harrisons (AccessMedicine Drug Monogram)

Venlafaxine has been associated with clinically important elevations in serum cholesterol (serum cholesterol >= 50 mg/dl from baseline and to a value >= 261 mg/dl) in 5.3% of venlafaxine-treated patients vs. 0% of placebo-treated patients. With at least 3 months of venlafaxine treatment in a 12-month study, the mean elevation in serum cholesterol was 9.1 mg/dl vs. a decrease of 7.1 mg/dl in the placebo group. The increases in serum cholesterol were dose and duration dependent. The manufacturer lists hypercholesterolemia as an infrequent adverse event (occurring in 1/100 to 1/1000 patients). The clinician may wish to monitor serum cholesterol levels at baseline and periodically during treatment with venlafaxine.

Why are you starting this again? GO VACATION FOR PETES SAKE <whips solid in the head with a whip> YOU HAVE A MONTH TO LIVE IT UP!
 
Poety said:
I think part of the issue is that none of us believe the guys roomate's doctor DIDN'T tell them about side effects. We've all had the patients take themselves off the meds by going down to like one every other day then quitting them. I don't tend to believe 3rd party information on this thing either. I think its someone trying to get advice for themselves 99% of the time.

I tend to think the same thing with regard to the latter, Poety.

But some doctors do not always tell about the side effects or emphasize just how slowly some meds need tapered off. Especially GPs and OB-Gyns who rx psychotropics.

And the number of people who somehow aren't cluing in even when they are told seems to be a problem. What can be done about that? I have no idea. It seems the drug info pharmacies provide these days should be adequate, but perhaps they could be better?

What about the role of the pharmacist? I've had some who spend a few minutes going over and highlighting the info sheet for even the most innocuous drugs. Is that always good or bad? Too much to ask?

Again, I honestly don't know. Just seems like it could be an interesting discussion. 🙂
 
MissMuffet said:
The OP's question was:

Apparently, the OP believed that the room-mate's doc had not told/warned the room mate* and the OP was offering it up for discussion.

SM merely said that IF that had been the case, it was indeed irresponsible.

She followed that with common knowledge the OP had already said they knew from web searches.

*If you search the web, you will see this "surprise" among people when the withdrawal sx strike is indeed a very common problem. I don't understand why discussing the why's and wherefore's here provokes such jerking of knees.

I love ya Miss Muffet ! *hugs* 🙂
 
MissMuffet said:
I tend to think the same thing with regard to the latter, Poety.

But some doctors do not always tell about the side effects or emphasize just how slowly some meds need tapered off. Especially GPs and OB-Gyns who rx psychotropics.

And the number of people who somehow aren't cluing in even when they are told seems to be a problem. What can be done about that? I have no idea. It seems the drug info pharmacies provide these days should be adequate, but perhaps they could be better?

What about the role of the pharmacist? I've had some who spend a few minutes going over and highlighting the info sheet for even the most innocuous drugs. Is that always good or bad? Too much to ask?

Again, I honestly don't know. Just seems like it could be an interesting discussion. 🙂

I strongly believe that a lot of general family doctors should not have the right to prescribe psychotropic medications. It astounds me how a lot of GPs not only are ignorant about various psychiatric illnesses but aren't even up to date with the names of any of the recent psychiatric meds nor their potential secondary effects or withdrawal effects.
 
MissMuffet said:
I tend to think the same thing with regard to the latter, Poety.

But some doctors do not always tell about the side effects or emphasize just how slowly some meds need tapered off. Especially GPs and OB-Gyns who rx psychotropics.

And the number of people who somehow aren't cluing in even when they are told seems to be a problem. What can be done about that? I have no idea. It seems the drug info pharmacies provide these days should be adequate, but perhaps they could be better?

What about the role of the pharmacist? I've had some who spend a few minutes going over and highlighting the info sheet for even the most innocuous drugs. Is that always good or bad? Too much to ask?

Again, I honestly don't know. Just seems like it could be an interesting discussion. 🙂

Miss Muffett - I have not had a physician or any other prescriber for that matter (dentists too!) in the last 10 years who have not given sufficient information for their patients with regard to the medication prescribed. I know that because when I talk to patients about their new prescriptions, I ask what their prescriber told them. Now...I work in a very urban, metropolitian CA area, but I don't think our practices across the country are that far off. In addition, with antidepressants, prescribers (psychiatrists or otherwise) are very careful to explain the drugs due to the potential of side effects or change in illness. They also monitor closely, particulary at the beginning of therapy, during dose or drug changes or during tapering (I can tell - I have no refills on the rx!)

As for my practice - as a pharmacist - I can tell you exactly what I do & what the law requires me to do, especially with these medications. That does not mean I am obligated nor should I explain everything that is possible that particular drug can do to a patient (as Solid so eloquently put it). However, I am careful to cover how they take the medication (or the taper in this case), what side effects to look for, what legal precautions to take (drinking/driving) & to call with questions.

However, the IMO, the biggest obstacle for patient understanding is the patient himself/herself. They may hear the same information from me, their physcian, read it in the written information we are obligated to provide with EVERY refill and they still will claim they were not informed.

This is not unique to psych patients - most every patient, IMO, who is discharged from an inpatient stay in a hospital is barraged with information. It takes time to sink it - sometimes they'll recall what they were told, sometimes not. Thats why we get called frequently for patients who have recent diagnoses and new medications and we go over the instructions, the side effects/cautions, their concerns & I'm sure physicians field the same calls. Its always nice to have someone else, a family member or SO who can hear instructions, but that is not always the case.

The concern is when the patient no longer wants to have their physician in the loop - they want to get their drug information from me (& I am not able to give the information in the context of their illness) or worse yet, from the internet. Then...you get folks like the OP who seek to do their own adjusting when the illness perhaps is not as amenable to self adjusting as others may be (think - diabetics who adjust their insulin dose based on blood sugar).

Pharmacists will always be available to give information in the generic sense, however, we realize how complex the process is, especially when medication is only one aspect of treatment. So although we will offer reassurance, we will consistently refer the patient back to the prescriber so the prescriber is aware and can adjust therapy. A message board, internet, written material is never a replacement for a prescriber-patient relationship.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
I strongly believe that a lot of general family doctors should not have the right to prescribe psychotropic medications. It astounds me how a lot of GPs not only are ignorant about various psychiatric illnesses but aren't even up to date with the names of any of the recent psychiatric meds nor their potential secondary effects or withdrawal effects.

Sorry - I gotta disagree with you here....
 
You sound like an awesome pharmacist, sdn. And I bow to ya, not only because it's such a critically important profession and position in health care delivery, but damn, I struggled in pharm. :scared:

Great post, and I only hope that MDs and PhamDs in all areas of the country will achieve the excellent balance and dedication they have in yours. 🙂

I would like to be optimistic about patients taking a lot more responsibility than they do, but that would be a stretch, huh. 😉
 
sdn1977 said:
Sorry - I gotta disagree with you here....

Why would you disagree? I PERSONALLY know this to be the case!
 
sdn1977 said:
Sorry - I gotta disagree with you here....

Why would you disagree? I PERSONALLY know this to be the case! The ignorance amongst those with a medical education (including dentists) in regards to mental illnesses is rampant- it constantly astounds me.
 
MissMuffet said:
You sound like an awesome pharmacist, sdn. And I bow to ya, not only because it's such a critically important profession and position in health care delivery, but damn, I struggled in pharm. :scared:

Great post, and I only hope that MDs and PhamDs in all areas of the country will achieve the excellent balance and dedication they have in yours. 🙂

I would like to be optimistic about patients taking a lot more responsibility than they do, but that would be a stretch, huh. 😉

Thank you! However, the issue I was trying to point out was not more patient responsibility....they are only as responsible as their illness, circumstance & situations allow. As providers of medical (in my case, pharmaceutical) advice...we acknowledge they may not always understand the first, second or fifth time we explain something. But...it is important we don't jump to conclusions about one of our colleagues & suggest he/she is not doing their job & thus irresponsible. It is easy to place blame, particularly when we only hear one aspect....
 
sdn1977 said:
Thank you! However, the issue I was trying to point out was not more patient responsibility....they are only as responsible as their illness, circumstance & situations allow. As providers of medical (in my case, pharmaceutical) advice...we acknowledge they may not always understand the first, second or fifth time we explain something. But...it is important we don't jump to conclusions about one of our colleagues & suggest he/she is not doing their job & thus irresponsible. It is easy to place blame, particularly when we only hear one aspect....

Oh, I completely agree. I just know that it does happen too often to jump to conclusions about the individual patient, too. I've seen it, myself, and I've heard docs around here talk about it as well. I'll PM you details if you want me to, otherwise, I'd just as soon let it drop.

Bottom line, then I'll bow out: My experience has been that some docs drop the ball on explaining these things to pts. I'm not on a mission to insult them by any means, but nor do I think they should be protected from responsibility/criticism or given automatic trust out of some sense of professional loyalty. The ones I know sure as hell aren't that loyal to one another. lol

Seriously, this is dinner-table discussion around here. I don't see why it should be taboo on SDN.
 
Smilemaker100 said:
Why would you disagree? I PERSONALLY know this to be the case! The ignorance amongst those with a medical education (including dentists) in regards to mental illnesses is rampant- it constantly astounds me.

Why would I disagree? Well....I fill on average 180 prescriptions per day - lots of those for a variety of antidepressants, mood altering, antianxiety, etc medications from any number of different medical specialties - FM & OB/GYN included. I also worked for 20 years in a hospital with an acute inpatient psych unit in which my responsibility was chart review & patient drug education. My PERSONAL relationship with these prescribers, especially in recent years, has been that patients get referred to the primary provider when the patient becomes stable or has circumstances which prevent the patient from utilizing a specified mental health provider. In addition, many of these medications are used by oncologists, pain management physicians & neurologists for treatment of depression (sorry - don't really know the diagnostic terminology) associated with an illness which they are managing. Physicians communicate with each other all the time - you may just not be aware of it.

The reality is some insurances do not provide for mental health benefits and most, if they do, place limits on how many times or how much money is spent on utilizing these services. For these patients, it is in their interest to have their continuing medical needs followed by their primary provider, who can consult with the psychiatrist, if access or plan limitations prevent continuing treatment. It is better they are followed by a physician rather than not being able to access anyone at all.

I will agree with your assessments with regard to dentists & mental health issues since you are a dentist & brought it up. I can only agree though based on my own limited experience with my husband and his colleagues, who are personal friends. Uniformly, they do not know these drugs side effects (but, my husband does not know what felodipine is used for either!), but they call the physician if it will impact treatment. Few root canals need to be deferred because the patient is tapering Effexor or starting on Wellbutrin, but you may have a different practice than that of my husband.

I'm not clear why you might want to limit prescribing authority. Take your area of expertise...you prescribe chlorhexidine as a mouth rinse - that is its only approved indication. However, dermatologists use it for some of the conditions they treat. Prescribers - all of them - take on the responsibilities of what they do seriously. I have never, on rounds, during my hours of chart review & in all the various ways I've had to contact them have ever not taken what they do seriously & in a considered manner. Sometimes, bad side effects happen and it takes more adjustments than some might want to find a stable therapeutic plan, and sometimes patients just dont click with providers...but that is not a reason, IMO to chastise the whole bunch of non-psychiatrists. That said....your personal experience may be far greater than mine.....
 
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