Effing Torque

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ridethecliche

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I'm having a really hard time with some torque problems. This came up in nova on pg 100 ex 3. Since I can't paste the problem here, I figured I'd post one like it.

Here's an example problem:
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/walker2/chapter11/custom1/deluxe-content.html

The problem is number 11.4 and this is what it looks like:

25.gif


I have no clue how they're changing the 'viewing frame' of the problem and how the angles are the same. I actually gave myself a headache by staring at the Nova problem for an hour.

Help please! Thank you 🙂
 
The right picture is just a free body diagram that omits the force exerted by the wall on the beam. There are 4 forces in this problem and 3 torques when you define the attachment between the wall and the beam to the axis of rotation.
 
Let me see if I can scan and attach or describe the nova problem. In that problem it looked to me like the sin/cos convention was backwards but I don't think that they made a mistake. I just have no idea how they got it.

Here's the nova problem. T is the tension in the horizontal cable. L is the length of the pole in blue. Then there's a mass 'm' hanging off the end.

NovaProblem.png


They ask :

A) What is the tension in the horizontal string?

B) What is the magnitude of the force of the wall on the pole at pt A?
 
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OK. All forces and torques have to be balanced. There are 4 forces, but only 1 of them has both x and y component. There are 3 torques. If the pole is considered massless, then there is less force and torque to deal with.
 
F(t)cos(angle) = mgsin (angle)

Amidoingitright?

F(t)[sin(90- angle)] = mg sin (angle)

sin (90- angle) = cos(angle)

sin (30) = cos (60)

sin (90 - 60 ) = cos (60)

at least im guessing...
 
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So a is:

LT Sin (90-theta)- Lmg Sin (theta)=0
LT Cos (theta) - Lmg sin (theta)=0
T= Mg x ( (sin theta)/ (cos theta) )

I have no idea how they getting and using cos theta for the quantity LT cos (theta).

I'm not sure how they're drawing stuff out and I'm lost.
 
I'm gonna give this a shot. It's been a while since I looked at this stuff, so take it as a grain of salt:

Your first step should be to find a place to call the pivot point. Often the easiest choice would be where all the unknown forces are acting. Doing this would cancel them out.

Here are a list of forces in this problem:
- Fy,wall
- Fx,wall
- F,pole

- F,tension
- F,object

In this case, the three forces in red are the "unknowns" that you don't need (assuming you're told the mass of the object and asked to find the tension). This is a hinge problem, so most likely the pivot point will be point A. Choosing this as our pivot, we can eliminate the force of the wall (both x and y components). Also, by assuming the pole is massless we could also eliminate it's torque.

This is exactly where you want to be.

You're now left with TWO torques to consider:
- The Tension in the String (acting some distance from the pivot)
- The weight of the Object (acting some distance from the pivot)

Because these are the only two (non-zero) torques, and because everything is in static equilibrium, these two torques must be balancing (and therefore pointing in opposite directions).

We could now say the following:
- The Tension in the String (pulling counter-clockwise)
- The weight of the Object (pulling clockwise direction)

Net Torque = 0 (Net Torque = Torque of Tension - Torque of Object);
Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)

The main problem here is finding the distances to which the forces acting. To do this, you need to consider trigonometry.
This part is a little more difficult to explain. The theta position in the upper triangle (at point A) is equivalent to the theta of the bottom angle (at point C).

The distance from A to B is:

Cos(theta) = Adjacent / Hypotenuse
Cos(theta) x Hypothenuse = Adjacent
"Adjacent" being the length from A to B

The distance from A to (bottom of) C is:

Sin(theta) = Opposite / Hypotenuse
Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite
"Opposite" being the Length from B to C

Now plug this into the original torque equation we had earlier:

Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)
Ftension x (Cos(theta) x Hypothenuse) = Fobject x (Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite)

Since you didn't specify what the weight of the object is, the tension, or even the angle, there's not much more you can do really.
But let's say you were trying to solve for tension:

You'd have to re-arrange the equation to look like this:
Ftension = Fobject x Sin(theta)/Cos(theta) <--- "Hypotenuse" cancels
Ftension = Fobject x tan(theta)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: If the pole wasn't massless, you could still find the tension. The torque would balance out a bit differently.

Instead of: Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)
You'd have: Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fpole x (Lever Arm) + Fobject x (Lever Arm)
Or simply put: Torque (Tension) = Torque (Pole) + Torque (Object)

Assuming the pole has uniform mass, the lever arm for the pole would be half the distance of the Lever Arm to the object (due to the pole's center of mass).
 
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So a is:

LT Sin (90-theta)- Lmg Sin (theta)=0
LT Cos (theta) - Lmg sin (theta)=0
T= Mg x ( (sin theta)/ (cos theta) )

I have no idea how they getting and using cos theta for the quantity LT cos (theta).

I'm not sure how they're drawing stuff out and I'm lost.


In this case they're drawing the pole as horizontal. The Tension in the string pointing to the left and up and the weight pointing to the left and down.

Angle BAC is your usual sin(angle) component for torque. This angle is sin(90-theta) = cos(theta).
Angle AC(weight) is your counter sin(angle) component for torque. This angle is given, hence sin(theta).
 
By the way, there's two ways you could find torque:

- Lever Arm x Force
I like to think of this as Distance Perpendicular x Force

- Radius Vector x Force
I like to this of this as Distance x Force Perpendicular

The second method would be a little more difficult because the radius vector would be the length of the pole. You'd also have to find the component of the force acting perpendicular to the pole. Using the Lever Arm was the easier approach.
 
In the equation for torque, &#964; = rFsin(&#952😉, &#952; is the (smallest) angle between the vector from the pivot point to the point where the force is applied (r) and the force vector (F). From basic high school geometry, angle of BCM = angle of BAC = &#952;, and angle of BCA = 90 - &#952;. Also, from basic high school trigonometry, sin(90-&#952😉 = cos(&#952😉.
 
I'll look at this in the morning when I can make some sense of it. Staring at this more right now isn't going to help.

I basically didn't understand how they redrew the triangles.

I know that the angles that make the 'faces' of the 'Z' are the same and am aware that sin (90-theta) = cos (theta)

Just have a block on this particular problem for some reason and couldn't figure it out earlier.

Thanks for all the help!
 
It started bothering me so I'm working through this now.

I'm bolding something below and not sure whether it's a typo or not.

I'm gonna give this a shot. It's been a while since I looked at this stuff, so take it as a grain of salt:

Your first step should be to find a place to call the pivot point. Often the easiest choice would be where all the unknown forces are acting. Doing this would cancel them out.

Here are a list of forces in this problem:
- Fy,wall
- Fx,wall
- F,pole

- F,tension
- F,object

In this case, the three forces in red are the "unknowns" that you don't need (assuming you're told the mass of the object and asked to find the tension). This is a hinge problem, so most likely the pivot point will be point A. Choosing this as our pivot, we can eliminate the force of the wall (both x and y components). Also, by assuming the pole is massless we could also eliminate it's torque.

This is exactly where you want to be.

You're now left with TWO torques to consider:
- The Tension in the String (acting some distance from the pivot)
- The weight of the Object (acting some distance from the pivot)

Because these are the only two (non-zero) torques, and because everything is in static equilibrium, these two torques must be balancing (and therefore pointing in opposite directions).

We could now say the following:
- The Tension in the String (pulling counter-clockwise)
- The weight of the Object (pulling clockwise direction)

Net Torque = 0 (Net Torque = Torque of Tension - Torque of Object);
Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)

The main problem here is finding the distances to which the forces acting. To do this, you need to consider trigonometry.
This part is a little more difficult to explain. The theta position in the upper triangle (at point A) is equivalent to the theta of the bottom angle (at point C).

The distance from A to B is:

Cos(theta) = Adjacent / Hypotenuse

Cos(theta) x Hypothenuse = Adjacent
"Adjacent" being the length from A to B


The distance from A to (bottom of) C is:

Sin(theta) = Opposite / Hypotenuse

Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite
"Opposite" being the Length from A to C


Here did you mean B to C? A to C is the hyp no?


Now plug this into the original torque equation we had earlier:

Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)
Ftension x (Cos(theta) x Hypothenuse) = Fobject x (Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite)

Since you didn't specify what the weight of the object is, the tension, or even the angle, there's not much more you can do really.
But let's say you were trying to solve for tension:

You'd have to re-arrange the equation to look like this:
Ftension = Fobject x Sin(theta)/Cos(theta) <--- "Hypotenuse" cancels
Ftension = Fobject x tan(theta)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: If the pole wasn't massless, you could still find the tension. The torque would balance out a bit differently.

Instead of: Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)
You'd have: Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fpole x (Lever Arm) + Fobject x (Lever Arm)
Or simply put: Torque (Tension) = Torque (Pole) + Torque (Object)

Assuming the pole has uniform mass, the lever arm for the pole would be half the distance of the Lever Arm to the object (due to the pole's center of mass).

Edit:

I guess my confusion is also coming from the fact that neither tension nor the weight of the mass are acting perpendicular to the length of the pole. Don't we have to calculate the components to be able to figure out how they're equal?

When you write hyp sin theta, that's giving you the length of the other side and not the x and y component of that side itself, no?

I.e. not all of mg is going towards torque right? A certain component of it is, correct?

Ugh what am I missing...
 
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It started bothering me so I'm working through this now.

I'm bolding something below and not sure whether it's a typo or not.

Woops, you're right. Sorry about that. I meant to say B to C, not A to C. 👍

Therefore:

Sin(theta) = Opposite / Hypotenuse
Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite
"Opposite" being the Length from B to C (not A to C).
 
I hope I didn't confuse you more, lol.

Nah you didn't.

I'm just a little confused as to why we're not looking at the perpendicular components of the hanging mass and of the tension in the cable.

Only a part of that force is going to the torque right? The rest being parallel to the 'pole' designated by the length L.

Thanks for trying to help. I just really want to figure this out but am totally blanking for some bloody reason.

Ftension x (Lever Arm) = Fobject x (Lever Arm)
Ftension x (Cos(theta) x Hypothenuse) = Fobject x (Sin(theta) x Hypotenuse = Opposite)

In the above you're just saying that:

Force tension times BC= Mg times AB

My confusion stems from the fact that these aren't acting perpendicular to the pole. I either have my frame of reference wrong or I'm missing something basic conceptually.

Seriously, thanks for the help.
 
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For rotational equilibrium to exist, all counter-clockwise forces must balance clockwise forces. Otherwise, if a net torque exists it'll begin accelerating in that direction. In this diagram, we know that isn't the case.

Your typical example of rotational equilibrium is usually two people sitting on a see-saw - and you're asked to find the weight of the chunky kid using the other known values (assuming Rotational Equilibrium --> ie. Balancing the See-saw). This problem is no different:

2qxakx4.png


Imagine extending the force of tension further (past the pivot point).
Also, you should realize tension is pulling up on the object. The object is pulling down (gravity). The tension iis the same everywhere in the string.
 
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Nah you didn't.

I'm just a little confused as to why we're not looking at the perpendicular components of the hanging mass and of the tension in the cable.


Only a part of that force is going to the torque right? The rest being parallel to the 'pole' designated by the length L.

Thanks for trying to help. I just really want to figure this out but am totally blanking for some bloody reason.



In the above you're just saying that:

Force tension times BC= Mg times AB

My confusion stems from the fact that these aren't acting perpendicular to the pole. I either have my frame of reference wrong or I'm missing something basic conceptually.

Seriously, thanks for the help.

We are looking at only "part of the force". That is, we are looking at only the perpendicular or tangential part of the force. If we weren't, torque would simply be L*F, the distance from the axis (L) and the magnitude of the force (F).

There are various ways to calculate torque. Fundamentally, torque is defined as: &#964; = r x F (cross product)
But this is the same as &#964; = rFsin(&#952😉 = rF&#8869;.
Another way to do it is do &#964; = r&#8869;F = rsin(&#952😉F, which is equivalent.

When ilovemcat uses trigonometry to find AB (for torque due to tension) and BC (for torque due to weight of the object), he is finding r&#8869; for each case. r&#8869; is called the moment arm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque
 
Hey guys thanks for helping, but I figured it out.

I just needed to redraw the tension and the mass vectors as the hyps to their own triangles then everything fell into place.

This is what I was having confusion with. Now the forces are perpendicular and torque can be calculated. Yeah I know you guys were right all along, but I was having a heck of a time seeing it for myself. And now you've taught someone how to torque, i mean fish, for a lifetime!

NovaProblemdone.png
 
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