EK 1001 Ochem hybridization question

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FeinMS

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i have a question regarding question number 67 and 73 in EK 1001 ochem. For those who don't have this book, the questions are asking for the hybridization of amide nitrogen and ester oxygen. The answers say both of them are sp3, but I think the correct answer is sp2 because this hybridization allows the existence of a p-orbital and conjugation to delocalize electrons.

What do you think?

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i have a question regarding question number 67 and 73 in EK 1001 ochem. For those who don't have this book, the questions are asking for the hybridization of amide nitrogen and ester oxygen. The answers say both of them are sp3, but I think the correct answer is sp2 because this hybridization allows the existence of a p-orbital and conjugation to delocalize electrons.

What do you think?

sp3.

unless you are talking about the ester oxygen that is the carbonyl (C=O) then it is sp2.

there are two single bonds (one to the carbonyl carbon and one to the other side carbon) and two lone pairs of electrons on the ester oxygen. The amide has three single bonds (one to hydrogen, one to the carbonyl carbon, and the other to the other carbon) and a lone pair of electrons. If it is sp2, where is the pi bond?

dsoz
 
i have a question regarding question number 67 and 73 in EK 1001 ochem. For those who don't have this book, the questions are asking for the hybridization of amide nitrogen and ester oxygen. The answers say both of them are sp3, but I think the correct answer is sp2 because this hybridization allows the existence of a p-orbital and conjugation to delocalize electrons.

What do you think?

The amide nitrogen and ester oxygen are somewhere in between sp2 and sp3. Amide N has more sp2 characteristic than Ester O.

You won't get an ambiguous question like this on the MCAT unless additional information is provided.
 
sp3.

unless you are talking about the ester oxygen that is the carbonyl (C=O) then it is sp2.

there are two single bonds (one to the carbonyl carbon and one to the other side carbon) and two lone pairs of electrons on the ester oxygen. The amide has three single bonds (one to hydrogen, one to the carbonyl carbon, and the other to the other carbon) and a lone pair of electrons. If it is sp2, where is the pi bond?

dsoz

The lone pair on nitrogen delocalizes and makes a pi bond with the carbonyl carbon, which breaks its pi bond with oxygen (leaving O with a negative charge).
 
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i have a question regarding question number 67 and 73 in EK 1001 ochem. For those who don't have this book, the questions are asking for the hybridization of amide nitrogen and ester oxygen. The answers say both of them are sp3, but I think the correct answer is sp2 because this hybridization allows the existence of a p-orbital and conjugation to delocalize electrons.

What do you think?

This is something I posted about a while ago. Turns out EK is wrong - the answer is effectively sp2. I even double-checked with my organic professor and the Wade OChem textbook to make sure.

A good example is to think of peptide bonds, which are planar. In order to be planar, they have to be sp2 hybridized. You don't get a planar bond with sp3 hybridization.
 
I don't know why people classify it as having some sp3 and some sp2 characteristics. If a bond is involved in any form of resonance, then it must have at least one available p-oribital at all times. Having one available p-orbital would indicate an sp2 hybridized atom. Therefore, In those examples you mentioned, both the oxygen in an ester as well as the nitrogen in an amide functional group are both sp2 hybridized.

EK 1001 is notorious for having multiple errors, so I'm not sure why people continue to use them. However, the good news is their website has a list of all the errata so, if you want to confirm your initial thoughts, give it a visit.
 
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sp3.

unless you are talking about the ester oxygen that is the carbonyl (C=O) then it is sp2.

there are two single bonds (one to the carbonyl carbon and one to the other side carbon) and two lone pairs of electrons on the ester oxygen. The amide has three single bonds (one to hydrogen, one to the carbonyl carbon, and the other to the other carbon) and a lone pair of electrons. If it is sp2, where is the pi bond?

dsoz
I don't see why you're emphasizing the single bonds. You totally disregarded resonance in these structures, which would indicate a sharing of electrons via p orbitals.

Unless you're 100% certain you can answer something correctly, don't answer at all. I find it extremely annoying when people answer for the sake of answering, especially when people come here for help and you're misleading them with false info.
 
I don't know why people classify it as having some sp3 and some sp2 characteristics. If a bond is involved in any form of resonance, then it must have atleast one available p-oribital at all times. In those examples you mentioned, both the oxygen in an ester as well as the nitrogen in an amide functional group are both sp2 hybridized. EK 1001 is notorious for having multiple errors, so I'm sure why people continue to use them. However, the good news is their website has a list of all the errata so, if you want to confirm your initial thoughts, give it a visit.

I concede the point with amides being primarily sp2 because of the whole issue with the planar structure of peptides, but esters are definitely not completely sp2 hybridized.
(Btw, this isn't something I got from EK 1001. This was what I was taught in Orgo 2 from my professor.)

Here's my quick google search citation: http://instruct.uwo.ca/chemistry/283g/Nifty Stuff/amides are flat B.htm

Where's yours?

I suggest you do a little research before coming here and chastising people who are only trying to help. The responder above made a mistake. No one's perfect. Not even you. If you want to challenge a claim, feel free to do so, but don't belittle people while you're doing it.
 
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I concede the point with amides being primarily sp2 because of the whole issue with the planar structure of peptides, but esters are definitely not completely sp2 hybridized.
(Btw, this isn't something I got from EK 1001. This was what I was taught in Orgo 2 from my professor.)

Here's my quick google search citation: http://instruct.uwo.ca/chemistry/283g/Nifty Stuff/amides are flat B.htm

Where's yours?

I suggest you do a little research before coming here and chastising people who are only trying to help. The responder above made a mistake. No one's perfect. Not even you. If you want to challenge a claim, feel free to do so, but don't belittle people while you're doing it.
For the sake of the MCAT, both Oxygen and Nitrogen are sp2 hybridized. We can get into some detailed debate about all sorts of experimental evidence about it having both sp2 and sp3 characteristics, but if a question explicitly asks you whats the hybridization of that atom, you better ditch that technical thinking style and instead keep it basic.

Here are just a few sources. You can google the rest.

"Hybridization’s crucial exception is this: when an atom that appears to be sp3 hybridized can participate in resonance, that atom is in fact sp2 hybridized. This is because resonance requires an open p-orbital to occur. Sp3 atoms have 4 sp3-hybridized orbitals but no open p-orbitals, and therefore cannot participate in resonance. Sp2 -hybridized atoms can. Why is it important for resonance to occur? Again, the answer lies in stability. Structures with resonance are more stable than similar structures without resonance, so whenever an atom has an opportunity to free up a p-orbital to accommodate resonance, it will do so"

Source: http://www.chem.ucla.edu/harding/ec_tutorials/tutorial18.pdf

"Some chemists do use a "partial" hybridization model that assigns factional hybridizations, sp2.5 etc. This is a sort of more sophisticated hybridization model. We don't generally teach this because it is obviously harder to implement in a classroom. Of course, as you have heard before, both the hybridization and the partial hybridization model and just that, models. As before, we tend to use the simplest model that explains what we need to explain, we are just prepared for those situations where the model doesn't quite explain everything, as this case."

Source: http://chm233.asu.edu/notes/resonance/S2.html

"Since hybridization state does not really change, how do you decide which is the correct hybridization state? The answer is that in cases of resonance contributing structures in which a given atom is either sp3 or sp2 hybridized, the rule is that if any significant contributing structure indicates an atom is sp2, then sp2 is the hybridization state of the atom. In the example above, this means that the partially negatively charged carbon and oxygen atoms are both sp2 hybridized, even though they appear sp3 in one contributing structure each."

Source: http://iverson.cm.utexas.edu/courses/310M/POTD Fl12/POTD9-5-12.html
 
Clearly, dsoz could have prefaced his explanation with a little comment like, "Hey, it's been a while since I looked at this ...." or "Hey, I'm not entirely certain but ..." But he didn't and had this person glanced at this thread and read his and his reply alone, then it could potentially be a costly mistake for this person on an exam like the MCAT. Who wouldn't be irritated by this? Helping is fine. Misleading someone is not.
 
Clearly, dsoz could have prefaced his explanation with a little comment like, "Hey, it's been a while since I looked at this ...." or "Hey, I'm not entirely certain but ..." But he didn't and had this person glanced at this thread and read his and his reply alone, then it could potentially be a costly mistake for this person on an exam like the MCAT. Who wouldn't be irritated by this? Helping is fine. Misleading someone is not.

"Misleading" implies intent. Neither you or I can say whether he gave false information purposely or accidentally. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it was an honest mistake. Also, all SDNers should take these forums with a grain of salt and not completely rely on responses from here.

Something this theoretical and technical is certainly up for debate and I don't believe any of our answers are adequate. For the purposes of the MCAT, this will not likely be a discrete question, which was my original point.
 
"Misleading" implies intent. Neither you or I can say whether he gave false information purposely or accidentally. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it was an honest mistake. Something this theoretical and technical is certainly up for debate and I don't believe any of our answers are adequate. For the purposes of the MCAT, this will not likely be a discrete question, which was my original point.
ok
 
As far as weird instances like esters go, the real answer is that hybridization is completely artificial and so in attempting to "assign" a particular format we're trying to force the unknown-shaped peg of the molecular into one of our two differently-shaped holes. Hence, we get things like fractional hybridization that don't really make a whole lot of basic sense, but are used to fit everything into the partially accurate model.

It's not worth the time to think about, and it's not going to be asked.
 
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