EM for DO's

[Doctor]

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Is there a disadvantage to going the DO route in order to get to Emergency Medicine? I'm not quite smart enough to get an MD. Just kidding, people say I'm actually very bright. In fact, sometimes my friends are in downright awe of my intellectual prowess (I'm sure you all know how awesome this feels 😳).

But I have a low overall GPA 👎 and may be applying to both MD and DO programs after a post-bacc (after which I should have high BCPM 👍 and high MCAT 👍, usually test in the upper percentiles; but still that low overall GPA).

Let's say I get into at least one DO program but no MD programs. Any disadvantage to this route if I want to do EM? I think I'll have a good shot at some MD schools, but I want to make sure that I can do this even if I have to resort to the backup route (and honestly, I have no preference between the "philosophy" of MD or DO).

My problem here is that I hear a lot of "rural" and "FP" mentioned with DO schools, and I like rural. But...I don't like Family Practice, which is why I am here. They have emergency rooms out in the countryside, right? Good.

Back to the original question: any disadvantage to the DO route for Emergency Medicine? Are there enough osteopath residencies for EM, or does one generally have to fight the uphill battle of getting an MD residency as a DO?

 

[GeneralVeers]

MD is preferable, as more programs will be available to you. If DO is all you can get, then go for it. I know lots of DOs who've gotten into EM.

 

[DrMom]

Overall, EM is quite DO friendly. That said, there are programs out there that don't interview DOs, although they are in the minority.

Keep in mind that in addition to the MD EM residencies, there are also DO residencies. The biggest down side is that all DO EM residencies are 4 years, whereas most MD EM residencies are 3. Also, a number of the DO residencies are at community-type hospitals rather than trauma centers.

 

[bcrosspac]

I disagree that MD is more preferable. There are reasons that some people "choose" DO vs MD. For others, the fact that allopathic programs frequently exclude those of us who are older (and wiser) directs prospective applicants towards DO programs which often appreciate the value of the older student.

As far as Emergency Medicine goes, I think it is very receptive to DO's. There are a handful of programs that for one reason or another, remain foolishly close minded to DO's. It is nothing less than blinded prejudice in my opinion. I would not let any of those program persuade you away from EM. It is a great specialty!!

 

[Doctor]

👍 Thanks all. Extremely helpful responses!

 

[ricanrage2]

I tend to find some of the above comments offensive. I am a fourth year D.O. student applying for EM. I chose the D.O. route because I preferred the manipulative medicine. I view it as learning what is taught in M.D. schools plus something extra. I did not choose a D.O. school because I wasn't smart enough to get into a M.D. program. If you are looking at a D.O. school simply because you don't feel you are smart enough for M.D., please don't apply, we don't want you.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I tend to find some of the above comments offensive. I am a fourth year D.O. student applying for EM. I chose the D.O. route because I preferred the manipulative medicine. I view it as learning what is taught in M.D. schools plus something extra. I did not choose a D.O. school because I wasn't smart enough to get into a M.D. program. If you are looking at a D.O. school simply because you don't feel you are smart enough for M.D., please don't apply, we don't want you.

Uh, you do realize that that OP followed that sentence about not being smart enough IMMEDIATELY with "just kidding?"

 

[ElZorro]

I don't consider what is being said too offensive. It is truthful. If you honestly look at your class I bet at least 50% ended up there because their MCATs or GPA or something was not quite perfect. To go to an osteopathic school w/o an understanding of the disadvantages of an osteopathic education is short sighted. In truth, you will have a harder time getting an EM spot. That is not to say that osteopathic students are worse then MD students, it just says that not everybody recognizes DO students as equivalent. I am a DO student, and am applying solely ACGME (MD) match, and expect to do fine. Why? Well, I did the things that allow you to be compared with MD students...i.e. rotate at some big name places and crush the boards. But...you must remember as a DO you have to prove yourself, sort of guilty until proven innocent. It is certainly not the path of least resistance. However, I would not change a thing because despite all the bias, I like being a DO, and feel that although alot of the extra stuff I learned is a waste, some of the principles of healing and hands on patient care are unique will contribute to my success as a future physician....plus DO students are more fun then MD students...everybody knows that.

 

[DOnut]

I tend to find some of the above comments offensive. I am a fourth year D.O. student applying for EM. I chose the D.O. route because I preferred the manipulative medicine. I view it as learning what is taught in M.D. schools plus something extra. I did not choose a D.O. school because I wasn't smart enough to get into a M.D. program. If you are looking at a D.O. school simply because you don't feel you are smart enough for M.D., please don't apply, we don't want you.

I tend to agree with the above poster. Though I am in an ACGME residency, there are many strong quality osteopathic emergency medicine residency programs. Some of which are at large level one trauma centers. Also, the OP is a premed, and the "If DO is all you can get" comment is very inappropriate. The facts are that Emergency Medicine is WIDE open to DO's both via the allopathic or osteopathic route. With hard work and studying you will achieve your goals period. Also if you choose to go allopathic, the very small number of programs that choose to not interview a DO is a non issue. There are too many programs that will, and if you are competitive, apply to the right number of programs, work hard and interview well, you WILL match. IMO it's as simple as that.

DO is not a hindrance, especially not with Emergency Medicine.

 

[AR1776]

I don't want to get much into this debate but I will tell you that I chose an osteopathic school over allopathic for several reasons.
1. They (my school) had/have PBL (problem based learning - very few lectures, all case studies, more independent learning/time to myself, treated me more like the adult I am at 23-25 y/o, and proven better preparation for the boards) I just don't think I could have sat through 2 more years of lecture. There are a few MD schools that offer this.
2. I liked the idea that OMM (the bone cracking part) gave me an extra edge/tool to treat my patients and may be an alternative to all the narcotics given in today's age.
3. I do alot of medical missions trips and have used OMM many times on that.
4. I feel that osteopathic schools focus more on teaching preventive medicine/treating the patient like a person rather than that COPDer in bed 3.

So, I went to an osteopathic school knowing I wanted to do EM and knowing that it might be a little harder to get in. My opinion is that high fluentent programs that aren't flexible enough to take DO's aren't flexible in other things that might matter. Flexible is a necessity in the EM world.
Having said that I think going the MD route is just fine, easier, but less challenging. Live life to the edge of your possibilities!

 

[Doctor]

I don't want to get much into this debate but I will tell you that I chose an osteopathic school over allopathic for several reasons.
1. They (my school) had/have PBL (problem based learning - very few lectures, all case studies, more independent learning/time to myself, treated me more like the adult I am at 23-25 y/o, and proven better preparation for the boards) I just don't think I could have sat through 2 more years of lecture.

Very interesting post, but is this part actually a proven fact, that PBL schools are statistically proven to produce higher board scores? And do most DO schools have PBL?

 

[AR1776]

Very interesting post, but is this part actually a proven fact, that PBL schools are statistically proven to produce higher board scores? And do most DO schools have PBL?

Most don't, it's coming though. I know many schools have started new PBL programs based on the evidence of higher board scores and probably require less space to teach more students. Within my school PBL did better than the lecture students repeatedly over many years. Even if it didn't, I just think that learning in a case style setting helps you master the art of the H&P before you ever enter a hospital. I could do them in my sleep and noticed a big difference in my interviewing skills verses other medical students I met in my 3rd year. It helps transition between learning by listening and reguritating to critical thinking, deduction skills, and understanding required for a career in medicine.
Let's be clear - I'm not promoting my school - just the PBL concept which can be found in both allopathic and osteopathic schools.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I tend to find some of the above comments offensive. I am a fourth year D.O. student applying for EM. I chose the D.O. route because I preferred the manipulative medicine. I view it as learning what is taught in M.D. schools plus something extra. I did not choose a D.O. school because I wasn't smart enough to get into a M.D. program. If you are looking at a D.O. school simply because you don't feel you are smart enough for M.D., please don't apply, we don't want you.

So you're planning to do "manipulative medicine" as part of your career in EM?



DO's have a harder time in the Match, no matter what specialty they do. I don't think it's right or fair, but it's true. Unless you are REALLY sold on the philosophy MD is a better route with fewer headaches.

Since there are a few DO upperclassmen posting on here (and since this forum tends to be more civil than Allo) I wonder if they could speak on the "DO philosophy." I mean, most of you have probably rotated with MD students, do you think you have a different/better philosophy? How often do you find yourself saying "man, this guy really needs some OMM!"

I just had the distinct pleasure of working with a DO resident on one of my clerkships, she kicked arse as a resident but it didn't have anything to do with her philosophy or the fact that she was a holistic thinker...

 

[GeneralVeers]

A DO who is in the class above me (now a senior), blatantly tells me he couldn't get into MD school, so took the DO route. He also says that the "manipulative medicine" is nonsense, but he smiled, and tolerated it to get what he wants in the end. I too probably would have taken this route if I couldn't get into med school. It's not the ideal route for some people, but its a means to an end.

I have nothing against DOs, but anyone who thinks they are an equivalent degree to MD, and that they will enjoy the same treatment in the match is wrong, just based upon fact.

 

[BadVB750]

I have nothing against DOs, but anyone who thinks they are an equivalent degree to MD, and that they will enjoy the same treatment in the match is wrong, just based upon fact.

Well, the degrees are equivalent in the sense that both allow a person to practice medicine. Where they aren't equivalent is in the eyes of academic allopathic residencies and with the prestige factor.

I'm a DO fourh year, mainly cause I have it in my blood. I didn't apply to MD schools, but now that I am going through the interview process I see how life would have been a lot easier if I had.

 

[Quimby2]

Dang!!! G.V.'s, now my secret is out! Actually, he is right...i had a hard time getting into MD programs due to low GPA despite high MCATs. MANY of my peers made the same choice and it had nothing to do with seeking out the DO philosophy (which is a "flame" topic in itself). On my med school interview (KCOM) I even explained I was not sold on OMM and they seemed to welcome that. DO schools do still offer something different, even if you do not buy into OMM (and don't even get me started on their claimed niche of being holistic) --most of the schools do not prioritize research. This changes the emphasis to teaching and student well-being. I found this to be a nice change after my mega-research-oriented undergrad institution. Yeah, my anatomy class wasn't taught by a world famous Phd, but he was awesome at teaching.

I think GV if correct, the match may be a little more challenging. Being a DO is one more obstacle. The interviewing school is going to know that, on average, DO's have lower MCATs and GPA's. But it can still work out just fine --and it likely will if you have strong letters of rec and USMLE scores (sounds like you test well and than add that to a post-bacc and you should rock the USMLE). The DO route worked well for me; I interviewed at top notch allopathic EM programs. I took the USMLE I and II which I think helped a lot (During my interviews, programs told me it helped to compare apples with apples). I applied to about thirty programs (due to "DO panic") and got offered interviews at almost every one. The one exception to this was the CA EM programs which seemed to be DO adverse (except Bakersfield and King/Drew) --with that said I believe that even USC and UCLA have, on occasion, taken DO's (likely they had some inside track is my guess).

If you go the DO route, and you stick with EM as a specialty, I would stongly consider an allopathic residency --in EM they just tend to have better residencies (mostly due to hospital size, university affiliations, and county programs). The one exception to this rule MIGHT be the MI and OH programs where the DO world is a bit more established.

Also, during med school try to do a rotation or two at allopathic programs and get a letter of rec from these programs.

Discrimination? Absolutely! During your career, you'll on occasion be challenged or passed up just beacuse you are a DO. With that said, the DO world is a small community and the discrimination goes in reverse too. I landed one of my moonlighting jobs where I was likely hired in part because I WAS a DO. It also is a great ice breaker on interviews, etc.

Best Wishes!

 

[DocWagner]

I am a DO, and I was chief Resident at an MD EM residency.

I think MD residencies, virtually across the board, are going to be relatively similar to each other. ABEM and the ACGME have such strict requirements, that there simply won't be huge variances in pathology, procedures, patients seen, academic lectures etc. There will be subtle differences yes (which by many medical students appear to be huge...they aren't clinically), but Wake Forrest will teach you the SAME STUFF as Toledo...which will teach you the same stuff as Tampa...which will teach you the same stuff as UCLA. Yes...believe it or not.

BUT osteopathic residencies very quite a bit. It is VERY important that you choose an osteopathic residency wisely. Old-stand-by programs at Doctor's in Columbus and Grandview in Dayton are always wise bets, but may get pushed out of the way by regional Trauma laws and guidelines. Small volume osteopathic residencies really should be avoided. But there are many new Osteopathic Programs that are being developed that show potential (volume wise) but certainly have no track record.

Certainly, as a DO, I was aware there would be a stigma TO A FEW...but honestly, that is a fading fad. Get your foot in the door, interview well, and focus on your strengths...not just numbers.

 

[RayF]

It's great to be able to do an adjustment and get rid of stubborn chronic pains in yourself, family members, and colleagues using only your hands and OMM concepts. Also, if u get good at it, u could make good money with OMM.. I know docs who make a living off of it.

I haven't seen a difference in the level of wisdom or clinical prowess in my MD vs. DO attendings/residents. Some of the sharpest residents I've known were DOs.. guess it depends on the person, because all med schools have more-or-less standardized coursework..

That said, I doubt OMM would come in very handy in EM. I also have not detected much difference in how "holistic" the MD students and physicians are... DO's will be better off not using this vocabulary, since it creates rifts that don't exit in the real world.. it would be offensive to suggest that MDs are not "holistic".. whatever that word means.

 

[vegangirl]

I think an important factor to take into consideration is WHERE you want to practice. Here in Michigan, DOs are able to place at many top programs such as Detroit Medical Center, UMich, Sparrow Hospital (MSU). Other areas of the country may not be as comfortable with DOs such as North Carolina where my cousin is doing an Anestia fellowship.

 

[DrQuinn]

The older DO's come otu of the woodwork........ (nice to see ya again Wagner).

I went DO because my premed advisor told me I couldn't get into an MD school, so I never applied. That's that. I would have SO gone MD, mainly, because its a helluva lot cheaper.

Oh well.

I am not sure if the DO philosophy changed my practice in medicine. I can really only compare myself to the residents I teach and my other colleagues in the ED. I think I tend to have a great bedside manner, but then i see my MD counterparts with good bedside manner as well (some not, but I've seen DOs with horrible bedside manner).

I don't do manipulation on patients, but will on cute nurses (and do often). I will not touch my wife with any HVLA or anything that is not soft-tissue related (I have many of my fellow DOs' wives now with chronic low back and neck pain after being the guinea pigs of OMM studying).

To the OP, I would just go wherever you can get into med school. Worrying about your options for residency is a bit far sighted, but really shouldn't be the deciding factor. You should use location and cost as your two deciding factors, IMHO 🙂

Who knows, you may find adjusting BP meds and treating fibromyalgia as an outpatient incredibly exciting and rewarding and not go into EM.

Q

 

[AmoryBlaine]

That said, I doubt OMM would come in very handy in EM. I also have not detected much difference in how "holistic" the MD students and physicians are... DO's will be better off not using this vocabulary, since it creates rifts that don't exit in the real world.. it would be offensive to suggest that MDs are not "holistic".. whatever that word means.

I think this is the key point. The "rift" only exists in the minds of pre-meds and closed-minded docs. It is offensive for MDs to dwell on the fact the DOs usually had lower undergrad GPAs and offensive for DOs to suggest that their training somehow makes them better at the bedside.

The only solution: create a new degree - the D. Just put that after everyone's name on their coats so there is no mistake.

Dr. Amory Blaine, D.

 

[J.J.]

I find it ridiculous that the argument b/w MD and DO even exist. We are all learning the same exact thing (with the exception of OMM). If someone can clarify what it is MD students learn that DO student don't, I will shut-up and move-on. I find it a nuisance that we are all differentiated based on tests with hundreds of questions that provide limited information. They then provide the answer in some form right in front of you.

The real tests occur in daily practice with every patient whom you come in contact. They don't care if your MD, DO or Purple flying dinosaur as long as you have the answers and can fix the problems (or right a script for Lortab).

 

[fuegorama]

A DO who is in the class above me (now a senior), blatantly tells me he couldn't get into MD school, so took the DO route. He also says that the "manipulative medicine" is nonsense, but he smiled, and tolerated it to get what he wants in the end. I too probably would have taken this route if I couldn't get into med school. It's not the ideal route for some people, but its a means to an end.

I have nothing against DOs, but anyone who thinks they are an equivalent degree to MD, and that they will enjoy the same treatment in the match is wrong, just based upon fact.

This is my favorite group on SDN due to its traditionally humorous, respectful and informative content. Thanks General for being the exception.
As a 4th year MEDICAL student in a DO program, I find this post pretty stinkin' nasty.
I went DO on the recommendation of two of my MD EM attendings where I worked as a nurse. I have significant regrets about my decision. These revolve chiefly around the match. Having rotated with kidz from Tufts, UMass, UVM and other allo. schools, I have no doubts re:my knowledge base or ability to perform when compared to these future MDs.

As an 'allo-only' applicant with 13 invites and no rejections in this week prior to delivery of my dean's latter, my fears surrounding the match have been somewhat quelled.
Having followed your history with deep empathy during this rough year, I am sorry your title couldn't carry you into a program with solid accreditation. Your assuredly nightmarish scramble into a now-defunct program would predictably instill a touch of humility and respect toward your physician colleagues be they MD or DO. The lack of tact you have displayed may hold some answers regarding your career deficits.

Here's your education. We are attending MEDICAL SCHOOL. The schools are on this land mass. The degree is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Get it right!

As a forum member who has silently empathized with your plight during these tough times, I continue to hope the best for your future.
F

 

[BadVB750]

This is my favorite group on SDN due to its traditionally humorous, respectful and informative content. Thanks General for being the exception.
As a 4th year MEDICAL student in a DO program, I find this post pretty stinkin' nasty.
I went DO on the recommendation of two of my MD EM attendings where I worked as a nurse. I have significant regrets about my decision. These revolve chiefly around the match. Having rotated with kidz from Tufts, UMass, UVM and other allo. schools, I have no doubts re:my knowledge base or ability to perform when compared to these future MDs.

As an 'allo-only' applicant with 13 invites and no rejections in this week prior to delivery of my dean's latter, my fears surrounding the match have been somewhat quelled.
Having followed your history with deep empathy during this rough year, I am sorry your title couldn't carry you into a program with solid accreditation. Your assuredly nightmarish scramble into a now-defunct program would predictably instill a touch of humility and respect toward your physician colleagues be they MD or DO. The lack of tact you have displayed may hold some answers regarding your career deficits.

Here's your education. We are attending MEDICAL SCHOOL. The schools are on this land mass. The degree is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Get it right!

As a forum member who has silently empathized with your plight during these tough times, I continue to hope the best for your future.
F

Dude relax, I don't think General was knocking on DOs. He was just stating the obvious, if you are a DO you have harder road in obtaining a MD EM residency.

 

[GeneralVeers]

In my previous comments regarding DO residencies, I wasn't trying to insult them. I did not comment on the quality of education or their curriculum (I actually don't know what's involved in their curriculum), nor was I criticizing the quality of doctors produced. I was merely stating a fact, albeit rather bluntly that DOs applying to an allopathic residency will have a more difficult time matching when compared with U.S. grads. In a thread where the original poster was asking about MD versus DO school and going into Emergency Medicine, I think my comments were an appropriate response. To tell someone who is asking for advice, that DO schools will give them an EQUAL chance would be a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

I don't think my comments are offensive or inappropriate when viewed in any reasonable context.

 

[DrQuinn]

Here's your education. We are attending MEDICAL SCHOOL. The schools are on this land mass. The degree is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Get it right!

As a forum member who has silently empathized with your plight during these tough times, I continue to hope the best for your future.
F

Dude. Relax.

I agree with General Veers. I'm a DO. I know what our education entails. Most, if not all, MDs, do not. He wasn't really saying much about our education. His statement, I actually agree with:

"that they will enjoy the same treatment in the match is wrong,"

I think it is a true statement. Is it fair? No, but that's how it is. I am trying my best to change the stereotype at my program I am faculty at. Is it going to happen? Maybe. Who knows, but its worth a shot.

Now commenting on GV's current issue at his own program and by "rubbing it in" is pretty immature. I'm glad you have "DO pride" but learn to pick fights with people who, well, are actually arguing.

Q

 

[fuegorama]

To all y'all-
Sorry about freaking out. My post followed about 7 hours of discussion (great road trip) w/a fellow DO student regarding this same topic. If early predictors are correct, we will both do 'ok' in the match. We also both regret not applying MD. As I said earlier, in thsi student's opinion my training has been equal and in many ways superior to my allo. counterparts. It has had its ragged bits as well.

My issue is the tag-line of also 'is allowed to practice'. It's been a bit of a haul and a heck of a lot of money to get an 'also ran' medal.

We will also be ineligible for some great programs. Perception, tradition, ignorance or other equally valid reasons will keep certain places outta my sight-line.

To the OP, if you go DO the General is right. Vandy, Wake, BI-boston will among others greet you with a closed door. If you go MD, go american. The NRMP site will give you the numbers. DOs fair better than FMGs, but worse than american grads.

My issue with the General was the repeated 'didn't get into medical school'. My thoroughly primed, oversensitive self grabbed that and swung into the snarling vines of acrimony that pollute so much of the rest of SDN. I'm sorry.