EM/FP residencies

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jawicobike

Family Physician
15+ Year Member
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Why are there not more combined EM/FP residencies? I believe there are 4 or 5 of these combined AOA residencies, but no ACGME residencies. It seems to make sense for a lot of Docs who love EM, but don't see themselves working in the ED at 60, but still want to practice medicine.
 
These are a great idea in theory. But given the fact that the solo practice is all but dead and buried in a shallow grave, do you really forsee yourself going in as low man on the totem pole in a group practice on a newbie call schedule taking? Thanks, but no thanks.

jawicobike said:
Why are there not more combined EM/FP residencies? I believe there are 4 or 5 of these combined AOA residencies, but no ACGME residencies. It seems to make sense for a lot of Docs who love EM, but don't see themselves working in the ED at 60, but still want to practice medicine.
 
I was thinking more in the line of opening an acute care clinic.
 
Acute care clinic falls under the EM spectrum as well as other fields.. I assume you knew that though.
 
Ok let me clarify a bit. In a lot of smaller areas out west there are acute care clinics popping up. Some of these clinics are open 24 hours a day which is where the EM doc comes in, but alot of these clinics also employ 2 or 3 family physicians who work a regular day (9-5) and see patients who want a little more consistency in their doctor's visits but don't want to deal with the hassles of a regular family practice clinic. The advantage of this for the FP is there is no call as the clinic does not close.

So as has been pointed out the acute care setting is right up my alley if I'm an EM doc, but when I get a little older and more tired it might be nice to jump into the FP area in order to regulate my schedule a bit, but still not have to deal with the hassle of taking call.
 
jawicobike said:
So as has been pointed out the acute care setting is right up my alley if I'm an EM doc, but when I get a little older and more tired it might be nice to jump into the FP area in order to regulate my schedule a bit, but still not have to deal with the hassle of taking call.

There were many more of these places in the 80's and 90's, we were afraid they were going to eat our lunch. Today, they're mostly gone. I'm not sure that this is a wave of the future that you can surf on.

BN
 
BKN said:
There were many more of these places in the 80's and 90's, we were afraid they were going to eat our lunch. Today, they're mostly gone. I'm not sure that this a wave of the future that you can surf on.

BN

So what does an EM doc do when he is tired of the schedule of the ED? I don't see too many 60 year old docs in the ED. Am I just not looking hard enough?
 
jawicobike said:
So what does an EM doc do when he is tired of the schedule of the ED? I don't see too many 60 year old docs in the ED. Am I just not looking hard enough?
Most of the 60 year old EM docs I know of retired... electively. They enjoyed great compensation and are now traveling the world.

I do know a few older EM docs who practice part-time.

Quite frankly, I will probably retire at around 55.

If you don't want to work in the ED at 60, you can work in an urgent care clinic. Nothing states that you have to be FP trained to work in one of these "doc in the boxes."
 
jawicobike said:
So what does an EM doc do when he is tired of the schedule of the ED? I don't see too many 60 year old docs in the ED. Am I just not looking hard enough?


there are quite a few EM docs in their 50s and they are everywhere.

A group I used to work with (as a tech) all 3 of the founding members were late 50's. I think one was 60. They did their EM residencies in the early 70's (when it started ) and have been going every since.

later
 
jawicobike said:
So what does an EM doc do when he is tired of the schedule of the ED? I don't see too many 60 year old docs in the ED. Am I just not looking hard enough?

Some transition to admin positions either FT or PT while still having some time in the ED. This seems easier or at least more common in the academic world. BKN?
 
There are part time/per diem jobs abounds in private practice. ED directors are always looking to fill in for sick time, assorted gaps, and knock down their own clinical requirements.

Many people have a misconception that administration is some of golden parachute to get out of clinical work, but it isn't in many ways. You're just trading one kind of pain (belly pain, back pain) which you have to deal with while you're working clinically for another (a pain your gluteal region) which follows you home, out to dinner, and on vacation.

If you are entering medicine later in life, there are other issues involved, but if you practice for 30 years making even only an average EM physician salary, you should have no trouble retiring or at least knocking your hours way back. These days, you don't seem to see people practicing until they die of old age like Doc Jones. Times have changed.

Koko said:
Some transition to admin positions either FT or PT while still having some time in the ED. This seems easier or at least more common in the academic world. BKN?
 
jawicobike said:
So what does an EM doc do when he is tired of the schedule of the ED? I don't see too many 60 year old docs in the ED. Am I just not looking hard enough?

Well part of the problem is there aren't any! I was in the first wave of trainees, and I'm 55. The oldest trained guys and gals are just hitting 60. Many are still working, others are not.

People have been worrying about this from the beginnning, usually talking about burnout, and there have been 2 longitudinal studies. It was assumed by some that it would be like other high stress fields, particularly Thoracic Surgery. Those guys, during the heyday of coronary surgery usually retired in their fifties- but note that there were exceptions, Debakey and Cooley each operated into their 80's. The studies aren't done, but preliminary date looks like the loss rate is similar to other specialities, but EPs find other things to do than straight clinical moving the meat.

The problem with looking at my generation is that we were thrust into higher positions almost immediately upon residency graduation. Most of my cohort were in management and admin within a couple of years whether they desired it or not, because there was no one else to do it. I was running a large military ED 6 months after finishing residency. Five years later I was an academic chairman. I didn't get serious about research until a decade later when I stepped down. Most of the early academics had similar upside down careers. The nonacademics had unusual career paths also. In the early days, when we were always short of Docs, everybody was busy establishing the specialty. My point is, we had a very different environment and looking to our outcomes as a model for your career may not be useful.

My thought is that each of you will find your own way. Admin must not look that good, as I have a hard time finding any junior faculty who want to do it. I find being clinical faculty much less stressful than I found private practice, but some find that balancing supervision vs letting the residents do their thing dysphoric. Predicting 30 years down the road is always dicey, but I think what most of you will do is cut back to part time and slide out over a few years. Maybe urgent care clinics will be available and some of you may like it. I have to say that I still need the adrenalin (though perhaps not as much). I find urgent care boring and still avoid it. Others may martial your money carefully, get the kids off through college and then retire. Stay active though, retiring and then promptly dropping dead is almost a truisim.

In any case, it'll be good. I don't know anybody from my generation of EPs who regrets taking the ride. 😍
 
Thank you, your responses have been very helpful and reassuring.
 
Dood urgent care is like being in any "Fast Track" of any ED. Most of the residents at my program don't mind it, but couldn't imagine doing it 100% (or even 50%) of the time. Its a nice break every once in a whiel to see sore throats/ankle sprains/coughs/back pain, but it can drive you crazy if you do too much of it.

Q
 
BKN,

I just wanted to say thank-you for taking the time to post on this forum. Your post was very inspirational and I think we all really appreciate the sacrifices and trail-blazing your generation went through to give students like me the career opportunities we have now. I love EM, and am so thankful that I had it as a specialty to choose from. It's fun being part of a field that is so young, innovative and energetic! 🙂 👍
 
saffron said:
BKN,

I just wanted to say thank-you for taking the time to post on this forum. Your post was very inspirational and I think we all really appreciate the sacrifices and trail-blazing your generation went through to give students like me the career opportunities we have now. I love EM, and am so thankful that I had it as a specialty to choose from. It's fun being part of a field that is so young, innovative and energetic! 🙂 👍

😳 and thank you 😍
 
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