EM --> Sports Medicine (day in the life)

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

YOOOUK09

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
74
Reaction score
0
I'm interested in doing a Sports Medicine fellowship from EM.

However, my only experience with Sports Medicine is from shadowing a Sports Medicine doc who did a family medicine residency. His practice was mostly sports medicine, but he also saw family med patients. I'm thinking this was because (1) he was in a family medicine department and (2) maybe the demand for pure sports med wasn't great enough for him to do it full time.


With a EM background I'm not sure I'd be able to have those family medicine patients to fill out my schedule. Does anyone have a sense of the demand for sports medicine doctors? Can an EM--> Sports medicine doc have a full-time clinic based sports medicine practice?

Thanks!

Members don't see this ad.
 
ER sports medicine- relocate, immobilize, follow-up with ortho.

In my residency at least, we didn't get much exposure to therapeutic joint injections- hip, knee, etc. Trigger point injections and spinal root steroid injections under fluoro would be great tools to have as a sports medicine doctor.

I think that ER residency is not really geared toward producing sports medicine doctors.

If you love sports medicine, why not do an ortho residency? Then you can do injections, give advice, see clinic patients, but also take patients to surgery and give them definitive treatment (and make tons more money).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you love sports medicine, why not do an ortho residency? Then you can do injections, give advice, see clinic patients, but also take patients to surgery and give them definitive treatment (and make tons more money).

If only life were that simple...
Last time I checked, ortho was up there with Derm and Plastics. I don't know the op's current situation, as he/she may in fact be able to get an ortho spot, but this may be a good time to find out what he/she really wants out of a job. I have a little experience with FM sports med stuff and it is pretty much what the OP said, 80%FM with a little sports on the side. The two guys that I know really just do it as a hobby for high schools etc'. There is a female ER attending that is doing a sports med fellowship at my school, but it seems like this is again more of a hobby (she is really into manipulation and wants to do it for sports teams and spend less time in the ER) If the OP really wants to do a pure sports med job, perhaps PMR would be a better fit, as they can focus more on just rehab stuff and it would be a little easier to obtain when compared to ortho.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If you love sports medicine, why not do an ortho residency? Then you can do injections, give advice, see clinic patients, but also take patients to surgery and give them definitive treatment (and make tons more money).

The problem is if you don't love surgery. I'd be a long, long residency if you don't like living in the OR.
 
First of all, sports medicine is a small field to begin with. Who do most people go to for sports injuries? Their primary care doctor, or the ER.

Full time actual sports medicine guys are far and few. The niche is small. The guys who really do well are the ones fully committed to sports medicine. These are the EM guys you will find running PRO sports teams, collegiate sports, etc. It's available if you are willing to do what it takes to be good at it.

Don't worry about the Ortho guys. There are still many injuries that are nonoperative. There are many sports and athletic event injuries the ER doc has better capability of handling. ex/ Airway, Spinal shock, Transport parameters and medicine. Most collegiate and pro sports mandate a field physician who can handle airway issues. On top of this, Ortho guys make money being in the OR, they have no problem with sharing the grunt work.
 
I think a family medicine residency would better prepare you for sports medicine. If it is broken, it needs to be immobilized and referred to ortho. If it isn't broken (strains, chronic pains, joint pains, arthritis, overuse injuries) I think family medicine would get a lot more of those kind of complaints than ER would.

In ER residency, you don't get lectures on chronic arthritis, treatment of stress fractures, shin splints, etc. If somebody comes to the ER with these complaints, I'm going to say, "sorry you're having pain, but it isn't an emergency that you can't compete in sports at the level you would like for the next week. Follow-up with PCP."

If you plan to work in an office setting, you should train in an office setting. If you plan to work in the ER, you should train in the ER.

Looking at this link, http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2008.pdf
only a tiny fraction of the sports medicine fellowships are open to ER grads. If you go to the "find" button under the edit column of the PDF and search "sports", you can quickly see that FP is the way to go if you want maximum availability to sports medicine fellowships.

I live in a town of 40,000. There is not a single "sports medicine doctor". The orthopedic surgeons act as the university sports team physicians.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
FWIW, my orthopedist pretty much founded the sports medicine division of a major US hospital. He has several EM physicians who did sports medicine fellowships in his office. They do EM shifts, but I'm not sure if they have two jobs or if the hospital accomodates them working in 2 departments. The orthopedist has told me that he is more than happy to have EM trained folks in his fellowship.

Patients at this office consist of all levels of athletes, and there is a very large referral base.

There are a number of sports medicine fellowships that accept EM folks (a quick FREIDA search shows a few in the Northeast, and I think Vanderbilt does, there are probably more as well).
 
There are tons of sports medicine fellowships that accept EM trained folks. They're just not listed on Frieda correctly.
 
There are tons of sports medicine fellowships that accept EM trained folks. They're just not listed on Frieda correctly.

http://www.newamssm.org/map.pdf
This is the official website of American Medical Society for Sports Medicine, and this has the list of all the accredited sports medicine fellowships in US and Canada. This will also tell you which program accepts EM residents or not.
 
I asked an EM-sports med how he spent his day (divided his time).

He basically does 2 EM shifts a week and 2 days in sports-med clinic. Orthopedic surgeons like to operate. They think of clinic as the price you have to pay to play. (I have had many tell me clinic is their only complaint about their specialty.) Thus surgeons love to have fellowship-trained physicians see pts in clinic, manage the non-op stuff, and send the ones who need surgery their way. So you will never have a problem finding work.

When you start your fellowship you might need to really read and focus on the non-acute stuff you dont see in the ED. But you will be fine, especially if you enjoy the field and probably read more about that kind of stuff during residency. How you envision your career, if you like the idea of splitting time between clinic and the ED or prefer to work only in a clinic is another question. But I agree, if you plan to work soley in a clinic, I would do more training in a clinic.
 
I asked an EM-sports med how he spent his day (divided his time).

He basically does 2 EM shifts a week and 2 days in sports-med clinic. Orthopedic surgeons like to operate. They think of clinic as the price you have to pay to play. (I have had many tell me clinic is their only complaint about their specialty.) Thus surgeons love to have fellowship-trained physicians see pts in clinic, manage the non-op stuff, and send the ones who need surgery their way. So you will never have a problem finding work.

When you start your fellowship you might need to really read and focus on the non-acute stuff you dont see in the ED. But you will be fine, especially if you enjoy the field and probably read more about that kind of stuff during residency. How you envision your career, if you like the idea of splitting time between clinic and the ED or prefer to work only in a clinic is another question. But I agree, if you plan to work soley in a clinic, I would do more training in a clinic.

On a per hour basis does he make anything near what he makes in the ED? If you don't know, would anyone here care to guess. I kinda like the idea of an Orthopod paying me oh lets say, 1000 dollars to cover his clinic for a day while he is in the OR. Dont know how happy the patients would be about not seeing their surgeon before or after surgery though.
 
On a per hour basis does he make anything near what he makes in the ED? If you don't know, would anyone here care to guess. I kinda like the idea of an Orthopod paying me oh lets say, 1000 dollars to cover his clinic for a day while he is in the OR. Dont know how happy the patients would be about not seeing their surgeon before or after surgery though.

Most don't see peri-op patients, but pts with non-operative injuries. The sports med orthopod I know has a PA for peri-op stuff, actually.
 
Why pay 1,000 dollars for a doctor to run your clinic when you can pay a PA 160?
 
God the IR PA butchered my patient today. Threw him around like a piece of meat, made a bloody mess of things, left the old cath still taped in place and then left a bloody bandage half dangling off the "sterile" cath site.

Some Para-professionals are not very professional
 
On a per hour basis does he make anything near what he makes in the ED? If you don't know, would anyone here care to guess. I kinda like the idea of an Orthopod paying me oh lets say, 1000 dollars to cover his clinic for a day while he is in the OR. Dont know how happy the patients would be about not seeing their surgeon before or after surgery though.

He sees new pts and his own return pts who he is treating non-operatively. Like pts with runners knee, stress fxs, etc. If they need surgery or it is a good option for them to consider he refers them to the OS for assesment and discuss and the surgeon then follows them before and after surgery. (And, yes, that may very well actually mean the surgeon's PA!) So basically the EM guy has his own clinic practice, and the OS's love it that way since they dont have to see non-op injuries and can see pts who have been "screened" and are generally good surgical candidates.

It is an academic med center, so he gets paid a base salary plus a percentage of all collections over a certain amount. No idea how his clinic days compare to his ED days.

Are you really thinking of just doing sports-med clinic? If so, I would think a more clinically-based residency would be a better idea. Medicine, peds, or family. Also, see if you can get in touch with someone who does this and talk about it with him or her. It may require some long-distance mentoring, but it would probably be worth it if you are seriously leaning in this direction!
 
I just finished a sports med rotation so I can comment on some of your questions. First of all, sports med would be more accurately called musculoskeletal medicine because most of the patients you see do not have sports related injuries, the have MS problems. The vast majority of musculoskeletal problems can be managed nonoperatively. I probably only saw a handful of patients during the entire month that needed an orthopedic evaluation. MS complaints are incredibly common--think about the prevelance of low back pain--and family med docs are not adequately trained in the diagnosis and treatment of these conditions. Think about the number of times on your family med or EM rotation when you saw people with MS complaints--generally you rule out serious pathology, then determine it is MS in nature, and prescribe some NSAIDs, muscle relaxers, and maybe some home exercises... and surprise they never get better.

Sports med docs almost never use muscle relaxers, and use NSAIDs only for very specific indications. They work very closely with PT to rehabilitate patients and they use the underlying pathology of the condition to guide treatment--for example, tennis elbow commonly called lateral epicondylitis actually has no inflammatory component when seen histologically; it's more appropriate to call it a tendinopathy than tendinitis; so antiinflammatory treatment has almost no role. Instead sports med docs will try to directly damage the scar tissue in the tendon which is the underlying problem and correctly rehabilitate the injury to allow proper healing. There are many different means to doing this but some include: prolotherapy, needle tenotomy, deep tissue massage + PT.

They do a decent amount of procedures, including lots of knee and subacromial injections as well as epidurals. Ultrasound is being used much more commonly to diagnose MS inflammation, tears, and calcifications as well as guide therapeutic injections. Common problems include disk herniations, spinal stenosis, tennis and golfers elbow, carpal tunnel, de Quervians, bicep tendonitis, shoulder impingement syndromes, rotator cuff and labral tears, knee osteoarthritis, meniscal tears, acl/mcl tears, petallofemoral syndromes, and plenty of other nonoperative sprains, strains, and fractures.

A typical day is seeing patients in clinic all day. Lots of injections. You become very skilled at the MS examination, reading lots of plain films and MRIs. And most have affiliations with local sports organizations whether professional or colleigate or private. So some afternoons and nights are spent attending games, training, practice, etc. The patients are varied with a good mix of young and old, athletic to immobile.

From what I was told by several sports med attendings, the problem with EM people doing sports med is that they will make a lot more money in the ED. So inevitably most of these people choose to do a few shifts a week in the ED rather than run a busy clinic. For fam med however, it is a pay raise, so most of those guys do exclusively sports med, although some like to keep some fam med patients because they enjoy family med. Your training however would be completely adequate if you did an EM residency. There is no real advantage to doing a FM or PMNR residency instead. And as another poster noted, ortho guys like surgery and hate clinic for the most part.. so it should be no problem finding a position handling exclusively nonoperative problems.

It's a small field but there should be more of these docs out there.. MS complaints are one of the few that require a patient to see a surgeon first.. If you are having headaches, you see a neurologist before you see a neurosurgeon.. BRBPR sees a GI specialist, not a colorectal surgeon.. CP sees a cardiologist, not a CT surgeon, and so on.. But if you have MS pain you are referred to an orthopedic surgeon instead of a MS specialist.. It's a paradigm that needs some shifting.

PM me if you have anymore questions.
 
Think long and hard about what your definition of "sports medicine" is and what type of practice you'd like to have.

I'm clearly biased, but I would highly suggest looking into PM&R if a practice like what the previous poster described is something that would interest you. You spend +/- half the residency in PM&R doing musculoskeletal medicine, EMG's, pain management, interventional spine care, gait, prosthetics and orthotics and nearly all of it working closely with your PT/OT colleagues......not to mention the rest of it dealing with impairment/disability of all kinds (CVA, SCI, TBI, amputation, etc). IMHO, that should really suit someone who desires to provide comprehensive non-operative musculoskeletal medicine.
 
Last edited:
I looked for resources on avg hrs, salary, pts seen, etc for FM + PCSM docs but couldn't find any. Can anyone help?
 
I would like to ask about a point someone mentioned in this forum, that a sports physician has to deal with quite a lot of treatment relating to people who undergo amputations. Is that true? Thanks🙂


I just finished a sports med rotation so I can comment on some of your questions. First of all, sports med would be more accurately called musculoskeletal medicine because most of the patients you see do not have sports related injuries, the have MS problems. The vast majority of musculoskeletal problems can be managed nonoperatively. I probably only saw a handful of patients during the entire month that needed an orthopedic evaluation. MS complaints are incredibly common--think about the prevelance of low back pain--and family med docs are not adequately trained in the diagnosis and treatment of these conditions. Think about the number of times on your family med or EM rotation when you saw people with MS complaints--generally you rule out serious pathology, then determine it is MS in nature, and prescribe some NSAIDs, muscle relaxers, and maybe some home exercises... and surprise they never get better.

Sports med docs almost never use muscle relaxers, and use NSAIDs only for very specific indications. They work very closely with PT to rehabilitate patients and they use the underlying pathology of the condition to guide treatment--for example, tennis elbow commonly called lateral epicondylitis actually has no inflammatory component when seen histologically; it's more appropriate to call it a tendinopathy than tendinitis; so antiinflammatory treatment has almost no role. Instead sports med docs will try to directly damage the scar tissue in the tendon which is the underlying problem and correctly rehabilitate the injury to allow proper healing. There are many different means to doing this but some include: prolotherapy, needle tenotomy, deep tissue massage + PT.

They do a decent amount of procedures, including lots of knee and subacromial injections as well as epidurals. Ultrasound is being used much more commonly to diagnose MS inflammation, tears, and calcifications as well as guide therapeutic injections. Common problems include disk herniations, spinal stenosis, tennis and golfers elbow, carpal tunnel, de Quervians, bicep tendonitis, shoulder impingement syndromes, rotator cuff and labral tears, knee osteoarthritis, meniscal tears, acl/mcl tears, petallofemoral syndromes, and plenty of other nonoperative sprains, strains, and fractures.

A typical day is seeing patients in clinic all day. Lots of injections. You become very skilled at the MS examination, reading lots of plain films and MRIs. And most have affiliations with local sports organizations whether professional or colleigate or private. So some afternoons and nights are spent attending games, training, practice, etc. The patients are varied with a good mix of young and old, athletic to immobile.

From what I was told by several sports med attendings, the problem with EM people doing sports med is that they will make a lot more money in the ED. So inevitably most of these people choose to do a few shifts a week in the ED rather than run a busy clinic. For fam med however, it is a pay raise, so most of those guys do exclusively sports med, although some like to keep some fam med patients because they enjoy family med. Your training however would be completely adequate if you did an EM residency. There is no real advantage to doing a FM or PMNR residency instead. And as another poster noted, ortho guys like surgery and hate clinic for the most part.. so it should be no problem finding a position handling exclusively nonoperative problems.

It's a small field but there should be more of these docs out there.. MS complaints are one of the few that require a patient to see a surgeon first.. If you are having headaches, you see a neurologist before you see a neurosurgeon.. BRBPR sees a GI specialist, not a colorectal surgeon.. CP sees a cardiologist, not a CT surgeon, and so on.. But if you have MS pain you are referred to an orthopedic surgeon instead of a MS specialist.. It's a paradigm that needs some shifting.

PM me if you have anymore questions.
 
No, not that many amputees. Sports med as described above is "MSK-ology." Athletes do come in for tendinopathies, stress fxs, strains, sprains, tears, etc etc, but for the most part its across the spectrum non-op stuff in non-athletes(the vast majority of MSK issues). Lots of injections, ultrasounding, orthotics, rehab and long term followup of acute and chronic injuries, patients that actually want to get better because they hurt. Sideline coverage is just a minor part and you really never need to "manage someones airway" or deal with spinal shock, etc. If you want to do SM, you would ideally do an FM residency, day to day office operations are what you will need to be good at.

IM docs are unprepared without training in pediatrics and peds docs have a reciprocal issue (Our program typically doesn't even consider applications from IM or Peds grads). Med/peds is acceptable but like EM, there's not as much exposure to outpatient clinic and thus there's some catch-up learning to do. PM&R would be an excellent alternative to FM for SM fellowship. We don't function as a midlevel, thankfully lol, the PAs do the hospital rounding and seeing post-ops. As PCSM we typically have our own separate set of rooms in the main ortho office and once every couple weeks we'll have someone that needs to be operated on (Jones fxs, etc). The Centers for medicare and medicaid services released this salary survey, puts sports medicine around $214-265K/year. (http://www.cms.gov/AcuteInpatientPPS/Downloads/AMGA_08_template_to_09.pdf)

I typically saw 20 pts/day on my sports med rotation, hours were 8:30a-4:30p, no nights, no weekends, occasional sideline coverage for local college and HS football.
 
Trying to resurrect this thread to ask a few related questions regarding sports med. I'm interested in EM and maybe trying to find a way to work with some sports teams on the side, so I hope someone out there knows a bit about this. Who exactly makes up the physician staff of professional sports teams? What about major events like the Olympics, World Cup, and other big tournaments that aren't regular occurrences? Does anyone know if there's kind of like a freelance system to do sports med on the side for events like this? If you're trained in sports med but don't want to do clinic work often, can you even try to make sports med part of your career?

Thanks in advance...
 
Top