emt help?

[Claren]

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So your management of emergency scenes has nothing to do with logic. Good to know.

Actually, what I meant was someone's reaction to an emergency often has little to do with logic. And many MD's do not have experience in managing "emergencies". Anesthesia, Surgery, Intensivist, ED, sure. Family practice, peds, derm, optho, not so much.

Also, spare me the blowhard attitude of "regardless of what letters come after your name."

Why is that a blowhard attitude? Just because you are an MD doesn't mean you automatically know how to manage every type of patient. Last I checked, that is why they stopped staffing Emergency departments with surgeons and family practice guys.

 

[SitraAchra]

Actually, what I meant was someone's reaction to an emergency often has little to do with logic. And many MD's do not have experience in managing "emergencies". Anesthesia, Surgery, Intensivist, ED, sure. Family practice, peds, derm, optho, not so much.



Why is that a blowhard attitude? Just because you are an MD doesn't mean you automatically know how to manage every type of patient. Last I checked, that is why they stopped staffing Emergency departments with surgeons and family practice guys.

No arguments here.

 

[BF2BC EMT]

Actually, what I meant was someone's reaction to an emergency often has little to do with logic. And many MD's do not have experience in managing "emergencies". Anesthesia, Surgery, Intensivist, ED, sure. Family practice, peds, derm, optho, not so much.



Why is that a blowhard attitude? Just because you are an MD doesn't mean you automatically know how to manage every type of patient. Last I checked, that is why they stopped staffing Emergency departments with surgeons and family practice guys.

Any MD who is not apart of an EMS agency and rolls up on scene looking to help is putting a huge target on their back for a lawsuit. You are right about many MD's not having experience in emergency situations(outside of a hospital). One doc a while back came up and had a very lively exchange of words with our medic over decisions being made on the pt. Very embarrassing, for both.

As stated before medics have control over the scene no matter who else is there (MD, PA, RN etc). Why any MD would want responsibility for the pt. is beyond me and can end up very bad for the MD on scene. We have cards in our service that our handed out to MD's on scene with company protocols and state laws, so the MD knows whats going to happen if they want to take control (help package, transport and stay with pt at hospital etc)

Ive had 3 MD's come on scene 2 were a great help as both times we were overwhelmed. The 3rd guy was toe 2 toe with our medic. Dont forget there are some creeps out there who will tell you they are a doctor/medic/emt/rn but you never know who's who. Its best to keep to yourself do your job and get in and get out or you might come out looking like a dummy

 

[Claren]

No arguments here.

Really? Are you the same guy who made the earlier posts of:

So your management of emergency scenes has nothing to do with logic. Good to know.

Also, spare me the blowhard attitude of "regardless of what letters come after your name.

Sounds like you're itching for an argument to me.

 

[SitraAchra]

Sounds like you're itching for an argument to me.

You clarified your earlier post, and I have nothing to add.

 

[Siggy]

Any MD who is not apart of an EMS agency and rolls up on scene looking to help is putting a huge target on their back for a lawsuit. You are right about many MD's not having experience in emergency situations(outside of a hospital). One doc a while back came up and had a very lively exchange of words with our medic over decisions being made on the pt. Very embarrassing, for both.

...and this is why physicians need to read and understand the law governing the practice of medicine in their state. California's Business and Professions code includes the following in the Medicine chapter.

2395. No licensee [physician], who in good faith renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency, shall be liable for any civil damages as a
result of any acts or omissions by such person in rendering the emergency care.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=02001-03000&file=2395-2398

Offer good faith assistance at the scene of an emergency? Absolutely no civil liability. To note, though, this specific protection applies only to physicians. The general populace Good Samaritan law is somewhere else.

 

[MCAT guy]

I've heard some EMTs come in with a chip on their shoulder and therefore the experience can actually hurt in admissions if combined with a person who isn't humble.

 

[eldoctor]

WARNING: THREAD HIJACK

Siggy (or anybody else who knows the answer), how do I go about get my license in CA? I just passed the NREMT and I am not quite sure where to go from here. I will be living in NY for a year, am I allowed to get my license there too or do I have to apply for reciprocity?

Thank you for the help guys.

/hijack

 

[BF2BC EMT]

WARNING: THREAD HIJACK

Siggy (or anybody else who knows the answer), how do I go about get my license in CA? I just passed the NREMT and I am not quite sure where to go from here. I will be living in NY for a year, am I allowed to get my license there too or do I have to apply for reciprocity?

Thank you for the help guys.

/hijack

California counties are all different, so go to or contact ahead of time the local county ems agency where you will be living and it shouldn't be to hard. Finding work is a different story, down here in OC, and most south cali (i think) fire runs all 911 and we back them up and transport. So if your an emt-p it might suck since you aren't FF. We do 911/IFT, so if your an emt-b you'll be back up to fire or dialysis taxi. If you have experience I would check the local hospitals and put in apps for ER tech jobs, more money and you'll be able to do more things.

 

[Siggy]

WARNING: THREAD HIJACK

Siggy (or anybody else who knows the answer), how do I go about get my license in CA? I just passed the NREMT and I am not quite sure where to go from here. I will be living in NY for a year, am I allowed to get my license there too or do I have to apply for reciprocity?

Thank you for the help guys.

/hijack

As said earlier, contact your LEMSA, which links can be found here. With NREMT done, the process to get an EMT license is relatively easy. You need a copy of your course completion certificate, your NREMT card, and have completed a Live Scan background check (available at most police departments, plus a few other places). Turn it in, and in a few days you'll get a state EMT card (it used to be a county card, but I believe that was changed to a state wide card with the reforms. Regardless, an often overlooked fact was that an EMT license was good state wide regardless of which county's name was on it, which was one of the reasons for the reforms put into place in July). However, a growing number of counties are requiring a "local accreditation" in order to practice in that county. The local accreditation courses are usually a short course that is an introduction to that county's setup and protocols.

However, in order to work, I also suggest looking into getting an Ambulance Driver Certificate through the DMV. The requirements can be found here.

 

[eldoctor]

Thanks for your help guys. You are le awesome.

 

[KD1655]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not go to EMT-Basic school to boost your resume. I helped teach an EMT-B class over the summer in which something like 40% of the students were pre-meds from Ivy League or other prestigious schools. To be honest, these student tended to do poorly compared with those students that had been doing EMS as an aide or observer for some time because those individuals knew how to use the equipment. Some of the students came right out and said that they were there to boost their CV and it really insulted some of my fellow paramedic instructors. One of them said something like, "Wow, it's nice to know that my chosen profession is only something to pad your resume". It didn't offend me so much because I am a pre-med but I have been doing 911 EMS for 7 years and I actually decided I wanted a career in medicine due to my EMS experience. My two cents: If you don't want to work in an EMS system, don't go to EMS or paramedic school and certainly don't tell your instructors that your just wanted to "pad" your resume with an EMT cert.

 

[SitraAchra]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not go to EMT-Basic school to boost your resume. I helped teach an EMT-B class over the summer in which something like 40% of the students were pre-meds from Ivy League or other prestigious schools. To be honest, these student tended to do poorly compared with those students that had been doing EMS as an aide or observer for some time because those individuals knew how to use the equipment. Some of the students came right out and said that they were there to boost their CV and it really insulted some of my fellow paramedic instructors. One of them said something like, "Wow, it's nice to know that my chosen profession is only something to pad your resume". It didn't offend me so much because I am a pre-med but I have been doing 911 EMS for 7 years and I actually decided I wanted a career in medicine due to my EMS experience. My two cents: If you don't want to work in an EMS system, don't go to EMS or paramedic school and certainly don't tell your instructors that your just wanted to "pad" your resume with an EMT cert.

I disagree, I think doing EMT-B school is fine for having something to add to your resume. Obviously it's not something that will set you too much apart from other applicants, but if you have an empty summer, it's good to get a different perspective of medicine.

Of course it's not a good idea to just state "I'm only doing this to pad my CV" to your instructors, but I always admitted I was applying to medical school. Theoretically you can run transports as a basic in between college and med school, I'm not sure what's wrong with that idea.

And having done the EMT course was a good way to learn some important rules of trauma and how to assess a patient for critical things that need to be quickly reversed.

I'm not sure why it matters whether the "Ivy league" college students did better or worse than students who already had experience in EMT training. It's a pass/fail exam. The reason why it's ok for someone to simply take the course to pad their CV is because it's not overly difficult, it's interesting, and it gives you interesting medical experience.

I recommend doing the accelerated summer course for pre-meds who want to get some fast-paced, relevant education. Any instructor that gets offended by a pre-med taking an EMT-B course needs to take a long look in the mirror and fix their insecurities in life. If the pre-med is a dick, that's another thing, but anyone that is med school caliber should have no problem getting through an EMT-B course.

 

[TarHeelEMT]

I disagree, I think doing EMT-B school is fine for having something to add to your resume. Obviously it's not something that will set you too much apart from other applicants, but if you have an empty summer, it's good to get a different perspective of medicine.

Of course it's not a good idea to just state "I'm only doing this to pad my CV" to your instructors, but I always admitted I was applying to medical school. Theoretically you can run transports as a basic in between college and med school, I'm not sure what's wrong with that idea.

And having done the EMT course was a good way to learn some important rules of trauma and how to assess a patient for critical things that need to be quickly reversed.

I'm not sure why it matters whether the "Ivy league" college students did better or worse than students who already had experience in EMT training. It's a pass/fail exam. The reason why it's ok for someone to simply take the course to pad their CV is because it's not overly difficult, it's interesting, and it gives you interesting medical experience.

I recommend doing the accelerated summer course for pre-meds who want to get some fast-paced, relevant education. Any instructor that gets offended by a pre-med taking an EMT-B course needs to take a long look in the mirror and fix their insecurities in life. If the pre-med is a dick, that's another thing, but anyone that is med school caliber should have no problem getting through an EMT-B course.

I taught the EMT-B class on Duke's campus for a couple of semesters, and I can't remember any other time in my professional life when my time was wasted to such an incredible degree. It was on par with the 6 month old kid with a slight fever that I took by ambulance at 2PM to the ED that was across the street when he had an appointment with his pediatrician at 4PM.

Aside from a handful of students who put forth effort and took something from the class, everyone else literally just sat there and occupied space with an air of complete disinterest, wanting only another entry for their medical school applications.

EMT-B is a very useful class, but it's nothing without field experience to back it up, and you have to put effort into it to get anything out of it. I definitely don't recommend it as a supplement to a pre-medical application unless the person has an interest in EMS independent of their desire to attend medical school.

 

[SitraAchra]

Fair points TarHeel. I really liked the EMT course I took especially the rideouts, and it would be a waste to do just as a supplement to your med school application.

Also, I wonder how many of your former students went on to med school, I'd hazard fewer than half. Poetic justice in a way...

 

[TarHeelEMT]

Fair points TarHeel. I really liked the EMT course I took especially the rideouts, and it would be a waste to do just as a supplement to your med school application.

Also, I wonder how many of your former students went on to med school, I'd hazard fewer than half. Poetic justice in a way...

I'd hazard to say you're probably right. That stuff has a way of shining through on an application.

 

[Siggy]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not go to EMT-Basic school to boost your resume. I helped teach an EMT-B class over the summer in which something like 40% of the students were pre-meds from Ivy League or other prestigious schools. To be honest, these student tended to do poorly compared with those students that had been doing EMS as an aide or observer for some time because those individuals knew how to use the equipment. Some of the students came right out and said that they were there to boost their CV and it really insulted some of my fellow paramedic instructors. One of them said something like, "Wow, it's nice to know that my chosen profession is only something to pad your resume". It didn't offend me so much because I am a pre-med but I have been doing 911 EMS for 7 years and I actually decided I wanted a career in medicine due to my EMS experience. My two cents: If you don't want to work in an EMS system, don't go to EMS or paramedic school and certainly don't tell your instructors that your just wanted to "pad" your resume with an EMT cert.

1. EMS is a trade, not a profession. EMS can become a profession when they start requiring college degrees, require all education facilites to be accredited, and actually make decisions past calling med control to 'put the liability on the physician." As EMS currently stands given the education requirements and the general attitude among EMS providers (both EMTs and paramedics), it's not a profession.

2. If the only students that are succeeding are those that had prior experience as first responders or with extensive ride alongs prior to starting EMT school, then the instructors need to be fired. Obviously something is missing when it comes to teaching psychmotor skills. After all, within the first semester all medical students at my school were doing a more extensive physical exam than an EMT does. A physical exam that including obtaining vital signs manually.

3. Your instructors need a thicker skin.

 

[Siggy]

I'm not sure why it matters whether the "Ivy league" college students did better or worse than students who already had experience in EMT training. It's a pass/fail exam. The reason why it's ok for someone to simply take the course to pad their CV is because it's not overly difficult, it's interesting, and it gives you interesting medical experience.

The NREMT exam or state exam is the licensing exam for EMS providers just like the USMLE and COMLEX are licensing exams. Remember, all of them are technically pass/fail. 😀

 

[BF2BC EMT]

1. EMS is a trade, not a profession. EMS can become a profession when they start requiring college degrees, require all education facilites to be accredited, and actually make decisions past calling med control to 'put the liability on the physician." As EMS currently stands given the education requirements and the general attitude among EMS providers (both EMTs and paramedics), it's not a profession.

2. If the only students that are succeeding are those that had prior experience as first responders or with extensive ride alongs prior to starting EMT school, then the instructors need to be fired. Obviously something is missing when it comes to teaching psychmotor skills. After all, within the first semester all medical students at my school were doing a more extensive physical exam than an EMT does. A physical exam that including obtaining vital signs manually.

3. Your instructors need a thicker skin.

Right on. I didnt have a problem telling my instructor my future plans. EMS is fun and a great stepping stone as is paramedic. EMT (even though in California we cant do anything) really helped push me to continue my education. Sitting in the back of an ambo with the population base we pick up around LA gets old really quick.

Some people Ive come across in the field are down right cringeworthy. Another reason to get in for a little and get out, focus, study,volunteer, shadow etc etc. I know its different around the country rural/metro/subs and different protocols you may not have anything really exciting to put.

I do love EMS though and it does teach you responsibility and priority and it has been done to death but ill say it anyways🙂 EMS is very much underpaid

 

[MCAT guy]

EMS is way underpaid.

I believe basics earn 18,000 per year and medic is 35,000?

Ouch. Especially for all the crap they make you do and the back injuries and stress.

EMT is a super rough career. You know how easy it is to earn 40,000? You can sit on your ass and earn 40,000.

 

[SitraAchra]

EMS is way underpaid.

I believe basics earn 18,000 per year and medic is 35,000?

Is it though? You need a GED and completing EMT-Basic takes 2 months in an accelerated course, then you're ready to run transports.

That's not a lot of training. There are lots of jobs that require a high school education and a few months of vocational training that are in the $20-40k range. That's why people go to college, to get the "sit on your ass $40k jobs" like being a teacher or something.

EMT is blue collar, heavy lifting stuff. Just because it's physically demanding doesn't mean it should pay better. From all the stories I hear from one of my friends who is in the EMS industry, medics are constantly complaining about their jobs. I always wonder, for the love of God, if they don't like it why don't they quit.

 

[BF2BC EMT]

Is it though? You need a GED and completing EMT-Basic takes 2 months in an accelerated course, then you're ready to run transports.

That's not a lot of training. There are lots of jobs that require a high school education and a few months of vocational training that are in the $20-40k range. That's why people go to college, to get the "sit on your ass $40k jobs" like being a teacher or something.

EMT is blue collar, heavy lifting stuff. Just because it's physically demanding doesn't mean it should pay better. From all the stories I hear from one of my friends who is in the EMS industry, medics are constantly complaining about their jobs. I always wonder, for the love of God, if they don't like it why don't they quit.

Ok, even if its 2 months its still 130-40 + hours and demands more money. Blue collar or not your helping people in potentially life threatening situations. Its a sad day when the local trash man can bring in just as much/if not more money then someone who is saving a life. An EMS job is just as dangerous as a cop/ff but good luck pulling their salary. With the amount of hours worked and the conditions in which its done, some more respect is well deserved

Flip side though a lot of the time your getting paid to sit in a parking lot, eat/sleep/chat whatever. You are right, get up and continue your education and give yourself a chance to move up in the medical world.

 

[Siggy]

Is it though? You need a GED and completing EMT-Basic takes 2 months in an accelerated course, then you're ready to run transports.

2 months for an accelerated course? What, exactly, is your definition of accelerated? 3 months seems to be the normal length and an accelerated course is more around 2 weeks. Of course, regardless of the calendar length, you're still looking at about 110-130 hours. I believe that 160 is recommended under the new national education standards, which of course individual states are free to ignore.

 

[SitraAchra]

Ok, even if its 2 months its still 130-40 + hours and demands more money. Blue collar or not your helping people in potentially life threatening situations. Its a sad day when the local trash man can bring in just as much/if not more money then someone who is saving a life. An EMS job is just as dangerous as a cop/ff but good luck pulling their salary. With the amount of hours worked and the conditions in which its done, some more respect is well deserved

Flip side though a lot of the time your getting paid to sit in a parking lot, eat/sleep/chat whatever. You are right, get up and continue your education and give yourself a chance to move up in the medical world.

So, 2 months of accelerated training is infact 120-140 hours. Breaking it down from months to hours isn't an argument for more pay you're just changing the time increment.

I'd be careful comparing EMTs to cops. You're taught first and foremost "is this scene safe?" and if you don't think so, you are not obligated to go in. Cops are. They get more training as well so I wouldn't be asking for comparable pay.

I think EMTs get adequate respect from the public. I'm not sure any of your demands are at all reasonable.

 

[SitraAchra]

2 months for an accelerated course? What, exactly, is your definition of accelerated? 3 months seems to be the normal length and an accelerated course is more around 2 weeks. Of course, regardless of the calendar length, you're still looking at about 110-130 hours. I believe that 160 is recommended under the new national education standards, which of course individual states are free to ignore.

I don't remember the exact duration of the course I took but it was about 140 hours, classes were 4 hours per day and around 3 days a week if I recall. It might have taken closer to 3 months. Regardless, it's not a long time.

 

[BF2BC EMT]

So, 2 months of accelerated training is infact 120-140 hours. Breaking it down from months to hours isn't an argument for more pay you're just changing the time increment.

I'd be careful comparing EMTs to cops. You're taught first and foremost "is this scene safe?" and if you don't think so, you are not obligated to go in. Cops are. They get more training as well so I wouldn't be asking for comparable pay.

I think EMTs get adequate respect from the public. I'm not sure any of your demands are at all reasonable.

Careful? Scene safety? scene dynamics switch so quick, they go from safe to unsafe in an instant. Sorry I shouldnt have compared the 2 I should have said an EMT's job at times is more dangerous. Nothing like picking up a pt. who decides to go ballistic only after you have him loaded and ready to go and its just you and him in the back of an ambulance. If you think an unarmed EMT is safer then an armed LEO is safer in that situation👎

 

[Siggy]

If you think an unarmed EMT is safer then an armed LEO is safer in that situation👎

You think being armed in the back of a modified van makes you safer? There's a reason for the 21 foot guideline in regards to edged weapons. Armed vs unarmed doesn't matter when the opponent is within arms length.

 

[BF2BC EMT]

You think being armed in the back of a modified van makes you safer? There's a reason for the 21 foot guideline in regards to edged weapons. Armed vs unarmed doesn't matter when the opponent is within arms length.

Still protected with a vest, none the less. Someone who is smart enough to wait until you clear the scene to start acting out is smart enough to know attacking a EMT wont result in them being shot, so yes i think being in the back of a modified van and armed would make you safer. I dont even know how we got to this point😕 I started going way into left field. I still think EMT's are well underpaid. CNA's make more and I think theyre class time is just as long and they have WAY less responsibility.

*I may be wrong on the classroom time I havent checked.

 

[Siggy]

CNA's make more and I think theyre class time is just as long and they have WAY less responsibility.

Supply and demand. You're going to have to pay me a lot more to work as a CNA than work as an EMT. I'd also argue that the responsibility of a CNA is a lot more than an EMT. You really can't screw up being an EMT because the right answer is going to essentially be "place patient on gurney. Drive to destination." The scope of practice is just way too limited to do either harm or good to the majority of patients (no, regardless what is taught in class, supplemental oxygen is not a miracle drug that should be administered to all patients at a rate of 15 L/min via NRB mask). However CNAs can easily induce bed sores in their bed bound patients. Now also consider that the patient😛rovider ratio is flipped. EMS: 2 EMTs (or higher) to 1 patient. SNF or hospital: Several patients (depending on facility for final number) to 1 CNA+RN (however the ratio for patients per RN and patients to CNA are different).

The bottom line is that being an EMT is much more savory of a position than being a CNA.