Engineer, wanting to go for neuroscience, Ph.D. or MSTP?

[Newmanium]

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First of all, I'm an electrical engineer, couple years out of school, who is wanting to go back and study neuroscience in either a straight Ph.D., or a MD/Ph.D. I realize this is a board for MD students, but I haven't found anything similar for Ph.D. type stuff (and I hold the MD out as a possibility). I posted here about a year ago and got some helpful responses, and now I'm beginning to narrow down my choices.

My problem is that I don't have *any* research experience. I had a solid GPA (3.8+), good volunteer experience, but nothing in research. My letters from college will also be weak since it's been so long, and I never was the type to get involved with teachers anyway (I figured the answer out on my own, never went to office hours - wish I had now). This kind of rules out applying for MSTP or Ph.D. programs immediately, both because I'm lacking in the prereqs for medical school (didn't do the advanced chemistry or biology), and because I don't have research experience. The options I'm considering:

1) Go back and get an undergrad degree in neuroscience. This seems the most drastic and depressing choice (more undergrad!!), but it would give me all the prereqs, allow me to get some research experience, and give me some time to figure out which path I want to head down. I would like to do some sort of computational approach to neuroscience, which would still be possible at this point. So, most drastic, but also most flexible.

2) Try to find a master's degree that doesn't require research experience. I have found one so far at Carnegie Mellon in Computational Biology that has the potential to be a reasonable fit. I would end up taking some extra time to get all the prereqs for chem/biology, but I would be doing a little more advanced work, and could probably go on from here to either a Ph.D. or a MSTP program fairly easily (well, at least have a chance). This seems the most desirable to me - but very few programs offer Master's programs like this, so the selection is quite limited.

3) Try to head straight into a Ph.D. neuroscience program. This doesn't seem likely at all without research experience, but I suppose I could try my luck. I sure wish these programs were less competitive to get into.

Anybody have any better ideas? I have spent the last month or so researching this (actually doing it for years now, keep getting stymied), and I'm more than a little frustrated with my predicament. Why aren't there more programs catering to career switchers into the sciences? I'm guessing it must not be very common.

On a sidenote, one problem with all the above options is that they require me to move from my home city - which will be difficult due to extenuating circumstances. To alleviate this, another option related to number 1 is to go to my local college and get a undergrad biochemistry degree. The problem is that it's a generic state school, and I wouldn't really be getting a taste of neuroscience stuff yet - but it would be the easiest option. My worry is that I would end up spending 2 years on a worthless degree that Ph.D./MSTP programs will shrivel up their noses at.

Any help is *much* appreciated - thanks!!

 

[Gold 5]

How long have you been out of school? Most allopathic schools want your core bio / chem / physics / orgo within the last 5-7 years. My .02 cents is to go find a MS program in neuro and go onto a PhD. The MD route will be harder to get into and a lot of hours with sick people in years 3 & 4 for someone not really interested in practicing (from my quick reading of your post).

PS I completed a MS in CS coming from an BS in EE (like you) without much difficulty. Most programs will let you start part time and skip all the entrance exams. Once in and you are doing the coursework well, they will bump you up to full time!

 

[shoe23]

hi
have you thought of a more interdisciplinary programs that includes neuroscience? I was a chem eng undergraduate and I applied to the Biophysics PhD program at Berkeley and studied computational neuroscience (and was there for 2.5 years before I got married and left with a master).

http://biophysics.berkeley.edu/

There are a lot of engineering students (especially electrical eng) there and I doubt they have many biology lab experience. Also, the program is small and not many people know about it so they probably consider each individual's situation more carefully. I would encourage you to check out other biophysics programs as well.

good luck. any more question, feel free to pm me. 🙂

 

[NE Ohio Penguin]

Just wondering why it has to be MD/PhD? Why not DDS/PhD??

A PhD is a PhD is a PhD.

 

[Newmanium]

Do any of the post-bacc programs offer the ability to take extra time to get research experience? I noticed the PREP programs that a few of them offer, but it appears those are for minorities only? That's *exactly* what I would want (time to get research, extra classes, mentoring) - but I'm not a URM.

And why not a DDS/PhD? I want Neuroscience, how would a DDS help me there?

 

[gman33]

If you are only interested in a career in research, I wouldn't go the MD/PhD route. Try to get some research experience and then apply to PhD programs. I would start by getting in touch with some of the programs you are interested in.

 

[Newmanium]

I know for sure I want to do research, but I want to keep my options open regarding the MD - I know the general direction that I want to proceed, will make certain decisions once I'm farther along.

Ideally I'll go for some sort of post-bacc program that has a research component, so I can be prepared for either a Ph.D. or an MD/Ph.D. Does anybody know if these exist?

 

[Neuronix]

You need to decide now if you want to be a pre-med or not. In a lot of ways MSTP is more like applying to medical school with a lot of research tacked on. You take the MCAT, you take the pre-med requirements, you have to have very high GPA (you do, great), and you are still completing a MD and going off to residency. It seems that the majority of MD/PhDs graduate and do mostly clinical work. So consider that strongly when you're thinking about this. You're an older guy, so the path of least resistance if you're serious about research is a PhD.

If you do want to do med school or MD/PhD, try to arrange what I call an unofficial post-bacc wherever you went to undergrad or at the local undergrad. Nobody gives a damn that it is "no name" so don't worry about paying $40k/year to go attend Penn's SMP or something insane like that. Talk to a pre-med advisor there about what courses you'll need to apply to med school or MD/PhD. Then just take them with the undergrads if possible. I've seen this done at many institutions, so it's probably not uncommon. Trying to get financial aid for this can be tricky, though the government says you can if you're at least a half-time student or you can pay out of pocket. Some people get jobs on campus and the school pays for their classes. This might be tricky for you because you want RESEARCH if you're thinking about MD/PhD, but it's worth a shot. You'll want to make a timeline for when you can get those courses done and take the MCAT and apply.

While you're at it, you'll want to find a lab to work in. This will probably be volunteer work--don't expect to get paid. As an eletrical engineer you'd be welcome in just about any lab that has a highly electrical component to their research methods--like electrophysiology or basic neuroradiology labs. This may not be easy for you to find so just be flexible for now. For MD/PhD you'll need roughly 2 years full-time.

If you do want to go for a straight PhD there's lots of different things you could try. You just need to find a job in a lab asap. If you commit to two years full-time you might find one that will pay you, though how to find this and where they might be is hard for me to say. Based on your lab experience you could then apply to PhD programs potentially in all sorts of things and still study the brain. I used to work in a neuromorphic systems lab for example that was headed by an EE guy and a Neuroscience guy for example. I'm not sure that lab still exists, but there's all sorts of interfaces between the two departments which means you may not actually need to do a Neuroscience PhD. You could concievably join a BE or Biophysics department as well. But, if you can find a job in a Neuroscience lab you could still probably get into a Neuroscience PhD program, especially with some neuro classes on the side.

The other option here would be to find a masters in EE (do these exist?). Try to find a program that has the sort of EE<->Neuroscience connections I'm talking about and use that as a transition to PhD. If that doesn't exist there are other masters' programs you could try. Part of this is would be driven by your interests of course.

So the first thing you need to do is decide which goal you're aiming for--MD or PhD or both. The both pathway is the hardest one, so you're going to have to decide if that time commitment (first to get your app enough to get in AND THEN to complete a MD/PhD and residency and etc) is worth that. Then either pathway has different considerations. Hopefully I gave you the best options above. Once you decide what you're really looking for only then is it better to go into specifics of where to go for that thing. I think the best option for keeping MD OR PhD options open is the unofficial post-bacc route with lab work on the side. Just realize that trying to do both full-time will be a challenge, both mentally and financially.

Good luck,
Eric

 

[Newmanium]

Boy Eric, thanks for the great reply - all the things you mentioned are ones that I'm considering, so it's good to know I'm on the right track.

I live near a teaching hospital, so there are some volunteer options in both clinical and lab research. Nothing in the exact areas I'm interested in, but probably close enough. From what I've gathered, the most important thing is to get experience, so general medical research should be fine.


As far as the MD - my main reason for considering it is the fear that I'll end up doing some sort of research where it would be extremely helpful. I don't know enough about my specific focus to rule things out right now. I think I'll know more after getting some basic research experience for a year. I realize how difficult it would be to add the MD on, so if I find out it's not required for my interests, I'll only too gladly stick to just the Ph.D.


I wish graduate school for science was more like law school. A few years ago I applied to law schools fresh out of college, and as a reasonably competent engineer, it was fairly easy to get into most any school, quite often with full scholarships - all you need is a good LSAT score which most schools salivate over. Then when you're in school, summer jobs paid about $2400 a week, and of course the starting salaries were all $125k+. Law schools make it very, very easy to become a lawyer.

Not that I'm complaining, I'm surprised it's so different - quite the messed up society we live in. You don't have to pay people much to do meaningful things, I guess that's what it comes down to.

Thanks again for all the advice and thoughts, I really appreciate them. I'm exploring all the options mentioned above, and will hopefully have something figured out in the next 3-6 months. BTW, they do have lots of Masters/Ph.D in EE programs (tons of them!), and that might be a good option for somebody like me. Carnegie Mellon has a Computational Biology program which seems to offer a blend that would probably "fit" with an engineer.

It'll be a heck of a long journey, but sure beats the daylights out of plain engineering or law.

 

[BluePhoenix]

I agree with the above posters, you do need to decide MD or not. There are lots of researchers in neuroscience that don't have MDs and if research is really want you want to do, getting an MD is expensive and time consuming without much benefit. The only reason you need an MD is if you want to physically treat people. You can still do clinical studies without them and often times, projects are collaborations of a variety of people with MDs or PhDs.

I wouldn't do a masters in EE...it's pretty irrelevant to neuroscience. Instead, I'd suggest looking around at masters programs in neuroscience or fields that are related. Because you generally pay for masters programs, they're not as difficult to get into compared with PhD and MD programs (schools don't care when it's a few years and you're footing the bill)...all you need is a decent GRE (way way easier than the LSAT or MCAT) and decent grades. Most programs will have some sort of research component and have the added benefit that if you really like what you're researching, you can apply for the PhD program and it's a lot easier to get in if you're doing good research and your PI will recommend you (some schools will even let you skip the whole application thing).

Another idea, there are programs out there designed to give people research experience (assuming you've got all the basic coursework). I believe Mayo has something like this, where they pretty much just train you in research and I think you get a moderate salary. They also have an excellent neuro program. Keep in mind, if you're enthusiastic and motivated, you can overcome any lacking background if you're easy to train. (I work in the neuro department and I have a physics background with literally no bio background at all).

 

[Newmanium]

Well, my primary focus is on schizophrenia research - which has led me to neuroscience. However, as an engineer, I'm not sure of the exact "tool set" I want to commit to. I want to unlock the mysteries of schizophrenia, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get there. I truly wish I could focus on it from a multi-disciplinarian point of view - having the freedom to jump into whatever research area seems most promising at the time.

Ideally I'd end up in a lab where they focused on schizophrenia from multiple angles - clinical side, latest research, drugs, etc. My goal is to learn enough about schizophrenia to do some research, and then if that research is eventually successful, then take it and try to use it in some clinical fashion to actually help people.

However, I realize that in all likelihood, this is a big enough problem that it will absorb the rest of my life just on the research side of things - let alone in taking new discoveries over to the clinical side, so I don't know how realistic my plans are.

I'm committed to just jumping into some research in the next 6 months or so, which will probably answer a lot of these questions. Once I can talk to researchers, and see what the actual field looks like, I'm sure I'll have a much better idea (and can then answer questions like these at some point for others!!).

Thanks again.

 

[BluePhoenix]

You might want to check out the new PhD program in Clinical and Translational Research offered at Mayo. It's a combination of lab research and clinical research...which is what most neuro stuff tends to be. There's a masters program as well. It's pretty much based on the idea of doing research in a lab and then learning how to take that research into the clinic and apply it to patients. Dr. Windebank is the director of the program, a really awesome neuro guy (also former dean of the mayo med school and mayo grad school). So, at worst, he might be someone to talk to just in terms of getting some direction as to where to go.

 

[iktiw]

I'm still not entirely clear on why you want an MD. The PhD bit of an MD-PhD program is mainly to supplement the MD. It seems like you want it the other way around.

Have you looked at clinical neuropsychology PhD programs?
They seem more up your alley. You would end up doing hospital rotations. And I *think* in a couple states clinical neuropsychologists can be allowed to prescribe drugs. The only thing is that you'd have to find a good topic that bisects both neuroscience and clinical psych. Since you're interested in schizophrenia, that would be perfect.

 

[Perrotfish]

I have no idea why you´d want and MD considering you interests. I do know a bunch of EEs who are doing what you want to do (and none of them have MDs), thought you might be interested in their group:

http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/

 

[ukp]

EE is actually quite relevant to neuroscience. There is a lot of work in deep brain stimulation and other implantable devices (cochlear implants, retinal prostheses, neurostimulators) for which your background would be ideal. I'd recommend looking into biomedical engineering programs that have bridges to neuroscience programs.

One that I'm particularly familiar with is UCLA (I recently graduated), although that may be a bit of a move for you. They have a neuroengineering training program where you have a advisors in both BME and Neuroscience and you cobble together a project combining them. You can enter either through the Neuroscience PhD program (http://www.neuroscience.ucla.edu/) or through the Biomedical Engineering graduate program (http://www.bme.ucla.edu/programs/fieldsofbme.html#field7) (either MS or PhD). I know MD-PhDs who have taken either the Neuroscience or BME route. I think admission into the BME MS program would be easier to get and has pretty minimal prerequisites. And they have a straightforward path to the PhD program if you complete things successfully.

Good luck,
-Uday

 

[bnleong]

How do you even know you want to do research with no experience. I just started doing neuroscience research and it isn't so glamorous as I thought it would be. Most PHD neuroscience students are miserable. Prepare to spend hours at a desk looking in a microscope and pipetting chemicals. I bet after a week of volunteering at a research lab you'll go back to desiging your circuits.

 

[Newmanium]

How do you even know you want to do research with no experience. I just started doing neuroscience research and it isn't so glamorous as I thought it would be. Most PHD neuroscience students are miserable. Prepare to spend hours at a desk looking in a microscope and pipetting chemicals. I bet after a week of volunteering at a research lab you'll go back to desiging your circuits.

heh, blast from the past. I've learned a lot more about neuroscience from a year ago, and I can agree with you. Specifically, I was interested in computational neuroscience (seems like a good combo with the engineering), but after attending a conference on the subject, I was pretty bored.

Essentially, I wanted to do modelling of the brain at a higher level than is currently possible - a few labs are doing this to some degree (supercomputer models of cortical columns in the rat brain, for instance). But that's pretty rare - most of the modelling is of very low-level chemical pathways. The state of the art is still pretty primitive (compared with the complexity of the brain). Eventually we'll get all these lower-level building blocks complete, and move on to higher level functioning - but that's probably 20-30 years away.

I ended up heading into a tangential field - brain research using MRI. It's a good combination with engineering, and way more interesting/fun.

I'm personally torn between either a medical, or a research career. I seesaw back and forth - but I'm in the happy position of loving what I do currently, so I'm just taking my time and enjoying the journey. Maybe I'll become a doctor someday, maybe I'll just be a research assistant forever... 😛

 

[dragonfly99]

Just my 2 cents, but you sound like a master's or PhD guy...you're very much into the research side of things. I wouldn't bother with the MD...you don't need it for what it sounds like you want to do and it will cost you a ton of time and $ to do both MD and PhD.

 

[Newmanium]

Just my 2 cents, but you sound like a master's or PhD guy...you're very much into the research side of things. I wouldn't bother with the MD...you don't need it for what it sounds like you want to do and it will cost you a ton of time and $ to do both MD and PhD.

I'm very much on the fence. If I decide to stay in research, I probably will skip the MD and just do a PhD.

The only reason I'm considering medical school is for a switch into patient care, completely ditching research. I like ER, I might like Radiology, I might like peds. Medical research, and clinical care are almost two completely different career paths. I know some people attempt to bridge them, but they're still very different fields and focuses.

I have no interest in being an MD PI. For me, it's much more enjoyable, research-wise, to assist the MD with the technical side of things. From what I've seen, most of the work involves fund-raising. This is like the inevitable choice every engineer faces after 10-15 years - do you decide to become management, or do you become "just" a technical expert. Becoming a PI seems like joining management to me.

 

[dutch84]

A lot of people are going to think you're crazy for wanting an MD, but I just want you to know that you're not alone. I'm looking to get a PhD in Neuroengineering and I also want a medical degree (preferably neurosurgery). I want to take the MD/PhD route, but what I want to do is seemingly uncharted territory. I can't find any info on how to get involved in this on the internet. Fortunately, I found out that the University of Rochester may offer such a program. I'm currently taking classes to boost my GPA and fulfill the engineering requirement to enter the program.

Good luck to you!

 

[Bootedddd]

Newmanium,

It has been a while since you posted your ponderings. I'm a ME that is interested in a PhD in NeuroSci. I found a local school that would consider me as a student. However, I have a microbiology hole that you could drive a truck through and two kids in college. I'm looking at different courses of study and which background classes I need before jumping in. The locals said research is 5% subject interaction and 95% number crunching. This would be trading one basement for another. I am also interested in the imaging aspects, but want a more subject-oriented position.

Looking forward to some feedback! 👍

 

[clausewitz2]

As someone who is in a neurosci ph.d. program and knows many neuroscientists, modern neuroscience research involves writing lots and lots of Matlab scripts. Neuroscience has embarassingly large amounts of data; a lot of what people do is figuring out what to do with it.

If you really want lots of interaction with people, try going the cognitive neuroscience route. Your biology background or lack thereof will be irrelevant, and you will be working with human subjects, which means you will have all the interaction you can stand. Many people you recruit for your studies will not share your opinion that your time is at all valuable, so you will spend many hours cajoling and wheedling people into being in your studies.

If take an electrophysiology/neuroimaging approach in cognitive neuroscience, you'll even get your hi-tech gadget on, if that's your thing. It also tends to be much more flexible than bench work, especially bench work involving animals. The culture in bench neuroscience is much more like that in biology; if you have to sacc your animals at midnight and stay till 5 AM taking histological slices, you do it and are grateful for the opportunity.