Engineering to Radiology

[Chemmie]

Hi everyone,

This may be a long post, but I want to include everything I think is relevant to my situation.
TL;DR - I am an engineer but want to do something more meaningful. I like "the idea" of being a radiologist.

My background:
I just graduated (in May) with a B.S. in chemical engineering and am now working full-time as a chemical engineer. All throughout my undergrad, I had second thoughts about my major but stuck with it because I couldn't imagine switching majors due to all of the work I did and the friends I made (especially after junior year). I enjoyed a few of the classes because they made me think, but I didn't really enjoy any of them enough to want to work directly with that type of material every day. That was normal, I was told. My advisors said a chemical engineering degree is one of the most versatile degrees, and I could do anything I wanted with it. Problem is, I didn't know what exactly I wanted, so I took a job as a chemical engineer at a good company. I have only been working there for a few weeks but can already tell that I do not want to do this type of work for more than a year or two, max. It's not that I don't like it, because I do, but rather, I don't really think that what I am doing is benefitting society in any real way. Sure, you've probably used a piece of technology (maybe even today) that has something my company made in it, but working on just that one component is not really meaningful work to me.

Because I didn't think I'd actually pursue medicine, my undergraduate grades aren't stellar. I have a 3.7X gpa from a top-20 engineering school. I did do 2.5 years of research at my school and two REU's (with one being medically related). I haven't shadowed anyone, and I don't have significant recent volunteer experience. I had significant officer roles in two campus clubs, one being an honor society and the other a professional organization.

My interest in medicine and radiology specifically:
I've always been interested in the human body. It's amazing to me that there are so many things we don't know about its workings, and obviously (most) everyone relies on their body to live their life. While I have always been interested in becoming a doctor, I have also always been dissuaded from it. My father is a doctor in a solo practice and is constantly telling me and anyone who will listen that while he enjoys the work he does, the health care system makes it almost unbearable. Listening to this every day for 18 years pushed me away from pursuing something in the medical field.

The integration of technology into medicine drives me into radiology. I think this technology is awesome and definitely pushes the frontier of treatment. I enjoy working with computers, but I also crave to see my efforts help others.

My questions (Q) and concerns (C):
1. C: I've lost my chance at being successful at this path. While I have had great experiences that led me to the job I have now, I'm not entirely certain that the things I did will make up for not doing certain key things, like having a life-long pursuit of this goal.
2. Q: I haven't taken any college biology or biochemistry courses. Should I take these online through a university or online through a community college? I also didn't do that great in the organic series (B in I, C+ in II). Should I retake these? Do I really need to take biochem? I have taken several other chem classes.
3. C: The time and money involved in pursuing this path. I think everyone has this concern, but I'll be at least a year behind most people, maybe two.
4. Q: Should I just jump into shadowing a radiologist? There are several major hospitals near me, and I'm pretty sure that I can find one that has a radiologist working after I get off work.
5. Q: When would be the best time for me to apply to medical school? The earlier the better, right? That would mean starting next August. I have to take at least two bio classes and the MCAT.
6. C: I enjoy interacting with people. I imagine this varies from job to job, but radiology offers perhaps the least amount of patient interaction. As it is now, I interact with about 10 people regularly but basically work alone, and this is almost too lonely for me.


While I did have a few specific questions above, I'm basically looking for encouragement here. I am not entirely sure that this is what I want to do, but after thinking about it a bit, it does seem to be a better path for me than the one I am currently pursuing. If anyone here knows any resources or information to help me out, it would be awesome if you can share.

Thanks!

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[Winged Scapula]

My questions (Q) and concerns (C):
1. C: I've lost my chance at being successful at this path. While I have had great experiences that led me to the job I have now, I'm not entirely certain that the things I did will make up for not doing certain key things, like having a life-long pursuit of this goal.

There is NO need to have a lifelong interest in medicine to be successful. While that is the stereotype, you will find all sorts of students go into medicine.

2. Q: I haven't taken any college biology or biochemistry courses. Should I take these online through a university or online through a community college? I also didn't do that great in the organic series (B in I, C+ in II). Should I retake these? Do I really need to take biochem? I have taken several other chem classes.

In general, you can only retake courses in which you are eligible to replace the grades (at my undergraduate, that meant a D or below). Do NOT take any on-line courses. I will allow the other posters here to comment on whether or not a community college is ok but the conventional wisdom was to take as much as you could at the university level, in person. Biochem is not generally required but many note that they did better in medical school with some background in it.

3. C: The time and money involved in pursuing this path. I think everyone has this concern, but I'll be at least a year behind most people, maybe two.

Only you can determine whether the time and money is worth it. "A year, maybe two" is nothing honestly.

4. Q: Should I just jump into shadowing a radiologist? There are several major hospitals near me, and I'm pretty sure that I can find one that has a radiologist working after I get off work.

There is no reason to be specialty specific at this point. The role of medical school is to provide you a solid foundation of medical knowledge and skills. I'd think you'd be better off shadowing a clinically oriented physician but that's only because shadowing a radiologist, especially at night, sounds low yield and soporific. LOL

5. Q: When would be the best time for me to apply to medical school? The earlier the better, right? That would mean starting next August. I have to take at least two bio classes and the MCAT.

When you are ready with the best MCAT score you can get and the pre-reqs completed, or nearly so.

6. C: I enjoy interacting with people. I imagine this varies from job to job, but radiology offers perhaps the least amount of patient interaction. As it is now, I interact with about 10 people regularly but basically work alone, and this is almost too lonely for me.

Please get away from the idea that you are going to medical school to be a radiologist so I wouldn't worry about the work environment at this point in time. Most students change their mind; even if you don't radiologists interact with patients and other physicians. Unless you are doing tele radiology and reading films from home, there can be as much or as little interaction as you like. Disclosure: I am not a radiologist.

 

[Chemmie]

Thank you very much for your specific answers. They are very helpful. Is it really bad to go into medical school knowing what specialty one wants to be? I would have thought it would be helpful to have an idea what I want to do after medical school but still keep an open mind in case something else interests me more.

Why do you say no to online classes? I work pretty much 8-4:30 every day, so it will be difficult for me to find an in-person class that accommodates my schedule. Honestly I learn better at my own pace anyway and get little from classroom lectures. I live within 10 minutes of the university I'd take the online class from, so I *could* drive there anytime and meet with the professor.

 

[raiderette]

If you consider DO you can retake the o-chem sequence for grade replacement. Biochem is a big part of the new MCAT and since you have a year of bio, that will be your test.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thank you very much for your specific answers. They are very helpful. Is it really bad to go into medical school knowing what specialty one wants to be? I would have thought it would be helpful to have an idea what I want to do after medical school but still keep an open mind in case something else interests me more.

No, its not "really bad" but its unnecessary because most faculty will view that interest with a heavy dose of the old grain of salt. It smacks of naivety as well as arrogance, that you could actually know what you want to do without experiencing other fields and that you see medical school as specialty specific training rather than the broad based education its supposed to be.

Why do you say no to online classes? I work pretty much 8-4:30 every day, so it will be difficult for me to find an in-person class that accommodates my schedule. Honestly I learn better at my own pace anyway and get little from classroom lectures. I live within 10 minutes of the university I'd take the online class from, so I *could* drive there anytime and meet with the professor.

I say no because many/most medical schools will not accept on-line courses to fulfill pre-med requirements at this point in time, and many of the required courses have lab components which require in person attendance. You are certainly not the first non-trad to have to work full time while taking pre-med coursework; you have to find a way to make it work (I did as have many others before you). You might find some help in our Non-Trad forum.

 

[Chemmie]

Gotcha. I do like the idea that medical school provides a broad foundation, and if I do in fact attend, then I will keep an open mind as to what I will ultimately practice.

That's interesting about the online courses. I took one (calc 3) during my undergraduate work, and there's basically no way to tell looking at my transcript that it was online. The two courses I need to take do have an online lab section, although I'm not entirely sure how that would work..

 

[Winged Scapula]

Gotcha. I do like the idea that medical school provides a broad foundation, and if I do in fact attend, then I will keep an open mind as to what I will ultimately practice.

That's interesting about the online courses. I took one (calc 3) during my undergraduate work, and there's basically no way to tell looking at my transcript that it was online. The two courses I need to take do have an online lab section, although I'm not entirely sure how that would work..

Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of the MSAR published by the AAMC or look at websites of the schools you are planning to apply to; every one line I looked at before I replied to you stated that on-line courses are not acceptable. You do not want to run the risk of taking it on line and have it not accepted.

 

[Chemmie]

Thanks for the heads up. Sorry to bother you with so many questions, but do you know if this timeline would be generally acceptable? I'm worried I may be rushed if follow the below plan.

-Recommendations due Aug. (I have people who have already written me ones, so this shouldn't be a problem.)
-Take MCAT late August (Sept. 18th is last acceptable date for my 1st choice school).
-Application due in November
-Finish bio course 1 in Dec.
-Finish bio course 2 in May
-Quit job in May, travel via volunteer program
-Start med school in August

 

[Plecopotamus]

Thanks for the heads up. Sorry to bother you with so many questions, but do you know if this timeline would be generally acceptable? I'm worried I may be rushed if follow the below plan.

-Recommendations due Aug. (I have people who have already written me ones, so this shouldn't be a problem.)
-Take MCAT late August (Sept. 18th is last acceptable date for my 1st choice school).
-Application due in November
-Finish bio course 1 in Dec.
-Finish bio course 2 in May
-Quit job in May, travel via volunteer program
-Start med school in August

If you're talking about applying during the cycle that opens next month, you'd be hurting yourself with that MCAT date, and you won't get an acceptance regardless of GPA/MCAT without clinical experience (avg applicants have 100 hours of volunteering + some shadowing) . . . sorry if I missed something, as your post was long and I skimmed.

You need to factor an extra year into your plan to be successful.

Would a PhD be a better fit for someone interested more in technology and physiology than in diagnostic process and patient interaction?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree with the above - the time line above seems compressed for someone without clinical experience.

 

[nOchemallday]

I think applying this cycle is (mostly) out of the question. You have a solid GPA, but submitting your primary in September or later is getting quite late into the cycle. Especially considering you will be taking the MCAT prior to having taken any university-level biology. There are plenty of people that have taken the MCAT without all of the prerequisites (in fact I didn't finsh my physics sequence before taking the MCAT myself and still scored well in physical scienes), but you run the risk of getting a terrible MCAT score only to rush yourself to apply late in the cycle.

Realistically I think the following would be a stronger timeline that will really give you the opportunty to identify your career goals and also set you up for a better app cycle:
1.This summer, shadow a few doctors in varying specialties. Your best bet is to find hospitals that allow shadoing on weekends or holidays to get "a full day in the life." But worst case you can get some experience after work as you suggested.
2. Find a medically-related (PATIENT CONTACT) volunteer position that you can commit 3-4 hours/wk on a regular basis. Again weekends would probably be easier than trying to cram in time after work. Alternatively you could do ~2 days a month in big chunks (~8 hours per day), but make sure you get some patient exposure. You can aim for 6 months in 2 different settings or the whole deal (up until you submit) at 1 location.
3. Take bio courses fall and spring term in person (look for night classes or "continuing education" programs).
4. Sign up for a January/early spring MCAT that is NOT the new 2015MCAT. You will only have 1 term of bio, but 1 term is better than none. And frankly the 2015MCAT is going to be a nightmare for non-trads. If you do poorly in January you can schedule a retake in May-early June, but beware it will be the 2015MCAT which will be an entirely different beast.
5. Maintain that medically-related volunteering and apply in June -early July to still be early in the cycle.
6. Continue working up until whenever, start medical school August 2016.

1 and 2 will be important in determining whether medicine is the career you want to pursue, and will also give you time at your current job to see if things progress. Moreover they will be important in improving your application and show that you have in fact "tested the waters" and have more than just a naive, idealistic view of medicine. 3 will be a necessary pre-req at nearly every medical school. 4 is more of a recomendation on account of the fact that the new MCAT is supposed to stress concepts of sociology, psychology, and biochem in addition to the laundry list of pre-reqs already needed. You will at least have 1 term of bio under your belt that won't need to be self-taught, but there are far more resources for the current MCAT than the 2015 version. 5 is to show your "comittment" to the career as well as show your humantarianism/altruism and is generally perceived as a necessary checkbox. 5 also is advice to apply early. You may be the best applicant in the world, but if you don't apply early your shooting yourself in the foot before you even start the race.

EDIT: typo

 

[nOchemallday]

6. C: I enjoy interacting with people. I imagine this varies from job to job, but radiology offers perhaps the least amount of patient interaction. As it is now, I interact with about 10 people regularly but basically work alone, and this is almost too lonely for me.

Radiology, Pathology, and Anesthesiology might be good specialties to start with shadowing; but don't be afraid to shadow other specialties as well. Anesthesiology and Surgery still interact with a medical team and patients frequently, but there is less patient contact than some of the more extroverted specialties like family medicine and peds.

 

[Chemmie]

Wow, this forum is great. I think everyone is right who mentioned that I would be rushing it if I apply this cycle. An extra year will give me time to find out if I do indeed want to pursue this path, and it will also give me more time at my current job (maybe I'll like it), which will also give me a financial padding entering med school.

nOchemallday, Thank you for your suggested timeline. It is very helpful (I like check lists). I'm new to the specifics of applying and had no idea that the MCAT was changing. I can actually work four 10-hour days every other week to get Fridays off, which I can use for shadowing/volunteering. 🙂

Would a PhD be a better fit for someone interested more in technology and physiology than in diagnostic process and patient interaction?

- Perhaps, but I'm more interested in the diagnostic aspect and patient interaction. I strongly considered a PhD (freshman-junior years) but have since learned that I don't really enjoy research.

New Question: I looked into "continuing education" courses in my area. The university I graduated from allows one to take courses not leading to a degree, but the bio classes 1) Aren't offered during a time I can take off, and 2) Are >$1,000 each. A local technical community college offers the bio courses plus labs at night and charges <$200 each. My logic tells me to take them from the community college, but I realize there's some stigma associated with this. My top choice school (UNC, in state) doesn't mention anything about not accepting online courses from a university. Would I be better off taking the bio courses + labs online from a university or in person through a community college? Unfortunately I don't think I can manage to take them in person from a university due to the scheduling.

 

[nOchemallday]

New Question: I looked into "continuing education" courses in my area. The university I graduated from allows one to take courses not leading to a degree, but the bio classes 1) Aren't offered during a time I can take off, and 2) Are >$1,000 each. A local technical community college offers the bio courses plus labs at night and charges <$200 each. My logic tells me to take them from the community college, but I realize there's some stigma associated with this. My top choice school (UNC, in state) doesn't mention anything about not accepting online courses from a university. Would I be better off taking the bio courses + labs online from a university or in person through a community college? Unfortunately I don't think I can manage to take them in person from a university due to the scheduling.

My understanding is that CC>Online, especially in the case of labs (honestly I don't even know how that would work). From a quick review of the MSAR it appears that more schools accept CC credit than online credit. Because you're a non-trad, I think you have as good a reason as any to take the coursework at a CC. It's nigh impossible to determine your school list before having an MCAT score - a factor that will invariably decide whether you are competitive for MD vs DO schools, as well as which specific schools (concerning which of those schools accept CC credit). Know however that CC credit will not keep you from pursuing this field.

Another aspect you may wish to consider: You may wish to contact your university's career development/pre-health advising center to see if you are still able to garner information that way. If they will not advise you on the basis that you have already graduated, try contacting your alumni office to see if they have pre-professional advising. Some pre-med advisors are notoriously bad for presenting you with the information you need, but they generally are good at throttling back all of the information to help you process it in a meaningful way instead of hitting you in the face with it all at once. As others have said before me, you may also want to make your way over to the Non-traditional forums to get more advice about how to manage pre-med activities with a full-time job as well as juggling all the other tasks required of pre-medical students.

Foremost, I think it is imperative for you to really consider (especially with first-hand shadowing experience) whether medicine is what you want to do. Also, take everything on this forum with a grain of salt, even my advice. There's no singular route to medicine and SDN is over-represented by over-acheivers.

 

[235009]

To reiterate a few points:
- this isn't a race, take your time to present the absolute best application you possibly can. besides you are an engineer with (i'm supposing) a decently-paying job so it's not like you're a basic science grad who is sitting around doing experiments in a lab for $20k waiting around to go to med school.
- yes, taking individual college classes is expensive but it's important to try and take the remaining classes at an institution that is comparable to your undergrad. night classes are pretty common at some universities that cater to postbaccs. going to a CC isn't the end of the world since it's only one pre-req sequence but probably best to avoid it. definitely avoid online classes.
- while i don't think it's a crime for an engineer to be interested in radiology as it seems some others on here are I do think you need to get some meaningful clinical experience like shadowing a FM, IM, EM or IM subspecialist. While you may end up doing radiology, your third year and intern year will consist almost exclusively of interacting with patients the way the above mentioned practitioners do. Besides shadowing a radiologist will likely be mind-numbingly boring, especially with zero medical knowledge under your belt.
- despite your two less than stellar grades you seem to have a very solid GPA in a rigorous major so don't fret about those two grades
- i think the fear of the new MCAT on SDN is overblown (i mean what isn't overblown on this forum). also it seems like the MCAT was updated to integrate more things that non-trads typically excel more at like psychosocial contexts of health
- the november deadline for applications is meaningless, your goal should be to submit your application within the first month or so of the application opening date (around June 1st)

 

[cn2604]

With regards to the online courses...a lot of four-year universities offer online courses that appear on a transcript just as any other course taken in the classroom would. I think if this is the case, there would be no way for anyone to tell just by looking at your transcript that these courses were taken online and would be fine, especially if you could take them through the same university you graduated from. This is very different from taking them online through the University of Phoenix or something, which wouldn't look very good. So I would look some more into that, as that would probably be the easiest way for you to fit the classes into your work schedule.

As others have mentioned, ignore the November/December app deadlines. Admissions are on a rolling basis, so you want to get your primary app submitted next June and work on secondary apps during July and August to have the best possible advantage.

FWIW, I was also an engineering major in college (bme), and so far I have found medical school to be a lot easier than engineering was. I wish you the best of luck 🙂

 

[Winged Scapula]

Radiology, Pathology, and Anesthesiology might be good specialties to start with shadowing; but don't be afraid to shadow other specialties as well. Anesthesiology and Surgery still interact with a medical team and patients frequently, but there is less patient contact than some of the more extroverted specialties like family medicine and peds.

Surgeons tend to be quite extroverted, more so than many specialties. In addition, surgeons have to see patients in the office as well as the OR so there is a fair bit of patient contact so it's not really a field that draws introverted types who prefer to work alone.

 

[nOchemallday]

Surgeons tend to be quite extroverted, more so than many specialties. In addition, surgeons have to see patients in the office as well as the OR so there is a fair bit of patient contact so it's not really a field that draws introverted types who prefer to work alone.

As it is now, I interact with about 10 people regularly but basically work alone, and this is almost too lonely for me.

Sorry. I was under the impression he wanted to work in a small groups and see familiar faces on a daily basis, not necessarily work completely alone. My vibe from shadowing surgeons was that everyone in the OR was a close-knit group, but maybe this just depends on the type of practice? Regardless, I certainly agree that seeing patients frequently and having a good bedside manner is expected in their specialties.

 

[masaraksh]

Why not bio-medical engineering?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sorry. I was under the impression he wanted to work in a small groups and see familiar faces on a daily basis, not necessarily work completely alone. My vibe from shadowing surgeons was that everyone in the OR was a close-knit group, but maybe this just depends on the type of practice? Regardless, I certainly agree that seeing patients frequently and having a good bedside manner is expected in their specialties.

I'd say that its fairly close knit as it would be with anyone you work with frequently, perhaps more so in academics because you tend to operate only at one hospital and the more senior faculty members would have an assigned team. It doesn't work that way out in PP, where you might have hospital privileges at several facilities and surgery centers, and wouldn't necessarily have the same team every day (or even every case during the same day).

 

[Chemmie]

Wow, thanks for the excellent advice everyone. Just to clarify, I did mean I want more interaction with people, both in small groups and with others.

I am now looking into my school's alumni offerings and also volunteer/shadowing opportunities. There are several major hospitals in my area that offer a very structured volunteer program. As in, you have to interview for it and it takes about 2 months to actually start due to the testing and training. Is this typical, or should I try to find a smaller hospital? I think it would be an amazing experience to volunteer in a larger one to see surgeries and top-notch physicians in action, but perhaps I would get more hands-on experience in a smaller hospital. Or how about a university's hospital? It's a bit farther away, but if it would be significantly better for volunteering, I could do it on the weekends vs. week nights for a regular hospital.

 

[Chemmie]

I just found out that my 3.71 GPA was calculated using the A+ = 4.333 system, so my GPA is actually 3.633. Which one counts? Will they really dismiss the fact that I got an A+ in quantitative chem and some other important classes? 🙁

 

[masaraksh]

I just found out that my 3.71 GPA was calculated using the A+ = 4.333 system, so my GPA is actually 3.633. Which one counts? Will they really dismiss the fact that I got an A+ in quantitative chem and some other important classes? 🙁

Well, it would only be fair to the students who got 99%+ in their classes but the max grade at their Uni was "A".

 

[Chemmie]

Well, it would only be fair to the students who got 99%+ in their classes but the max grade at their Uni was "A".

Fair enough. ^_^

 

[cn2604]

I am now looking into my school's alumni offerings and also volunteer/shadowing opportunities. There are several major hospitals in my area that offer a very structured volunteer program. As in, you have to interview for it and it takes about 2 months to actually start due to the testing and training. Is this typical, or should I try to find a smaller hospital? I think it would be an amazing experience to volunteer in a larger one to see surgeries and top-notch physicians in action, but perhaps I would get more hands-on experience in a smaller hospital. Or how about a university's hospital? It's a bit farther away, but if it would be significantly better for volunteering, I could do it on the weekends vs. week nights for a regular hospital.

That's pretty typical I think. Also, hospital volunteers don't usually get to watch surgeries or shadow doctors. You will most likely be working with the nursing staff and delivering food and blankets to patients, restocking supplies, wheeling patients to different floors. A lot of hospitals don't allow shadowing because of HIPAA concerns. I had a lot better luck contacting private practice doctors for shadowing opportunities. Your volunteer work doesn't have to be in a patient/hospital setting, so you could look into volunteering at nursing homes, habitat for humanity, or whatever else you find interesting.

 

[newdoc2013]

I'm a BME starting Radiology residency in a few days. There are times I wish I stuck with engineering but overall I'm content with pursuing medicine/Radiology. Feel free to ask specific questions.

 

[gabyoh23]

@Chemmie

I work at a radiology practice, and while radiology can be interesting, and I really respect how much radiologists know about the human body, it can get pretty dull, especially at night (that's why I'm posting at 4:45am 😛). There's not much shadowing to be done since they're often concentrating on dictating their findings, and there's obviously zero patient contact. However, I've learned a ton without even actively trying to. It's really easy to pick up things just from hearing the rads dictate, but I do have a bio background as well as previous clinical experience, so it might be different for you.

From your description, it sounds like you would be more interested in interventional radiology than just plain radiology. As I understand it, those kinds of rads are in the hospitals actually doing procedures (using imaging technology to perform minimally invasive procedures), so if you're set on shadowing a radiologist, I would look for an interventional radiologist.

It's not bad to have an early interest in something, but I think you definitely need that all important patient contact - it really makes or breaks a person's resolve to become a doctor.

 

[DermViser]

Thank you very much for your specific answers. They are very helpful. Is it really bad to go into medical school knowing what specialty one wants to be? I would have thought it would be helpful to have an idea what I want to do after medical school but still keep an open mind in case something else interests me more.

If you're married to that specialty, yes.