ER Reimbursement in the near future

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EctopicFetus

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I know we have other threads on this but I wanted to make sure I could wrap my mind around this.

Assuming Obamacare doesnt get tossed by the SCOTUS....

1) 30 million more insured and estimates are 1/2 medicaid and 1/2 private insurance (of people who currently dont have ANY insurance).

2) Based on estimates, common sense and experience in Massachusetts ED visits will go up.

3) Nationally 15% of ED visits are by "self pay" patients. This number should go down based on #1.

4) Obamacare limits cuts to physicians and hospitals by the IPAB to no more than 2% per yr.

So the worry on reimbursement is that employers will kick their employees off their insurance and they will go on medicaid and when those people use the ED our reimbursement overall will go down?

Everyone I speak with talks about gloom and doom but outside of what i listed below (which is a huge deal and a huge unknown) things look up?

Please help me with this..
 
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From your article...

Total visits increased from 424,878 in 2006 to 442,102 in 2008.

We can tease out what we want from the data low acuity or not.. Thats someones opinion.

Dont forget this...

http://www.boston.com/news/health/a...insurance_premiums_highest_in_country/?page=2

Also.. just a point..

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?cat=8&ind=388

In 2005Mass per capita had the ED visits were 446/1000 people in2007 it was 494/1000 then in 2009 in dropped a bit to 473.

Nationally it went from 387 to 401 or an increase of 14 between 2005 and 2007. Massachussetts uses more significantly more ED care than the national avg and continues to do so.
 
While we are at it.. Premiums have soared in Mass too and it has had crazy cost overruns. Boston Medical Center sued the state even though the idiotically supported this to begin with.

The problem with the NEJM article is it picks an arbitrary time to start to prove a convenient point. Visits are up a bunch per your 1st article.
 
Interesting enough, my chairman just had a huge meeting with medicaid people and their talk revolved around reimbursements.

I asked him where the thought our reimbursement would be in the future - his answer was it'll probably remain the same at the very least.
 
sure obamacare makes medicaid pay at least as much as medicare. in some places like michigsn it is like 70%. just another reason the states are pissed.
 
I know we have other threads on this but I wanted to make sure I could wrap my mind around this.

Assuming Obamacare doesnt get tossed by the SCOTUS....

1) 30 million more insured and estimates are 1/2 medicaid and 1/2 private insurance (of people who currently dont have ANY insurance).
.

You are forgetting that many employers have already stated that they will drop private insurance for their employees (the penalty is cheaper than providing insurance) which means that those people who had higher-paying insurance will go on Medicaid. The actual number is unknowable, but predictions are that as many as 15 million Americans will lose their employer-sponsored insurance and be switched to Medicaid. That would be a huge loss for us.

At best I think Obamacare will be revenue neutral for us in the near future.
 
1. What is IPAB? IPAB is to be composed of 15 health care "experts" including physicians and "other providers", those "with expertise in health finance and economics… health facility management, health plans (insurance companies)"…consumer advocates, etc. Practicing physicians are not allowed to serve on IPAB. Health care providers cannot constitute a majority of IPAB.

2. How does this all work? IPAB's only function is to keep Medicare spending growth below an artificial rate (change in GDP + 1%). If Medicare spending exceeds this target, IPAB is instructed to propose cuts to reduce spending without affecting quality of care or coverage (benefits) for Medicare patients.

3. What can and can't IPAB do? By law, IPAB is not allowed to "ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums, increase Medicare beneficiary cost-sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and copayments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria." IPAB also cannot reduce reimbursement to Medicare Part A (hospitals and nursing homes) until after 2020.

4. What exactly will IPAB do? When IPAB is asked to reduce Medicare costs without reducing benefits, increasing premiums, or making reimbursement cuts to hospitals or nursing homes, it seems the only option left will be to cut physician reimbursement. Unless Congress provides for an equal amount of cuts elsewhere in the budget, or vetoes the IPAB plan with a supermajority (60 votes in the Senate), IPAB's recommendations will become law.

5. How does this affect our patients? Cutting reimbursement to physicians will lead to fewer physicians accepting Medicare patients, and thus decreased access to health care. This will lead to more visits to emergency departments which will exacerbate the crowding plaguing many of our EDs. According to a recent study, the number of physicians who no longer accept Medicare patients increased from 4.5% to 7.1% over just 3 years (2005-2008)[ii] and many other physicians no longer accept new Medicare patients. The bottom line: Cutting physician reimbursement hurts patients' ability to access quality health care.

6. How does this affect emergency physicians? Unlike other physicians, who may stop accepting Medicare patients and thus stop participating in the Medicare program, emergency physicians are obligated to stabilize and treat all patients (under the EMTALA law of 1986) with no promise of fair reimbursement. When other primary care and specialty physicians stop accepting Medicare patients, those patients will arrive in the ED with nowhere else to turn. Our EDs will become overcrowded, and likely more dangerous, as studies have shown that crowding increases mortality[1]. Both patients and physicians will lose. Any harm done by IPAB will only exacerbate the payment cuts and freezes from the flawed SGR formula that already underpays physicians, with a 29.5% cut in Medicare reimbursement expected on January 1, 2012. The safety net of our health care system will become further strained, emergency physicians will be severely underpaid, access to health care will diminish, and quality of care will suffer.

7. The politics behind it: There is bipartisan support for repealing the IPAB. As of September 21, 2011, 194 Republican and 11 Democrat members of the House of Representatives support repealing IPAB; 32 Senators (all Republicans) have cosponsored a similar bill in the Senate.

8. Can't we just wait until IPAB starts to see what happens? Once IPAB reduces physician reimbursements, by law, reversing those cuts will require making equal cuts elsewhere in the federal budget to offset the money owed to physicians. This situation would be even more taxing than our constant efforts to lobby Congress to retroactively fix the flawed SGR reimbursement formula.

9. Other problems with IPAB: The majority of IPAB members cannot be health care providers. This requirement is illogical. Who is in a better position to evaluate medical and financial implications to patients and physicians better than the physicians who are in the trenches?

10. Why shouldn't Medicare spending increase? This year marks the beginning of Medicare eligibility for 78 million baby boomers. Given that the number of people Medicare will cover over the next 10+ years will skyrocket and health care costs will naturally and expectedly increase, placing an artificial limit on Medicare spending (as IPAB does) is inconsistent with the demographical changes and needs of our society.

11. No checks & balances. The entire government is designed to function in a system of checks and balances to ensure accountability. IPAB has no checks or balances. There is no real accountability to the actions of these unelected IPAB bureaucrats. Allowing this IPAB board to rule is tantamount to Congress abdicating its powers and responsibilities to the Executive branch (as it is the President who appoints these members). Furthermore, members could theoretically be appointed during a recess, bypassing the Senate confirmation process.

12. Solution: ACEP and other medical organizations oppose the creation of IPAB. Call or email your member of Congress asking them to repeal the IPAB. Ask members of Congress to cosponsor HR 452 and Senators to cosponsor SB 668.


http://www.emra.org/emra_articles.aspx?id=43697

More visits, less reimbursement, more medicaid doesn't exactly equal winning.
 
Even if initial reimbursement goes up initially, government will eventually get involved and will ratchet down reimbursement and find ways to force costs down.

Income tax was initially 3% and just on the most wealthy americans. What is it today?

The question isn't, "What will our wages do in the next couple of years?" The question you should be asking is "What will our wage be in a decade or two if the government sets our wages, influenced by such groups as the Occupy Wall Street Movement?"
 
Even if initial reimbursement goes up initially, government will eventually get involved and will ratchet down reimbursement and find ways to force costs down.

This.

As an example of finding other ways to cut reimbursement without actually cutting it CMS and the OIG are projecting that they'll demand repayment of 30 billion this year based on going back into charts and not paying for things based on insufficient documentation. If you have been seeing charts coming back from med records with assinine requests for "additional documentation to justify test X" like I have that's part of it.

There is no extra money out there. There is no way we will be allowed to come out of this better or even the same as we went in. And remember that when they're done cutting us the IRS will come 'round because we're that evil 2% that haven't been paying "our fair share."
 
This.

As an example of finding other ways to cut reimbursement without actually cutting it CMS and the OIG are projecting that they'll demand repayment of 30 billion this year based on going back into charts and not paying for things based on insufficient documentation. If you have been seeing charts coming back from med records with assinine requests for "additional documentation to justify test X" like I have that's part of it.

There is no extra money out there. There is no way we will be allowed to come out of this better or even the same as we went in. And remember that when they're done cutting us the IRS will come 'round because we're that evil 2% that haven't been paying "our fair share."

The truth is that America is broke, and we don't have money to pay for the existing old people. Those costs are going to continue to go up as the population ages. It's estimated that by 2050, the entire revenue of the Federal government will go to food, housing, retirement, and healthcare for the elderly.

The stark fact is that there are only a few ways to control costs:

1. Ration care at the government level
2. Make seniors pay more out of pocket
3. Cut some seniors off of Medicare (the rich ones)
4. Cut reimbursement to hospitals and doctors.

Since seniors vote in record numbers, the AARP will not allow #'s 1 to 3 to happen. That leaves #4 as the only tool whereby government can cut funding.

It's true that currently doctors can refuse to accept Medicare (except us), however I can envision a future where participation in Medicare is a mandatory part of state licensure.
 
You are forgetting that many employers have already stated that they will drop private insurance for their employees (the penalty is cheaper than providing insurance) which means that those people who had higher-paying insurance will go on Medicaid. The actual number is unknowable, but predictions are that as many as 15 million Americans will lose their employer-sponsored insurance and be switched to Medicaid. That would be a huge loss for us.

At best I think Obamacare will be revenue neutral for us in the near future.

Nope.. Didnt forget.. here is my quote from above..

So the worry on reimbursement is that employers will kick their employees off their insurance and they will go on medicaid and when those people use the ED our reimbursement overall will go down?
 
The truth is that America is broke, and we don't have money to pay for the existing old people. Those costs are going to continue to go up as the population ages. It's estimated that by 2050, the entire revenue of the Federal government will go to food, housing, retirement, and healthcare for the elderly.

The stark fact is that there are only a few ways to control costs:

1. Ration care at the government level
2. Make seniors pay more out of pocket
3. Cut some seniors off of Medicare (the rich ones)
4. Cut reimbursement to hospitals and doctors.

Since seniors vote in record numbers, the AARP will not allow #'s 1 to 3 to happen. That leaves #4 as the only tool whereby government can cut funding.

It's true that currently doctors can refuse to accept Medicare (except us), however I can envision a future where participation in Medicare is a mandatory part of state licensure.

We need #1. I agree 2&3 are out of the question. #4 is likely to happen but looks like it will happen very very slowly. Keep in mind if they cut physicians reimbursement those patients wont have anywhere to go. We have a huge physician shortage and will have one going into the near future.

From a strictly financial POV hire more midlevels and profit off them without having to do too much more work.

I too believe incomes will go down but I am starting to believe this is only due to everyone else saying so. I think more accurately we will see more patients (aka work harder) for the same amount of money. Where I work we have room to absorb that volume bump without increasing our coverage. If other folks are working where there is a 1-2 hour wait all the time I can see there is no option to increase physician workload.

If we saw a 5% cut to our reimbursement over the next 10 years (adjusted for inflation) would that be a relief to people? For the guys on here who are attendings would you care to give a % guess on how much money you are talking about? Next yr? next 5 years? Next 10?
 
Jack,

Unsure where u r in your training Attending, resident student etc...

I cant tell you how much I love what hospice should do. Sadly, I have seen these people come to the ER when they decompensate. We run our tests (and their bills) and they want everything done. The cost of intubation. blood, expensive meds etc all gets thrown into that.

Again, I am 100% for rationing. I think the answer (which I dont believe is likely in this political environment) is a spending max either per couple for medicare or per person. This would lead to people asking what their drugs cost. Bactrim $4 Clinda $50. Keflex $4 Some quinolones >$70
 
If we saw a 5% cut to our reimbursement over the next 10 years (adjusted for inflation) would that be a relief to people? For the guys on here who are attendings would you care to give a % guess on how much money you are talking about? Next yr? next 5 years? Next 10?

Cutting doctor's pay won't bring any real relief to the system. Our percentage of the overall costs are too small. The reason to cut doctor's pay is the same as the reason to even more disproportionatley tax the upper middle class, fostering class envy and revenge gets votes and makes people at the low end feel better about having less.

I think we will see things static initially, possibly even a small bump from the increased number of insured. This will be less than 5% and will be short lived, on the order of 12 to 24 months. We will then see more cuts and even more aggressive tactics by CMS/OIG and these will wear down incomes for the next ~14 years (Obama's second term, 8 years of whoever is next and at least 2 years of who ever is after that). I predict we will see declines of 25 to 30% compared to current levels.
 
Jack,

Unsure where u r in your training Attending, resident student etc...

I cant tell you how much I love what hospice should do. Sadly, I have seen these people come to the ER when they decompensate. We run our tests (and their bills) and they want everything done. The cost of intubation. blood, expensive meds etc all gets thrown into that.

Again, I am 100% for rationing. I think the answer (which I dont believe is likely in this political environment) is a spending max either per couple for medicare or per person. This would lead to people asking what their drugs cost. Bactrim $4 Clinda $50. Keflex $4 Some quinolones >$70

Medical student.

I agree with your agrument.

The opposite would be no rationing, which would mean we can spend unlimited amounts of money on the sickest patients and yield little results. The article I posted above is excellent although very long.
 
Medical student.

I agree with your agrument.

The opposite would be no rationing, which would mean we can spend unlimited amounts of money on the sickest patients and yield little results. The article I posted above is excellent although very long.

We do that right now and it's bankrupting us.

I'm not for government-run healthcare or single payor. These are realities and not going away any time soon. I think if the taxpayers are footing the bill for your care, then they get some say in how much is spent on you and how.
 
EDs are at max capacity already. There may be more disgruntled people waiting longer in waiting rooms, but visits can't go up.

I totally agree. The waiting rooms everywhere are mostly full already.

If it ever went down, you'd see a mass exodus from the specialty.

I predict this will be huge. People (policy-makers) don't understand the absolute misery caused by shiftwork and night shifts. The money is the only thing keeping ERs halfway staffed currently.

Stop asking politicians to fix anything, including healthcare, because they always make things worse.

Very true.

Socialized medicine will destroy any incentive do do anything other than cushy, low stress work.

The people will rue the day they demanded socialized healthcare.

So, how do you turn all the doom and gloom into a positive?

Find 9-5 work
Don't work nights, weekend or holidays
Do elective procedures
Sub-specialize so you can get paid more for less headache
Take lots of vacation

This was a little weird for me. What is the answer to fix emergency medicine? Go online and encourage your former colleagues to follow your lead and abandon the specialty. Yes, that is going to make things better.
 
ED visits will NOT go up. EDs are at max capacity already. There may be more disgruntled people waiting longer in waiting rooms, but visits can't go up.
Disagree. Capacity is there. More EDs are being built, existing ones are expanding. If pts are paying they will find a way to push them through the system. I know where I work we have plenty of additional capacity
There will be more corporate and government meddling, such as ridiculous JAHCO requirements, Press-Gainey surveys, must-greet-every-patient in less than "X" minutes or you'll lose your contract type stuff. This is a certainty

Physician pay will go down, or at best stay flat. ED physician pay will NOT go up as a result of Obamacare. If it ever went down, you'd see a mass exodus from the specialty. I predict it will stay flat (rise no greater than inflation). There will be a greater proportion of patients with terrible reimbursing government insurance that will displace patients who actually have good private insurance. This is where lots of ED physicians falsely got seduced by the prospect of Obamacare, but will be sorely disappointed. In some instances, you can collect more from patients without insurance by sending them a bill for the full charge, than you can from Government insurance which pays pennies on the dollar! Obamacare insurance will be no different.

An old timer recently told me: "When I was in training I was told the golden age of medicine had passed, which put me in the silver age of medicine. You started out in the bronze age of medicine.". My response was, "So you're saying that were coming into the 'stone age' of medicine?". He laughed and said, "You got it!"


So, how do you turn all the doom and gloom into a positive?

Find 9-5 work
Don't work nights, weekend or holidays
Do elective procedures
Sub-specialize so you can get paid more for less headache
Take lots of vacation
Agreed. but in EM this is an impossibility. Some of this is possible but much of it is not.
Stop asking politicians to fix anything, including healthcare, because they always make things worse.

Socialized medicine will destroy any incentive do do anything other than cushy, low stress work.

The dinosaurs that adapt will survive while the rest will go extinct.
Yes. you feel the future is grim, things dont quite add up that way in my opinion. I hope im right.
 
I don't feel the future is grim. I think the future is bright.

The key is to adapt to the coming changes. Change is hard, but adapting and evolving has its rewards. I think it makes sense to plan for the worst, and if it comes, you're ready. If it doesn't your even that farther ahead.

Why would you peddle this feelgood nonsense? The future is bleak, and we'll be lucky if we can continue practicing.

My evidence for this as follows:

- The country is bankrupt. There is no money for anything, much less to pay us one dime more.
- There is more government control over what we order, how we practice and how much we make
- Press Ganey is becoming more ubiquitous and our salaries will increasingly be tied to this complete B.S.
- Our payor mix is worsening with more Medicaid and less private insurance
- Medical malpractice shows no sign of weakening.
 
LOL, this is why I love SDN:

I and others trade back and forth with grim predictions of the future of medicine. I get criticized for be too negative. As a response, I write a post looking at the bright side of things, that is point out the silver lining in the cloud, so to speak and you just NUKE the thread with that one, leaving only scorched earth and no chance for making lemons out of lemonade. I have to say, I love it.

Go Nuclear or go home!
 
All worrisome stuff. I just made partner and my income is coming up. Hope this doesnt totally blow up my long term plan. I have cushion but otherwise ill be working until im 90 just to pay back my loans. Perhaps thats the plan they had all along?

They would be wise to get these "savings" from the 60+ billion per yr in fraud. For those counting thats 600 billion which would pay for a lot of ER visits and essentially save much of the system.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/161/medical-fraud

Keep in mind that $60 billion is 1/2 of what they spend to compensate physicians per yr.

For those interested in this topic there was a great 60 minutes you can find on youtube in parts as well. If it wasnt so sad it would be hilarious. Definitely worth a view.
 
I don't feel the future is grim. I think the future is bright.

The key is to adapt to the coming changes. Change is hard, but adapting and evolving has its rewards. I think it makes sense to plan for the worst, and if it comes, you're ready. If it doesn't your even that farther ahead.

Why would you peddle this feelgood nonsense? The future is bleak, and we'll be lucky if we can continue practicing.

My evidence for this as follows:

- The country is bankrupt. There is no money for anything, much less to pay us one dime more.
- There is more government control over what we order, how we practice and how much we make
- Press Ganey is becoming more ubiquitous and our salaries will increasingly be tied to this complete B.S.
- Our payor mix is worsening with more Medicaid and less private insurance
- Medical malpractice shows no sign of weakening.

LOL, this is why I love SDN:

I and others trade back and forth with grim predictions of the future of medicine. I get criticized for be too negative. As a response, I write a post looking at the bright side of things, that is point out the silver lining in the cloud, so to speak and you just NUKE the thread with that one, leaving only scorched earth and no chance for making lemons out of lemonade. I have to say, I love it.

Go Nuclear or go home!

Love it. With the Strangelove avatar. Classic.

You guys are freaking hilarious :laugh:!

I damn near crapped myself with this mental image of Slim Pickens riding an A bomb onto the next ACEP SA.
 
Lol seriously, I need to dust off blogging for dummies.
 
I wanted to highlight a thread that is going on in the Pre-Med Forms: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=871408

This dude is claiming 300-400k salaries for newly minted EPs (don't know the location) and the pre-meds are soaking it all in.

Now, is this guy out there or is he somewhat on the mark. Finally, are those salaries in EM sustainable long term?
 
I wanted to highlight a thread that is going on in the Pre-Med Forms: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=871408

This dude is claiming 300-400k salaries for newly minted EPs (don't know the location) and the pre-meds are soaking it all in.

Now, is this guy out there or is he somewhat on the mark. Finally, are those salaries in EM sustainable long term?

Thats top 25% according to the MGMA 2010 survey

$280,260 Mean

$225,028 25%
$262,475 Median
$332,501 75%
$398,497 90%


But I would assume maybe someone right out residency would work more hours bc they are use to working more and have less family commitments, and maybe make more?
 
I wanted to highlight a thread that is going on in the Pre-Med Forms: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=871408

This dude is claiming 300-400k salaries for newly minted EPs (don't know the location) and the pre-meds are soaking it all in.

Now, is this guy out there or is he somewhat on the mark. Finally, are those salaries in EM sustainable long term?

Not out there at all, one of our third years just signed for 350K, although the job is single coverage in the middle of nowhere. The idea I have this early in the game (intern) is that if geography is no issue to you then there are definitely jobs out there that pay well over 300 and close to 400.

As far as long term sustainability who knows, just look at the earlier posts on this thread and you'll see the variety of opinions from the older attendings.
 
Not out there at all, one of our third years just signed for 350K, although the job is single coverage in the middle of nowhere. The idea I have this early in the game (intern) is that if geography is no issue to you then there are definitely jobs out there that pay well over 300 and close to 400.

As far as long term sustainability who knows, just look at the earlier posts on this thread and you'll see the variety of opinions from the older attendings.

What do you classify as the middle of nowhere (i.e. town size)?

With mandated insurance, where do you think ppl will take their health concerns...to the local FP or the ED? I can't help but think in America there is more of a desire for quick fix medicine than long term physical well being when compared to other countries, meaning increased traffic to EDs (especially in the inner city).
 
In phoenix you can get a job fresh out making $200+/hr

So if you work 125 hours a month you are right at 300k. Most new docs work in the 140 range so it is totally doable.
 
What do you classify as the middle of nowhere (i.e. town size)?

With mandated insurance, where do you think ppl will take their health concerns...to the local FP or the ED? I can't help but think in America there is more of a desire for quick fix medicine than long term physical well being when compared to other countries, meaning increased traffic to EDs (especially in the inner city).

As far as I know it is a small town in PA, I don't know the population numbers.

I believe that in the future what you will have is urgent care centers staffed mostly by midlevels making up the majority of "primary care", with anything they can't handle being sent to the ED. It already works that way I just think that urgent care will get more and more popular as time passes, because as you said, people want that "quick fix".

As far as what that will do to our EP salaries i'm really not sure. The fact is that the people with insurance that come in with crappy complaints, the ones that don't belong in the ED in the first place, are the ones that pay the bills. If we loose that segment from the EDs then I only see our salaries going down.
 
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EM Salary follows the same rules as any other market-based job. If you want a higher salary, generally you have to work in less desirable areas where there is less competition. Accordingly jobs in Austin and San Diego pay significantly less because many people want to move there and groups don't have to pay as much to hire warm bodies.
 
I wanted to highlight a thread that is going on in the Pre-Med Forms: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=871408

This dude is claiming 300-400k salaries for newly minted EPs (don't know the location) and the pre-meds are soaking it all in.

Now, is this guy out there or is he somewhat on the mark. Finally, are those salaries in EM sustainable long term?

Depends on geography, payer mix, and desirability of the area.
1. For example there are many in a suburb outside of Chicago where you can break 300-310K provided you work 40h a week. This is not the middle of nowhere.
2. Sometimes, the more remote you are, there isn't the patient volume to support a large income unless they have a subsidy from the hospital itself.
3. If you go into the city or somewhere very desirable, the payer mix usually is not the best coupled with the competition with other EM docs - your pay will go down. For example, a rough average for Chicago itself is approx 260K per year at full 40h/wk.
 
Depends on geography, payer mix, and desirability of the area.
1. For example there are many in a suburb outside of Chicago where you can break 300-310K provided you work 40h a week. This is not the middle of nowhere.
2. Sometimes, the more remote you are, there isn't the patient volume to support a large income unless they have a subsidy from the hospital itself.
3. If you go into the city or somewhere very desirable, the payer mix usually is not the best coupled with the competition with other EM docs - your pay will go down. For example, a rough average for Chicago itself is approx 260K per year at full 40h/wk.

Lets talk in $/hr. Simply put very few people in EM work 40 clinical hours per week. I am not seeing a ton of people working 2000+ hours per yr. I would say most do 1400-1800.

Simply put if you want to make $300k just look a the throw away journals. Those jobs are everywhere but like Veers said it is tough to get this and live in a very desireable location. Here in the Phx area I consider it a fairly desirable area to live and numerous groups in town are making over 300. That being said this place has a lot of true democratic groups (not Emcare/Teamhealth/EMP/CEP) and that helps as no one skims your money. I think a partner in a decent group should be making 220-240/hr here. I also know of a few groups in town that do better than that.

EM Docs here do well but thats because there arent a ton of docs and most places are fairly busy and thats in spite of 22% uninsured (one of the highest in the country in this state). Our medicaid pays ~105% of medicare which helps as well when compared to places where that number is under 70%.
 
Also FWIW there was a job outside of minneapolis (30 mins out) that offered a job making $250/hr starting out with benefits. you could work 36 hours per week take 10 weeks vacation and make $378k. FWIW I only know about the job above cause I have a friend up there. Now this isnt San Diego but if you are looking to make cash it is there. The problem with pre-meds and even some med students is they think they can work 50 hrs/week and survive. You might be able to do so for a short period but thats gonna lead to burnout, lawsuits and tremendous job dissatisfaction.
 
We do well over 2000h/year in our residency, so I think initially when you are fresh out it would be feasible to work in that range since you would be used to those hours anyway. I do agree that long term it is not a sustainable situation, however it may be possible to do it to save money for the first couple of years and pay back loans/buy house/buy wife/etc.
 
What do you think the tiring aspect is? The swing shift nature, the intensity of the hours, or both?
 
We do well over 2000h/year in our residency, so I think initially when you are fresh out it would be feasible to work in that range since you would be used to those hours anyway. I do agree that long term it is not a sustainable situation, however it may be possible to do it to save money for the first couple of years and pay back loans/buy house/buy wife/etc.

I'll definitely be putting in double hours for this 🙂
 
We do well over 2000h/year in our residency, so I think initially when you are fresh out it would be feasible to work in that range since you would be used to those hours anyway. I do agree that long term it is not a sustainable situation, however it may be possible to do it to save money for the first couple of years and pay back loans/buy house/buy wife/etc.

Yes. in residency but the stresses are different. Simply put my 1st 12 months out I worked over 2000, my second year I did right at that number. This year my plan is more in the 1800-1900 hour range. All I can tell you is when you work that much you are gonna get grumpy. Your performance will be affected.

Simply the stresses and challenges of residency are much different than in a community ED. There is a reason ED docs dont work 2000 hours per yr and it isnt becuase they are all rich.

Regarding the 3 choices
The old standard:
1. Money
2. Location
3. Lifestyle

Pick two.

There are a few choice jobs that fulfill this. Of course "location" is in the eye of the beholder.
 
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