euthanasia question

[dogsarecool]

Can vets who own their own practices refuse to use euthanasia?

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[jmcgintee]

are you talking about convenience euths or just euthanasia in general?

I don't really know the answer to your question but as a vet I really feel you need to be ok with euthanasia. Your post didn't state your opinion toward it so I won't assume you are against it though.

 

[Smileystar5]

I think as a private practice you can refuse to perform an service of your choice. The veterinarian I work for refuses to clip ears, doc tails/dewclaws or to see pit bulls or akitas. These guidelines are based solely on his discretion and expertise. Whether it's a good business practice is another question entirely. Unfortunately, it would be really difficult to run a no euthanasia clinic b/c this is some families' only option when treatments become expensive or watching their pet decline becomes too painful. (This is not in any way meant to imply that these are not good decisions... I've had to make them myself).

 

[Laur7114]

ugh. way off topic, but i'm disgusted to find out there are actually veterinarians that would refuse to see a certain breed of dog. I've never heard of this before.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Can vets who own their own practices refuse to use euthanasia?

As those above have said, one could do it, but one would likely not stay in business for long. Euthanasia has become a service that is expected of a vet, and most customers would likely treat a non-euthanizing vet the same way they might one who refuses to spay or neuter - as an inconvenient oddity.

 

[sumstorm]

Ummm.... it MAY be something that varies from state to state. If you had an existing client whose animal was badly injured (irreparably) or in late stages of disease it could be a huge issue to refuse euthanasia. And what alternative would you offer? pain med till natural death? Also, what about unexpected onset of unretractable aggression?

However, if your question is about convenince euth, many vets refuse this. And many won't euth pets on first visit or pets without existing dr-patient relationship.

 

[jmcgintee]

Ummm.... it MAY be something that varies from state to state. If you had an existing client whose animal was badly injured (irreparably) or in late stages of disease it could be a huge issue to refuse euthanasia. And what alternative would you offer? pain med till natural death? Also, what about unexpected onset of unretractable aggression?

However, if your question is about convenince euth, many vets refuse this. And many won't euth pets on first visit or pets without existing dr-patient relationship.

Well said! A vet absolutely NEEDS to be comfortable with euthanasia for the above mentioned reasons. I had an interview question about this. More often than not, euthanasia is the most humane thing that can be done for an animal. However, convenience euths don't seem right to me when there are other options

 

[Electrophile]

ugh. way off topic, but i'm disgusted to find out there are actually veterinarians that would refuse to see a certain breed of dog. I've never heard of this before.

I agree. 😡 I don't think they'd let me opt out of our neurology rotation because it's 90% dachshunds. 😛

 

[Tiktaalik]

Ummm.... it MAY be something that varies from state to state. If you had an existing client whose animal was badly injured (irreparably) or in late stages of disease it could be a huge issue to refuse euthanasia. And what alternative would you offer? pain med till natural death? Also, what about unexpected onset of unretractable aggression?

However, if your question is about convenince euth, many vets refuse this. And many won't euth pets on first visit or pets without existing dr-patient relationship.

Good call, I didn't think of an emergency-type situation. In that case, do you think the vet's inaction might be considered a form of (legally defined) cruelty? I'm unsure.

Edit:

I agree. 😡 I don't think they'd let me opt out of our neurology rotation because it's 90% dachshunds. 😛

D:
Dachshunds are wonderful! Don't say such wicked things!
😛

 

[cowgirla]

I agree. 😡 I don't think they'd let me opt out of our neurology rotation because it's 90% dachshunds. 😛

Can I opt out of seeing pugs?? If I never have to put a pug's eye back into place, or see a pug with its eye hanging out, that would be awesome.

I don't like pugs. Or their problems. Or they way they turn blue before you even touch them. Or their owners. 🙂

But that's totally off topic.

 

[DVMDream]

Can I opt out of seeing pugs?? If I never have to put a pug's eye back into place, or see a pug with its eye hanging out, that would be awesome.

I don't like pugs. Or their problems. Or they way they turn blue before you even touch them. Or their owners. 🙂

But that's totally off topic.

I have seen a pug with its eye popped out and watched the surgery...it is a really cool surgery..the eye looks like it gets sucked right back in (to me it does); if you get the opportunity to see one definitely watch!

I also do not like pugs..their eyes...or breathing issues.

 

[cowgirla]

I have seen a pug with its eye popped out and watched the surgery...it is a really cool surgery..the eye looks like it gets sucked right back in (to me it does); if you get the opportunity to see one definitely watch!

I also do not like pugs..their eyes...or breathing issues.

Yes, I've seen and assisted for way more than I care to count. It gets old, real quick!

 

[Electrophile]

D:
Dachshunds are wonderful! Don't say such wicked things!
😛

You may not say that about them when you have a decent number of them as patients, particularly the back dogs in the ICU or in the neurology/surgery wards at our vet school. I'll take a pit bull or Rottweiler over a landshark dachshund any day of the week. They don't typically make friendly patients, no matter how sweet they are at home. Kind of like horses and cats. I love horses and I like some cats, but they don't make very good patients typically.

That being said, I wouldn't really exclude doxies from my future practice.

 

[Tiktaalik]

You may not say that about them when you have a decent number of them as patients, particularly the back dogs in the ICU or in the neurology/surgery wards at our vet school. I'll take a pit bull or Rottweiler over a landshark dachshund any day of the week. They don't typically make friendly patients, no matter how sweet they are at home. Kind of like horses and cats. I love horses and I like some cats, but they don't make very good patients typically.

That being said, I wouldn't really exclude doxies from my future practice.

I was only kidding - I had to have my last dachshund euthanized for agression. As much as I love 'em, I know it's a breed problem – Sweet as can be around family, murderous around strangers.

 

[DVMDream]

Yes, I've seen and assisted for way more than I care to count. It gets old, real quick!

Wow. I need some sleep. I definitely read your first post as "I have never seen a pug with its eye popped out...instead of as "If I never have to see another..." Anyway, I agree it does get old real quick. Also, I can not stand to hold onto any dog with those types of eyes because their eyes get huge and I am afraid they will pop out it is very annoying.

 

[cowgirla]

Wow. I need some sleep. I definitely read your first post as "I have never seen a pug with its eye popped out...instead of as "If I never have to see another..." Anyway, I agree it does get old real quick. Also, I can not stand to hold onto any dog with those types of eyes because their eyes get huge and I am afraid they will pop out it is very annoying.

I think I may have left out the word "another."

I can see where you got that, haha. It's been a long day here too...

 

[HopefulAg]

Instead of refusing individual breeds, I'd rather spend my time going around smacking all the owners that insist upon breeding dogs with such obvious defects. A lot more fun and good stress relief.

 

[eventualeventer]

You may not say that about them when you have a decent number of them as patients, particularly the back dogs in the ICU or in the neurology/surgery wards at our vet school. I'll take a pit bull or Rottweiler over a landshark dachshund any day of the week. They don't typically make friendly patients, no matter how sweet they are at home. Kind of like horses and cats. I love horses and I like some cats, but they don't make very good patients typically.

That being said, I wouldn't really exclude doxies from my future practice.

😕 Could you elaborate? Having worked with quite a few hospitalized horses, my experience has been that a lot of them, while perhaps a bit nervous at first, soon decide that the hospital is just another barn and they are staying in just another stall. Sure, as with dogs, there are individual variations: there are the homicidal horses who don't want to be messed with and the neurotic ones that circle endlessly, but the average adult* patient is reasonably laid back and straightforward to restrain for things like catheter placement, messing with fluid lines, oral meds, etc. All things considered, a lot of them put up with a lot of crap with minimal complaint -- indwelling nasogastric tubes, frequent blood draws, nasty tasting medicines, being confined to a stall 24 hours a day. You have to be patient and efficient at what you are doing, but that's true for any species, is it not? Maybe I haven't spent enough time working with dogs to make a comparison.

*Foals are a whole different ball of wax, having not yet learned to be civilized for even being caught yet being big enough to run and buck from day one.

 

[PrimalMU]

I also do not like pugs..their eyes...or breathing issues.

I didn't used to, until I dated a girl with a pug and a pug/chihuahua mix. They were great (although mischievous) dogs. They might be the exception, though, because I still don't enjoy seeing most pugs. God do they smell! Plus, there's the aforementioned eye problems and the fact they get blue before you touch them.

 

[Angelus9]

Stalls are stalls, barns are barns. Most horses have lived in a number of different barns and different stalls over the course of their lives, so the basics are familiar: they're in a stall. They know this. They're in a barn. They know this. Also, by training horses are "interfered with" on a daily basis: bridles, bits, saddles, wraps, grooming, sheath cleaning, harness, etc., etc. etc. Lots of people have handled them, touched them, done things with/to them, day in and day out, their entire lives.

But for the average dog, it's the opposite. They aren't handled and touched by anyone other than their people, and even that, they're not ever "restrained." And a veterinary office is a FAR different and strange place for the average dog than its home. Esp. for a spoiled, untrained dog. Most of the average pet owners I know - their dogs never leave the property. Their owners don't even brush them. Of course I'm not talking about people who train or compete or do other things with their dogs; just about the avg. suburbanite with a dog.

 

[Electrophile]

😕 Could you elaborate? Having worked with quite a few hospitalized horses, my experience has been that a lot of them, while perhaps a bit nervous at first, soon decide that the hospital is just another barn and they are staying in just another stall. Sure, as with dogs, there are individual variations: there are the homicidal horses who don't want to be messed with and the neurotic ones that circle endlessly, but the average adult* patient is reasonably laid back and straightforward to restrain for things like catheter placement, messing with fluid lines, oral meds, etc. All things considered, a lot of them put up with a lot of crap with minimal complaint -- indwelling nasogastric tubes, frequent blood draws, nasty tasting medicines, being confined to a stall 24 hours a day. You have to be patient and efficient at what you are doing, but that's true for any species, is it not? Maybe I haven't spent enough time working with dogs to make a comparison.

*Foals are a whole different ball of wax, having not yet learned to be civilized for even being caught yet being big enough to run and buck from day one.

Like I said, I love horses and hope to own some after I graduate, but it also boils down to if they are stressed or nervous, they can kill you easily enough. Kind of like why critters like alpacas (who are often more touchy and headstrong than some horses) are preferable to me as patients. A kick from an alpaca or llama barely registers. Not the same with a horse or cow. Even a psychotic dachshund is fairly unlikely to seriously maim you. Not for lack of trying though. 😀 That being said, I don't mind working with horses (I am open to doing mixed animal practice when I graduate in a little over a year) and there's obviously a need for equine vets. It's just that they don't make the ideal patient.

Edit: oh yeah...and their owners are often nutty too. 😉

 

[gilch]

Like I said, I love horses and hope to own some after I graduate, but it also boils down to if they are stressed or nervous, they can kill you easily enough. Kind of like why critters like alpacas (who are often more touchy and headstrong than some horses) are preferable to me as patients. A kick from an alpaca or llama barely registers. Not the same with a horse or cow. Even a psychotic dachshund is fairly unlikely to seriously maim you. Not for lack of trying though. 😀 That being said, I don't mind working with horses (I am open to doing mixed animal practice when I graduate in a little over a year) and there's obviously a need for equine vets. It's just that they don't make the ideal patient.

Edit: oh yeah...and their owners are often nutty too. 😉

Okay--you've explained the horses, but what about cats??😛

BTW, I totally understand what you mean about the horses. That is the one species I think I couldn't stand as the only species I'd see. Personal preferences are great--I'm glad there are people who want to see animals I think I'll probably like to skip.

As for the euthanasia question, I agree w/ others about denying appropriate actions in emergency situations. I also have trouble believing that a vet wouldn't offer euthanasia in terminal or expensive to treat cases. Convenience euthanasia is a whole other story...

 

[Electrophile]

Okay--you've explained the horses, but what about cats??😛

If I have to explain to you why cats can be "difficult" patients, just remind me where you got into vet school at so I can have them revoke your application. 😉😀

 

[DVMorBust]

If I have to explain to you why cats can be "difficult" patients, just remind me where you got into vet school at so I can have them revoke your application. 😉😀

Seriously. I LOVE working with horses (yes they can do lots of damage but it's where my heart's at).

But cats?

Scare the piss out of me.

 

[cwazy cat lady]

Oh I love cat patients... 🙂 Some dogs still make me a bit nervous, though.

As for euthanasia, I've seen so many now and so I am comfortable with it. If I didn't think it was right to euthanize the particular animal, I would be comfortable refusing to perform/partake.

 

[chris03333]

I'll take a pit bull or Rottweiler over a landshark dachshund any day of the week. They don't typically make friendly patients, no matter how sweet they are at home.

That being said, I wouldn't really exclude doxies from my future practice.

👍 ditto

 

[ImaJerseyGirl]

I like the cats that are really dogs in disguise.

 

[Bill59]

Can vets who own their own practices refuse to use euthanasia?

It depends.

Veterinarians are free to chose who they will and will not serve. Just like clients are free to pick their veterinarian. However, once you have elected to accept a patient, that is once you and the client agree to enter into a veterinarian-client-patient relationship, you may not abandon the patient or client. You are ethically and in many cases legally bound to treat the patient until the relationship is properly severed. In general this means you must help the client obtain adequate care for any ongoing problems, such as providing the time and help for them to find another veterinarian.

You also have an ethical and in many cases a legal obligation to provide essential care and to relieve suffering in emergencies. This may also involve euthanasia.

Ear crops, tail docks and declaws and related procedures are elective procedures. There's no reason you would be required to do these.

But while some are elective -- "convenience" euthanasia being the most obvious examples -- others are not. euthanasias. They are medically indicated to relieve suffering.

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[lmscout]

Instead of refusing individual breeds, I'd rather spend my time going around smacking all the owners that insist upon breeding dogs with such obvious defects. A lot more fun and good stress relief.

Oh YES 👍👍👍

Brachycephalic breeds make NO sense to me...

BTW, Chihuahas aren't brachycephalic are they??

I was babysitting for some kids, and they had a very fat one that was obviously having breathing problems...it was about 11 years old, and I suppose the fat around its trachea could inhibit its breathing...

 

[Whyevernot55]

I'm currently on an anti-cat kick after having both hands and arms shredded by two different cats last week. My personal favorites are the cats you just CANNOT restrain, and let me tell you I am good with bad cats. We had 6lbs of angry kitten who would just start alligator rolling when you grabbed her, so you'd have her scruff AND have all four sets of claws sunk into the most convenient limb!

That being said, I don't really like trying to restrain 140lbs of angry, unneutered, unsocialized Rottie either. Give me a big, stupid Warmblood any day of the week! Or flightly, stupid TB. I'm including my own 17hh of idiocy in there.

 

[lmscout]

Honestly, strange dogs and cats make me wary, but I'll be around horses any day of the week 🙂

 

[BlacKAT33]

I love cats. I intern at a feline clinic and its great! yes, there are angry kitties. But i would rather scruff a cat and hold down all four limbs (with help) than to get my face bit off by a huge dog that no one can control. At the other clinic i go to, we usually end up just sedating a dog if it is that fierce and uncontrollable. But still, sometimes you dont know they are like that until they randomly react. Cats can scratch u everywhere, but they cant take a chunk out of your face!! didnt someone recently post a story about their friend who got bit at their clinic on the face and now has to have many surgeries...yikes. you never know what can happen!

 

[Whyevernot55]

I love cats. I intern at a feline clinic and its great! yes, there are angry kitties. But i would rather scruff a cat and hold down all four limbs (with help) than to get my face bit off by a huge dog that no one can control. At the other clinic i go to, we usually end up just sedating a dog if it is that fierce and uncontrollable. But still, sometimes you dont know they are like that until they randomly react. Cats can scratch u everywhere, but they cant take a chunk out of your face!! didnt someone recently post a story about their friend who got bit at their clinic on the face and now has to have many surgeries...yikes. you never know what can happen!

One of my fellow assistants got black eye from the World's Most Evil Cat. This cat launched across the room at her and clawed her in the face. So HA.
😀
We sedate the really scary dogs when we have to. It really depends - sometimes a big dog is easier to restrain simply because there's more to hang on to, and because they react so differently from cats.

Again, give me a horse any day of the week!😉

 

[laurauva2009]

Cats can scratch u everywhere, but they cant take a chunk out of your face!!

A groomer/tech at the clinic I work with had a cat latch onto her lip and seriously mangle it. She had to have plastic surgery to fix it. I would still take a mean cat over a mean dog that weighs more than me... but I would take a mean small to medium sized dog over a mean cat.

 

[Jochebed]

gone

 

[cowgirla]

I will admit to a twinge of sick enjoyment when watching an evil cat be anesthetized in the iso tank...

Whoever invented the "kitty tank of doom" deserves to be a millionaire.

For a while our tank was a modified fish tank...gotta love vets who are handy around the house!

 

[david594]

I will admit to a twinge of sick enjoyment when watching an evil cat be anesthetized in the iso tank...

Right before you cautiously ask everyone in the room if they are pregnant because of the amount of iso you are about to expose them to...

 

[CanadianGolden]

Oh YES 👍👍👍

Brachycephalic breeds make NO sense to me...

BTW, Chihuahas aren't brachycephalic are they??

I was babysitting for some kids, and they had a very fat one that was obviously having breathing problems...it was about 11 years old, and I suppose the fat around its trachea could inhibit its breathing...

No they aren't. However, microdogs often have such small airways that they end up with some brachycephalic type problems like tracheal collapse or stenotic nares. They're not "stenotic" per se, but they're so small that not much air can go through. For example, Norwich Terriers have an issue with everted laryngeal saccules, and they aren't a brachycephalic breed either.

 

[eventualeventer]

If I have to explain to you why cats can be "difficult" patients, just remind me where you got into vet school at so I can have them revoke your application. 😉😀

Fair enough about the horses, but I'll take them over little yippy, nippy dogs any day. Even the homicidal 250 lb foals with projectile diarrhea (those give you the sense of perverse satisfaction that I imagine one gets wrestling an alligator).

Cats, nuh uh. You guys can have them. I'll cuddle my own at home and spoil them to death, then bring them to you to fix.

P.S. The funniest story I have is probably the mini-donk in his 30's who probably weighed only as much as I did but would turn around and try his solid best to kick the crap out of you when you went in to do his meds. Those tiny hooves hurt, but not as much as your sides when you get done laughing.

 

[Whyevernot55]

Fair enough about the horses, but I'll take them over little yippy, nippy dogs any day. Even the homicidal 250 lb foals with projectile diarrhea (those give you the sense of perverse satisfaction that I imagine one gets wrestling an alligator).
...
P.S. The funniest story I have is probably the mini-donk in his 30's who probably weighed only as much as I did but would turn around and try his solid best to kick the crap out of you when you went in to do his meds. Those tiny hooves hurt, but not as much as your sides when you get done laughing.

I once had to tackle a Shetland pony who WOULD NOT be caught. Seriously. It took 8 people out in the pasture to try to corner her, and I ended up just throwing my arms around her neck and getting dragged until she realized that I was, in fact, bigger than her.
God I wish that was on video.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

I agree. 😡 I don't think they'd let me opt out of our neurology rotation because it's 90% dachshunds. 😛

I saw that while I was waiting for my interview at Mizzou: tons of doxies being walked around. What do they use them for in neurology, and why doxies?

 

[eventualeventer]

I once had to tackle a Shetland pony who WOULD NOT be caught. Seriously. It took 8 people out in the pasture to try to corner her, and I ended up just throwing my arms around her neck and getting dragged until she realized that I was, in fact, bigger than her.
God I wish that was on video.

Wow, I can't believe I missed this when you first posted it. Ponies are eeeeeevil.

MOhorsegirl, like I said above, I'm a LA person, but aren't Dachshunds really prone to having spinal problems from being so long-backed?

 

[cowgirla]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this when you first posted it. Ponies are eeeeeevil.

MOhorsegirl, like I said above, I'm a LA person, but aren't Dachshunds really prone to having spinal problems from being so long-backed?

I've never heard of a Doxie that DOESNT have spinal problems. And to top it all off, they're nasty little buggers to work on. Got the **** scratched out of me by one this morning...all I needed was one simple little xray.

 

[PrimalMU]

I've never heard of a Doxie that DOESNT have spinal problems. And to top it all off, they're nasty little buggers to work on. Got the **** scratched out of me by one this morning...all I needed was one simple little xray.

The long haired doxies aren't too bad, its the short hair ones that ya gotta worry about!

 

[alliecat44]

Hey guys,

If you'd like to discuss specific breeds/congenital problems/behavior, feel free to start another thread.

Otherwise, let's try to keep this one on the original topic. 🙂

 

[Willowhand]

I once had to tackle a Shetland pony who WOULD NOT be caught. Seriously. It took 8 people out in the pasture to try to corner her, and I ended up just throwing my arms around her neck and getting dragged until she realized that I was, in fact, bigger than her.

She must be a good pony! I have yet to meet a pony of any size who was willing to acknowledge that anything was bigger. Though I suppose realizing and acknowledging are two different things

Going back to the original topic, I agree that euthanasia has an important place in veterinary medicine. That said, it is surrounded by some ethical issues and bears some serious thought. I personally support it when used respectfully and with the interests of the animals at heart, but I am of the belief that vets should never treat it lightly, force themselves to become desensitized, or lose sight of the fact that they are ending a being's life. Not that I know any vets who are casual about euthanasia, but on occasion I have heard people talk like it is just another simple option to keep things convenient for the humans.

 

[Ruka]

This is a really interesting thread! Where to start?!

Euthanasia: I myself believe it is the responsibility of a vet to ease the suffering of an animal if it is in fatal condition. I also disagree with euthanasia out of convenience. But what do you do when someone's dog breaks a leg and they can not afford the payment to have it fixed? Is that convenience? There are a lot of animal owners who can not afford to properly care for their animals out there, as sad as it may be. In the hospital I volunteered in, there was a new vet grad who struggled with the amount of animals that needed to be euthanized because of owners lack of money. This is why veterinarians need to make tough decisions every day and the profession isnt for the faint of heart. However, it also depends on the type of hospital you choose to work in. In a mixed practice in a rural community, there may be more euthanasias due to lack of money than in a referral or specialized hospital in a city. Thinking about this was something that made me wary of veterinary medicine. However, one of my riding partners told me something that made a lot of sense. If an animal is sick, older, not wanted, etc, and owners do not want to pay for the money to have them put down by a professional, they will find a way, sometimes inhumane, to kill them. I had a very good friend of mine's father phone me because his dog was 15 years old and not moving around so good but he didnt want to upset her by transporting her to the clinic about an hours drive away. He asked me, and Im not making this up, if he could OD her with a concoction of his own pain medications. After discussing all the things that could go wrong with this idea, I told him it was best to phone the vet and discuss possibly having the vet come out and put the dog to sleep, which Im happy to report he did. This is an example of how euthanasia can be a humane way of saying goodbye to a family pet.

Breed Specific ANYTHING: Grew up with a 120 lb Rottie that never left my horses side over 12 years... Current owner and lover of a 4 year old pit bull terrior whose favorite past times are licking my 8 month old kitten, sleeping under the bed covers when Im gone and giving love baths to my 3 year old niece. Enough said. People do unreal things to dogs and punishing an entire breed instead of pointing the finger at the human part of the equation is anthropocentric. Some of the people who seek out the typically intimidating breeds for the purpose of status or fear will not raise an animal to be properly socialized and treated. Yes, pit bulls are high strung and my dog will do damage to another dog because she has been bred to have low pain tolerance, high energy and unbelievable athleticism, but that doesnt mean she is a killer. It means I have a responsibility as a pet owner to make sure she is happy and trusts those around her and be careful of what dogs she is exposed to. As a side, all the people in our vet clinic absolutely love her to bits.

Treating aggressive or scared animals: As someone commented above, put a cat in an iso tank. At our clinic, you drop a cat if it is ready to shred you (all the rooms have doors for a reason) and find another way to deal with it. For all animals, there are procedures to follow to help insure the safety of the ANIMAL and the people working with them. Respect the fact that they can hurt you but dont be afraid of that because the only thing it will do is make you lose the ability to make decisions under pressure.

Wow. Okay.. sorry for the length of this! I want to point out that these are just my opinions. The way I state things can be a little direct but I know there are different approaches to everything and Im not implying that anything I do is the "right way" of doing it.

🙂 I got a little carried away.... good thread.