Evaluate a serious non-trad

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LawyerlyTool

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Okay, long time reader first time poster here. Please evaluate my chances.

Im a lawyer. I graduated from law school 3-4 years ago. I'm a med mal attorney so I sue doctors for a living. I work at a 50+ lawyer plaintiff's firm, the kind that gets million dollar verdicts every month or so, but ultimately I've wanted to be a doctor since the second year of law school and I started taking my pre-reqs as a law student. Im set to finish my pre-req's this semester. It's been slow going with a lot of night classes, all because i dont want to lose my current job until I get that acceptance letter. There is a depression going on in my industry so if I lose this job I will be unemployed for at least a year. Its taken me 3 year to take those 8 classes! During that time I've worked on many very big cases and have several smaller verdicts of my own including one against one of the largest hospitals in NY. In my line of work we interact with doctors daily and we read journal articles to learn about standards of care.

Anyway....

Overall GPA: 3.8
Science GPA: 3.43 (for just the prereq's), 3.55 (with my math classes)

I majored in a lousy social science (poli/sci, econ).

Here is my problem, I have ZERO volunteer experience, ZERO shadowing and ZERO research exposure in the traditional sense. I dont have the time. I work like 60 hours a week. Im in court 3-4 days a week and asking my boss to switch over to part-time would cost me something like $70k a year in opportunity cost, so I could do what? Work as an orderly?

Assuming I get a 30+ MCAT can I get in with ZERO volunteering and ZERO patient contact if I spin a nice story about all the doctors I've deposed and all the articles I've had to read?

If any part of this reads like flame I assure you it isnt.
 
Your science GPA and lack of ECs is seriously going to kill you. Even with a killer MCAT you're going to have a hard time unless you find a way to do some clinical work and some volunteer work. Med schools also like to see a trend in this, rather than see an applicant just putting in their 'obligatory' hours.

Have you done any other volunteer work during / since undergrad? I know a lot of law schools will hold free legal clinics, etc. Anything like that will at least help you out by showing a trend. You should also figure out a way to get clinical experience, and the sooner the better. No offense, but 60 hrs/wk isn't bad at all. You can still fit in plenty of volunteer stuff in there while still having a social life.

Also realize that the majority of physicians find the current malpractice system to be inherently unfair, so your past career might not always win you a warm reception.
 
Research isn't essential, but clinical experience/community service are. For most schools shadowing is expected as well. If you don't show evidence that you've adequately tested the vocation of medicine, you will not get an acceptance. The average applicant seems to have about a year and a half of clinical volunteering gained at 3-4 hours per week. It is preferred that you engage in this activity on a regular basis, rather than in large chunks of time in a few weeks. Shadowing, however, can be done over a few days on a vacation break with several types of doctor.

If you've read SDN widely, you'll have seen posts by very high stat applicants with years of research who got zero acceptances due to a lack of the expected extracurriculars.

Your low BCPM GPA might be fine if you aim for less-selective med schools and do well on the MCAT.
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Assuming I get a 30+ MCAT can I get in with ZERO volunteering and ZERO patient contact if I spin a nice story about all the doctors I've deposed and all the articles I've had to read?
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LOL. I assume this comment is made tongue-in-cheek. Talk about a kiss of death. Conceivably with the right persuasive charm, maybe you could convince adcomms that you "shadowed MDs" while they were on the witness stand and "interacted with patients" during their depositions. Yes, I'm kidding.

To reiterate for emphasis: A 40+ MCAT won't get you in if you have no patient experience in a clinical environment.
 
^WAHT HE SAID U EVILLLLL MAN!! 😛 haha kidding


(evil for suing OUR kind😛)
 
Get the clinical and volunteering together, as a volunteer in an ER. You can get 3-4hrs/wk if you want to do it. The ER is open all night!!

I worked 10hrs and then went and did it....

You will need a 33-34 MCAT to be safe too!

Get shadowing too! 50+hrs
 
Shadowing is essential. Without having shadowed admins don't take "I know this is what I want to do with the rest of my life" seriously. Even when kids have shadowed they still have weird idealistic tv-version doctoring in their heads and many are sorely dissapointed by reality. If you really want this it will be worth it for you to take a bit of time off and do it. If you get vacation time try to schedule it then, worst case scenario cut back on your hours to make it happen. Yeah you'll lose a little cash but that's more than worth it if this is your dream. If you do go to medschool you'll lose a ton of $$ in the process so why not start now right?
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Here is my problem, I have ZERO volunteer experience, ZERO shadowing and ZERO research exposure in the traditional sense. I dont have the time. I work like 60 hours a week. Im in court 3-4 days a week and asking my boss to switch over to part-time would cost me something like $70k a year in opportunity cost, so I could do what? Work as an orderly?
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Bullspit.

You aren't in court on Sat and Sun, are you? If you started right now volunteering in an ER, or at a free clinic, or at a hospice, and doing some shadowing, all done on weekends for 3 to 4 hours per, you would have all the clinical ECs you need to apply next cycle.

Oh, and you are going to need to find some time to prep for the MCAT. Most people who have been away from the material need to spend 3 to 6 months, hitting it 20+ hours a week...

Cry me a river over your ****ing "opportunity costs." Everyone in this game, especially non trads, has "opportunity costs." Your 8 to 10 years of medical training is going to be one gigantic sinkhole of "opportunity costs" too. It goes with the territory.
 
flip26 said:
Bullspit.

You aren't in court on Sat and Sun, are you? If you started right now volunteering in an ER, or at a free clinic, or at a hospice, and doing some shadowing, all done on weekends for 3 to 4 hours per, you would have all the clinical ECs you need to apply next cycle.

Oh, and you are going to need to find some time to prep for the MCAT. Most people who have been away from the material need to spend 3 to 6 months, hitting it 20+ hours a week...

Cry me a river over your ****ing "opportunity costs." Everyone in this game, especially non trads, has "opportunity costs." Your 8 to 10 years of medical training is going to be one gigantic sinkhole of "opportunity costs" too. It goes with the territory.
Click to expand...

Nice reality check!! 👍

Less whine, more work!!
 
Okay, thanks. So, no sort of special consideration for us older candidates with established careers, even if ancillary connected to medicine.

The shadowing I can get from my expert witnesses. At $400+ per hour they will want to keep even a lowly associate like me happy.

Maybe I can work out some sort of volunteer arrangement with one of them too, but most of them are "professional witnesses" so they might not have much of a need for volunteers.

I live in major metro area so its actually not that easy to even land any sort of desirable volunteer position especially in this economy. I wanted to volunteer to cover small claims arbitrations a couple months ago and was basically told the waiting list for the opportunity was over a year long and to get in line. This is like the most hellish job in law (6pm-10pm and dealing with nothing but pro-se's) yet everyone wants to say they've done it.

3-4 hours a week is easier said than done my friend as I have a kid too.

You people who have it all figured out at 22 are luckier than you know.
 
flip26 said:
Your 8 to 10 years of medical training is going to be one gigantic sinkhole of "opportunity costs" too. It goes with the territory.
Click to expand...
Definitely a good reality check for all of us. 👍
 
While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the above, I do think that the shadowing/clinical experience bar is set a little lower for nontrads. Whether fair or not, I definitely have gotten the impression from adcoms that they understand that an older applicant is probably not doing this on a whim and at least has some modicum of understanding of what s/he is getting into. And I do think you could appropriately frame your work experience ECs to show that you have worked with and "get" physicians.

That said though, get some time in a hospital under your belt too!!!

Good luck -
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Okay, thanks. So, no sort of special consideration for us older candidates with established careers, even if ancillary connected to medicine.

The shadowing I can get from my expert witnesses. At $400+ per hour they will want to keep even a lowly associate like me happy.

Maybe I can work out some sort of volunteer arrangement with one of them too, but most of them are "professional witnesses" so they might not have much of a need for volunteers.

I live in major metro area so its actually not that easy to even land any sort of desirable volunteer position especially in this economy. I wanted to volunteer to cover small claims arbitrations a couple months ago and was basically told the waiting list for the opportunity was over a year long and to get in line. This is like the most hellish job in law (6pm-10pm and dealing with nothing but pro-se's) yet everyone wants to say they've done it.

3-4 hours a week is easier said than done my friend as I have a kid too.

You people who have it all figured out at 22 are luckier than you know.
Click to expand...

I am not talking about doing any kind of legal work here. Volunteer or not.

You want to be a physician, right? Or still be a lawyer?

Go volunteer in a hosptial with patient contact....doing vitals, moving patients, talking to patients, cleaning patients, etc.

You must have one night a week where you can do some time.

You have more excuses than the cable man and why he could not get here all day to put my cable in....

Man up and get it done!!!
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Okay, thanks. So, no sort of special consideration for us older candidates with established careers, even if ancillary connected to medicine.

The shadowing I can get from my expert witnesses. At $400+ per hour they will want to keep even a lowly associate like me happy.

Maybe I can work out some sort of volunteer arrangement with one of them too, but most of them are "professional witnesses" so they might not have much of a need for volunteers.

I live in major metro area so its actually not that easy to even land any sort of desirable volunteer position especially in this economy. I wanted to volunteer to cover small claims arbitrations a couple months ago and was basically told the waiting list for the opportunity was over a year long and to get in line. This is like the most hellish job in law (6pm-10pm and dealing with nothing but pro-se's) yet everyone wants to say they've done it.

3-4 hours a week is easier said than done my friend as I have a kid too.

You people who have it all figured out at 22 are luckier than you know.
Click to expand...

I'm a nontrad, too, friend-o. I understand "opportunity costs" all too well.

Umm, just want to be clear here: volunteering to do legal stuff is not going to cut it for med schools, you know? You are looking for clinical experiences - I mentioned some places above - and if you get those experiences at a clinic, you can make contacts with physicians to shadow, too.

Oh, and get a babysitter...evidently you can afford it...but if you can't afford 3 hours on the weekend to volunteer, what the hell you gonna do when you get to med school as far as your kid is concerned?
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Okay, thanks. So, no sort of special consideration for us older candidates with established careers, even if ancillary connected to medicine.

The shadowing I can get from my expert witnesses. At $400+ per hour they will want to keep even a lowly associate like me happy.

Maybe I can work out some sort of volunteer arrangement with one of them too, but most of them are "professional witnesses" so they might not have much of a need for volunteers.

I live in major metro area so its actually not that easy to even land any sort of desirable volunteer position especially in this economy. I wanted to volunteer to cover small claims arbitrations a couple months ago and was basically told the waiting list for the opportunity was over a year long and to get in line. This is like the most hellish job in law (6pm-10pm and dealing with nothing but pro-se's) yet everyone wants to say they've done it.

3-4 hours a week is easier said than done my friend as I have a kid too.

You people who have it all figured out at 22 are luckier than you know.
Click to expand...

Were you just trying to give yourself an opportunity to brag about your wage? Weak... 🤣

There's plenty of volunteer work you can do, even in an economy like this. It really isn't that hard to find. If you're serious, you'll find something. However, there's still the fact that you don't have a consistent record of it, so yeah... there's a decent chance that's going to come up.

Also, even with your "hellish" 60-hour weeks and your kid, you should be able to find 4-5 hours / wk to spend volunteering. Considering your rather low science GPA and the fact that you've been out of school for a while, it's going to take at least this much to study for the MCAT alone so you can get your 30+. I'm sorry, but 60 hrs / wk isn't that bad. If you're looking for pity, you aren't going to find any here. If you're serious, get to work.

BTW, non-trad as well here.
 
I haven't read the whole thread, but I got the gist of it. I understand your predicament, and I know how annoying it is to deal with holier-than-thou pre-meds who think they know everything there is to know, just because they have been assured that they've done all the right things. I avoided this board for that reason, until I realized that this board is actually a decent representation of who is applying to medical school right now, and that if you approach them honestly and with some degree of modesty, they'll be extremely supportive.

I'm a non-traditional student who returned to school as an undergraduate after a long hiatus. My life has been difficult, but I am really don't want sympathy, which is why I have chosen not to tell my full story. I prefer to focus on the present. I gave up a career that was stable, though not nearly as lucrative as yours, to go back to school full-time. That required a HUGE lifestyle change and a giant dose of humility, since I am often regarded as part of the peer group I have chosen. Quite honestly, though it's nice to be mistaken for someone who is 21 when I am in fact 30, there is a long list of things that are really difficult about my current situation. If you want to PM me, I'll elaborate.

I worked full-time while taking 16-18 credits a semester when I decided to return to school. I continued volunteering with the overseas medical mission that first sparked my interest in medicine, and I'm participating in another mission this spring. I stopped working full-time recently so that I can focus on my honors thesis and research project, but I still volunteer at the hospital blood bank because it really matters to me. I show up at a blood drive to sit with donors, and meet with the parents of the infant who is undergoing a transfusion hours before a huge exam, because it reminds me of the reason I am putting myself through this incredible rigor in the first place. I am already in debt, now that I've given up working so that I can maintain my grades.

That said, there is nothing extraordinary about me. I just work really hard because I have decided that all I want is to be a physician, and nothing will stop me, even if I don't get in next year and have to re-apply.

If you haven't done anything beyond working in medical litigation, ask yourself why you're really doing this. I'm not insinuating that you're not doing it for the right reasons, and I'm not really concerned about whether or not you are. For me, volunteering is not something to add to my resume as a talking point in an interview...it's a chance to offer comfort, or (in the case of my role in medical missions) to help provide free surgeries to people who otherwise have no access to healthcare. Even as a "lay person," you can actually impact patients' lives just by being there to talk to them, read to them, and hear their stories in a way that their physicians and nurses only WISH they had time to do.

Wow...I didn't expect to respond this way. But I've known plenty of academically capable people who pursue medicine for the wrong reasons, even if they have the best intentions. Before you embark on a long and arduous journey, just ask yourself why you're not willing to lose some sleep or leisure time to prove to the adcoms and (more importantly) yourself that you're doing this because it will truly be fulfilling, and not because you're just looking for something to fill the empty space in your professional development. You seem bright, and capable of doing whatever matters most to you. But figure out if it really IS medicine. And feel free to contact me any time 🙂 Best of luck to you!
 
My weekends are all about the MCAT prep now. I've been doing Kaplan for about a month and I've has the Examcrackers books for even longer. Im going to take the test in April.

I work half the day on Saturday and little things pop up on Sunday too. Lawyers, like doctors, are basically on-call 24/7. We have a multi jurisdictional practice and Im admitted in 2 states (on opposite ends of the country) so I end up traveling a bit too.

i'll think of something but to do volunteer work now I'd have to basically either not study for the MCAT or stop sleeping, both of which would not be good.

Looks like I might have to push my app back another year....
 
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LawyerlyTool said:
My weekends are all about the MCAT prep now. I've been doing Kaplan for about a month and I've has the Examcrackers books for even longer. Im going to take the test in April.

I work half the day on Saturday and little things pop up on Sunday too. Lawyers, like doctors, are basically on-call 24/7. We have a multi jurisdictional practice and Im admitted in 2 states (on opposite ends of the country) so I end up traveling a bit too.

i'll think of something but to do volunteer work now I'd have to basically either not study for the MCAT or stop sleeping, both of which would not be good.

Looks like I might have to push my app back another year....
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I had to do as a nontrad post bacc applicant with other life obligations...I couldn't get it all done in one year, either...

However, you really should try to do "something" about it now - even just 2 hours a weekend volunteering in a clinic/ER would give you enough credence come next June...shadow just a couple of docs, maybe for a grand total of 40 hours, and you will have jumped the unwritten hurdle.
 
LawyerlyTool said:
My weekends are all about the MCAT prep now. I've been doing Kaplan for about a month and I've has the Examcrackers books for even longer. Im going to take the test in April.

I work half the day on Saturday and little things pop up on Sunday too. Lawyers, like doctors, are basically on-call 24/7. We have a multi jurisdictional practice and Im admitted in 2 states (on opposite ends of the country) so I end up traveling a bit too.

i'll think of something but to do volunteer work now I'd have to basically either not study for the MCAT or stop sleeping, both of which would not be good.

Looks like I might have to push my app back another year....
Click to expand...

Try to spin clinic hours as case research, then you'll get the hours and get paid for them as well!

I know you're busy, but my point is that there's almost always a way to fit in a little bit of something that's important to you. A few hours a week would be fine, but it might need to be over a period longer than 6 months. The adcoms on this site consistently say that it's more about how long the entire experience lasted (e.g., six months vs. three years) rather than how many hours you put in.
 
Like the others have said, you NEED to find the time to volunteer a little bit each week so you can build the time over years. Push the app back and work on it. Also, it sounds like you are still trying to be a lawyer first. I think you are going to have to step back some from that in order to get this done. If you want to do this, you are going to have to make it more important than the law job.

Cut back there in order to get this med app done right.....we all have had to make sacrifes to get there...🙂

GO AND VOLUNTEER!!
 
J DUB said:
that would suck if that is really how he made his $. Pay for his med school by getting it from other docs.....
Click to expand...

Well, that's what medical malpractice attorneys do. So I guess that's how the OP makes his living.
 
are you really that unhappy with your job? youre probably making tons of money and im sure it cant be THAT bad. do you have a girlfriend/married? why not raise a family now?
 
Should I be worried about my 3.43 GPA in the pre-req's or will schools look at my overall BCPM (which is almost 3.6 and basically at the median for most schools) and forgive my one bad grade in Orgo II? I have an A- in Orgo I, but I had a lousy professor for Orgo 2 and ended up with a C (she failed 3/4 of the class). My other science grades are basically all A's and A-'s. Should I retake Orgo II or does the A- in Orgo I demonstrate sufficiently that Im not a *****?

Also, I can take a dumbed down one month bio course over the January break for 3 credits. I would basically be guaranteed an A. It would raise my GPA, but it would be fairly obvious I took the class for just that reason. Should I do it or is it not worth the time?
 
LawyerlyTool said:
Also, I can take a dumbed down one month bio course over the January break for 3 credits. I would basically be guaranteed an A. It would raise my GPA, but it would be fairly obvious I took the class for just that reason. Should I do it or is it not worth the time?
Click to expand...

Jesus, go volunteer somewhere!

If you are thinking about wasting your precious time and money on something as useless as this, you have more than enough time to fix your EC problems.
 
flip26 said:
Jesus, go volunteer somewhere!

If you are thinking about wasting your precious time and money on something as useless as this, you have more than enough time to fix your EC problems.
Click to expand...

+1

OP, you don't seem to want to accept this, but with your stats you MUST have good ECs. Right now you don't have any. It is really not that hard to do! Go peruse the nontraditional student forum to read stories of people who have had it way worse than you and still managed to volunteer. You can definitely do this, but you have to be committed to it.
 
Mopp22 said:
Posted on a website specifically for doctors, med students, and future doctors. :laugh:
Click to expand...

OP is either a very intelligent troll or a very intelligent person who also happens to be a tiny bit too stubborn.... Yes, we non-trads have to make sacrifices. Yes, it sucks to have to step back from work or even quit entirely, but if medicine is what you truly want, you'll do it. That's all there really is to it. Either you choose medicine or you choose the relatively easy life you have now. OP, you've been given suggestions but are constantly trying to skirt the issue at hand. I realize you're a lawyer and that's what lawyers do but it gets old and nobody's falling for it. Eventually, if you want to be a doc, you've got to learn to live and play by the rules... welcome to medicine.
 
OP, whether you are troll or not, I would like to share with you something that might motivate you.

I was at an interview this Monday and there was a lawyer amongst us interviewing! Harvard Law School too -.- So it is definitely achievable!
 
as a non-serious completely frivolous nontrad i can't comment on this thread.
 
I noted your pictorial representation of your opinion.
 
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