Everyone has a responsibility to read this and post!

[FIXENSMILES01]

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This is a direct response to thread

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=5421733&postcount=104

"As you can see, the Joint Commission and its staff are urging program directors and others to use caution in the use of Part I scores for purposes other than licensure. The staff will continue to monitor the scores and keep the communities of interest informed. If you should have any questions or you would like to discuss this, please do not hesitate to contact me at your convenience"
Quoted by Gene A. Kramer, Ph.D.
Secretary, Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations






I wonder if Dr. Kramer knows that this very reputable recommendation is slaughtered by the very directors he communicates with.

We all know that the selection process for FTD advanced standing, starts with this very advise, he recommends them not to do . It is a blatant disregard for Dr. Kramer's professional and educated opinion, not to mention, it underscores the Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations as a whole and their capacity to provide its worthy function to the academic society of dentistry in America.

You and I know for a fact that the "selection process has nothing to do with the person as much as it has to do with the scoring and number system".

The selection program will not look at you as person and what you have to offer as it reflects your accomplishments as an accomplished dentist . They only do this for High school students who are going into Undergraduate programs and even still there is a shade of this type of Academic segregation that takes place. In fact it is on the rise again. Do they mean to infer that, your only a dentist in this world if you graduate from the system of dentistry in America ?

Academic segregation is in full affect in the FTD advanced standing candidate selection process. It is directly and solely related to this issues of scores. So, if you don't have a 90 on part 1 you go to the bottom of the barrel; which means you will not get it. I would love for the American Dental students who get below 85 on part one and below an 80 on part 2 to be told," this is an unacceptable score by our standards, for you being a dentists. ,let alone graduate". Please take the test over again . We all know the hardships associated with the scarifies made to pass these exams in the first place , American and FTD alike. No one wants to do it twice or more.

Do you see this practice in Medicine? I am closely related to both professions and I don't see this practice when you take the USMLE. Fact; you pass, you pass, so you won't be getting the best residency you want; but, you will be in and eventually you will end up practicing in a field you were most likely destined to be in. Not the case for dentistry . I have heard it said be careful that the system won't be deterred by your over all character and academic standing, they might not let you in because you might open a practice that will compete with theirs or their colleagues. This is how ridiculous our system has become.( this was said and no fact will back it up , but it has been said)

By the way, if I have a passing score , on part one and part two , why am I to be treated as if this has no barring on my professional or academic capacity to further myself towards the licensure of dentistry in the United States . Isn't this a major part of the credentialing? This is another fact that the American system of Dental academics butchers, by segregating scores, which reflects the Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations credibility in guiding the academic universities in the scores vs. licensure debate. Once again refer to the opening quote from Dr. Kramer to the Directors of all the university programs.



After all, this is what we as the FTD community are exposed to year after year. This negates what Dr. Kramer has recommended. I challenge any US Advanced standing Programs to confront me on this issue and I will send them my CV and board scores again and challenge them to just give me a fair shake at an interview and nothing more . Let them see who I am and what I have to offer. This goes for those of you in the same situation.

The truth of the matter is, I am more discontent with the fact that most candidates can not even get an interview. It is one generic letter of rejection after another , or the greatest travesty of all , getting no letter , nothing, no call, no email, nothing. They do take your money though . The only response I get from these types of non respondent programs is, when I look at my bank statement and see that they cashed my check . They should be ashamed of themselves.

This segregation I write about shows a blatant lack of respect for the profession as a whole . The ADA(a private organization that acts like a federal committee) and the system of Dental academics and the way they conduct themselves is directly related to the two issue that affect the crisis of dentistry in America today. They are , lack of care to the less fortunate and lack of dental academic professors in the university setting.

We(FTDs) are the one resource to help the profession out. The fact that collectively , the ADA and the university system of dentistry can not figure out how to do eradicate the two mentioned crisis in dentistry , baffles me. It is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS. What is even more baffling is the fact that I can't get into a program with my Mid eighty scores because they feel I will NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE ACADEMICALLY.

I talked with the a Chairman of Boston University Dentistry face to face on this issue and he told me personally, that he knows this is how they think and why I am in the position I am in and in the same breath he said he had no question that once I get into the system I would be a very successful addition to the profession in whatever capacity. But yet I can't get in. We went on discussing this same issue of crisis that I am discussing here with you now. He has the same more or less view that I do . he wants to eradicate the crisis , so ask yourself is it just me? No , we need to look at the issues and come together and take action to resolve the problems.

Instead the system continues to produce their own competition which they protect so much. It is all to insane, it has become a career of greed and shame for the most part . I am not talking about the minority of Doctors that exist to help the needed change in our profession.

I represent the part of dentistry that struggles to survive and that is the part that is dedicated to addressing the issues that affects our great caring profession . We must never forget we are doctors first and foremost. We have a responsibility to care for the person first and the production of competent doctor to facilitate this need.

Please , I urge you , voice your opinion , spread the word and write on this thread if you agree or not . I will then send the link of this thread to Dr. Kramer, so he has an idea of who he is dealing with. Maybe we can collectively address the issues that affect all of us and make a change. Fact , it has been done before.

Your humble colleague,

Dr. William Ragone
FIXENSMILES01
SDN ASST. MOD

 

[elto]

Hi Bill:

137 views and no replies... That says it all!!! I guess everybody feels the same? Just overwhelmed!!! Trying to fight "the system", having the same chances than an ant versus an elephant...

 

[Ice2remember]

Its been almost 2 years now that ,my stats have become my identity ,not my passion for dentistry or......anything else that really matters.I have 87% in part1
and have applied and been rejected to get in to an IDP .Now i am planning to retake and hoping to get 90% .The magic number(as everyone call it) somehow makes the transition from unworthy applicant to worthy applicant and in my opinion it is a shame.....

 

[poumpy]

I don't understand how come some people are accepted with 81 on part I and 79 on part II
it it really only about numbers ?

 

[himal]

Nothing matters, all that matters is score, 90 +, what the schools look for is score simple as that. i have already spent so much in applyin, I am tired. Well heard u need research exp, DA experience, diversity everything is ****. I tried going to a reputed school volunteering despite all the fact, I m still no where having a GPA of 4. The response u get from a school after u apply is , do not enquire bout ur status. How can 1 have so much patience, only thing they allow an FTD is to become a DA, earning as a DA and spending on applications, give me a break, 175 per application and all those test scores, begging people back home for recommendations......... It is unfair.

 

[jcaxs]

I agree its a lot about scores, but not ONLY about scores. Its a lot about letters of recommendations, work experience, etc. If you do get a shot at an interview, then scores have even less weight, at this point its mostly about the interview and how well you do on the practical exam. Offcourse this differs from school to school as well.
I understand all the frustration, as it took me a lot of perseverance to finally get accepted. However we need to understand there's tons of applicants to only a few spots. Its natural programs will end up using grades as strong way to differentiate between candidates, however unfair that may seem to applicants.
My advice is to stop complaining and trying to change the system, just do what it takes and you'll get in sooner or later. No one said it would be easy when we decided to come, and yes they are taking our money, but the only reason we comply with it is because we know dentistry offers a good financial situation in this country. Think about it, if it was too easy , half the world would come here, and maybe the profession wouldn't be so good anymore.
This may sound selfish or arrogant to you, but its just the cruel reality. Unfortunately, its a game. And there will be winners and losers.

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

I would venture to say that most of the waiting and patient veterans like myself and like you were, have to agree with you and some of your opinions. Most of us though if not all of us , understand how many spots there are versus how many candidates there are. I agree that complaining is not necessary and will not be beneficial to our situation. Speaking for only myself and the article and my commentary; it was not a rant of complaining . It was, in fact, a rebut of support to a critical situation that affects us all. Read the article from a view of non complaint and a supporting body of thought and facts that deals with a very real issue that affects us all. A very real and accomplished doctor from with in the system, made a statement that goes against the practice of the very same system that is at the center of the problem.

"My advice is to stop complaining and trying to change the system, just do what it takes and you'll get in sooner or later."
I respect your point and take no offence when I say this , it is just that; your point and your entitled. As for me , the author of this missive; I am not that type of person. I am not a lie down side line type of person . I am a get involved, stay involved type of person.

You were entitle to sit on the side lines and wait for the coaches to put you in the game , so to speak. I gather that you are this type of person. I can also say that you , once you are done with you academics will enjoy a nice private life in private practice. Just remember my "changing of the system" directly engages the realities of what true dental needs are . If in your career, you never try and be part of change like , teach a class or do pro bono work at a public clinic for the poor or even go on a dental mission to a third world country, well then I completely see your point of your response and understand clearly why you responded the way you did.

"This may sound selfish or arrogant to you, but its just the cruel reality. Unfortunately, its a game. And there will be winners and losers".

I respect your opinion and support the fact you have the right to state it. Respect this when I say , It is selfish and arrogant quite frankly. It is selfish, we all understand cruel reality ,you don't own this statement as if we don't share its sentiment with you. It is arrogant, you elude to the fact with out directly stating it, that you are in the game and the rest of us are losers who still are waiting for our chance to get accepted. Well I remind you that you were your own definition at one time for three years. This fact that you mention prior to your conclusion , negates your final thought. I am not in a argument with you and don't want to make this any more personal then I have by addressing some of your points. Large in part, I feel what you wrote has a lot for us to all think about and learn.

The fact is friends and colleagues , there are no losers. Don't ever think that . Be strong, you finished Dental school. Regardless of having a BDS or a DDS like myself, you finished that level of accomplishment. You also maid many sacrifices to get here. You studied and passed an exam that regardless of what the Americans get, you by credential, achieved success. So stay strong stay involved with out change there is no progression, that is my point. Keep changing that which is not working for you , keep staying involved look for other avenues take classes volunteer your time , meet people in the profession, network etc.. I promise you, you will eventually like myself and the commenter ,JCAXS, you will get in. Please, do not look at this rebut as another complaint or rant , if you do, you will miss the point.

Keep the comments coming!

Thanks for reading my thoughts again,

Bill FIXENSMILES01

 

[loco81]

Hi Billy ,

you know how much we appreciate you and know how much you have been struggling and really deserve to have the chance to get your license and finally get into the system. I mean to get the license because on spite of people who believe that what all of us are doing is in order to become a dentist in the US , I strongly disagree with that. We are already dentists , no mather what coountry , US , Dominican Republic , Argentina , or anywhere .I agree with you 100 % .
Don't cross your arms . People like you are the ones that finally succeed. They succeed profesionally and moreover personally . There are things that school or boards don't teach you : Values.
Your friends Martin and Larry

 

[Arabic dentist]

For me, I didn't just lose money applying for the past six years, but I also lost six years of my life and my famillie's life which is just full of sacrifices by my son and my husband in order for me to study. And now I am just starting from the zero point(RETAKING PART ONE) simply because nobody will look at aplication with part one (84) and part two(76) scores. i am not only dissapointed of this system,but I can tell you that I have developed all kind of psycho (specially depression) trying to follow my big dream of becoming a dentis in the US. Every time I think six years back, my tears will be the only answer. What kept me going all of these years was thinking in a positive way that this is GOD's will. I am not the only one in this boat,I do have seven of my friends who do have similar scores and been her for 4-6 years and they havent been accepted yet, some of them already quit.

 

[jcaxs]

Hi Fixen

I can see your point of view and I do think its a valid one. My main intention with my post was to let people know that it is possible to do it without big board scores, and they need to keep focused on the bottom line, which is to get in.

I am not a "lie down side line" type of person. Quite on the contrary, I'm a go getter, if I wasn't I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I think we all are to an extent, otherwise we wouldn't even want to come here.

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with "enjoying a nice private life in private practice". As a matter of fact, about 90-95% of dentists plan on doing just that, whether they'll openly talk about it or not its a different story.

I don't necessarily have to prove this, but I have already in the past done probono work for the poor and I do intend on continuing doing it once I finish my academics. Its not because I have an opinion that people should be more objective in their attempts that I don't care about others.

I never said it or implied that anybody was a loser. If I did I apologize. What I intended to say is that a lot of us will give up( I know some examples personally) for whatever circunstances and its not of us to judge them for doing so. Metaphorically, they will "lose" the game. I was just basically trying to illustrate the idea that in the game, shall we say, some people will succeed and others won't. You do not need to remind me that I was my own definition, cause I will never forget all that I've gone through, and I try to help (and have in the past) a lot of people in this situation now.

Well I agree with you its a healthy debate and there's space for different points of view, and its important to keep things on a professional level like I believe we have. That's all I've got.

 

[newman117]

So have you finished your Advanced Standing program in the US? I inferred from reading this post that you do in fact have your DDS, but I wanted to clarify for myself. If you do have your DDS, how long did it take you to get accepted into a program? Thanks for the information.

I would venture to say that most of the waiting and patient veterans like myself and like you were, have to agree with you and some of your opinions. Most of us though if not all of us , understand how many spots there are versus how many candidates there are. I agree that complaining is not necessary and will not be beneficial to our situation. Speaking for only myself and the article and my commentary; it was not a rant of complaining . It was, in fact, a rebut of support to a critical situation that affects us all. Read the article from a view of non complaint and a supporting body of thought and facts that deals with a very real issue that affects us all. A very real and accomplished doctor from with in the system, made a statement that goes against the practice of the very same system that is at the center of the problem.

"My advice is to stop complaining and trying to change the system, just do what it takes and you'll get in sooner or later."
I respect your point and take no offence when I say this , it is just that; your point and your entitled. As for me , the author of this missive; I am not that type of person. I am not a lie down side line type of person . I am a get involved, stay involved type of person.

You were entitle to sit on the side lines and wait for the coaches to put you in the game , so to speak. I gather that you are this type of person. I can also say that you , once you are done with you academics will enjoy a nice private life in private practice. Just remember my "changing of the system" directly engages the realities of what true dental needs are . If in your career, you never try and be part of change like , teach a class or do pro bono work at a public clinic for the poor or even go on a dental mission to a third world country, well then I completely see your point of your response and understand clearly why you responded the way you did.

"This may sound selfish or arrogant to you, but its just the cruel reality. Unfortunately, its a game. And there will be winners and losers".

I respect your opinion and support the fact you have the right to state it. Respect this when I say , It is selfish and arrogant quite frankly. It is selfish, we all understand cruel reality ,you don't own this statement as if we don't share its sentiment with you. It is arrogant, you elude to the fact with out directly stating it, that you are in the game and the rest of us are losers who still are waiting for our chance to get accepted. Well I remind you that you were your own definition at one time for three years. This fact that you mention prior to your conclusion , negates your final thought. I am not in a argument with you and don't want to make this any more personal then I have by addressing some of your points. Large in part, I feel what you wrote has a lot for us to all think about and learn.

The fact is friends and colleagues , there are no losers. Don't ever think that . Be strong, you finished Dental school. Regardless of having a BDS or a DDS like myself, you finished that level of accomplishment. You also maid many sacrifices to get here. You studied and passed an exam that regardless of what the Americans get, you by credential, achieved success. So stay strong stay involved with out change there is no progression, that is my point. Keep changing that which is not working for you , keep staying involved look for other avenues take classes volunteer your time , meet people in the profession, network etc.. I promise you, you will eventually like myself and the commenter ,JCAXS, you will get in. Please, do not look at this rebut as another complaint or rant , if you do, you will miss the point.

Keep the comments coming!

Thanks for reading my thoughts again,

Bill FIXENSMILES01

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

Hi Fixen

I can see your point of view and I do think its a valid one. My main intention with my post was to let people know that it is possible to do it without big board scores, and they need to keep focused on the bottom line, which is to get in.

I am not a "lie down side line" type of person. Quite on the contrary, I'm a go getter, if I wasn't I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I think we all are to an extent, otherwise we wouldn't even want to come here.

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with "enjoying a nice private life in private practice". As a matter of fact, about 90-95% of dentists plan on doing just that, whether they'll openly talk about it or not its a different story.

I don't necessarily have to prove this, but I have already in the past done probono work for the poor and I do intend on continuing doing it once I finish my academics. Its not because I have an opinion that people should be more objective in their attempts that I don't care about others.

I never said it or implied that anybody was a loser. If I did I apologize. What I intended to say is that a lot of us will give up( I know some examples personally) for whatever circunstances and its not of us to judge them for doing so. Metaphorically, they will "lose" the game. I was just basically trying to illustrate the idea that in the game, shall we say, some people will succeed and others won't. You do not need to remind me that I was my own definition, cause I will never forget all that I've gone through, and I try to help (and have in the past) a lot of people in this situation now.

Well I agree with you its a healthy debate and there's space for different points of view, and its important to keep things on a professional level like I believe we have. That's all I've got.

GREAT TO HEAR YOU ELABORATE AND IT IS EVEN BETTER TO STAND CORRECTED. KEEP UP THE HARD WORK .👍👍👍

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

So have you finished your Advanced Standing program in the US? I inferred from reading this post that you do in fact have your DDS, but I wanted to clarify for myself. If you do have your DDS, how long did it take you to get accepted into a program? Thanks for the information.

I do not have an American DDS, I do have a DDS from the country I graduated from.

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

I would encourage more to reply to the issue concerning this statement from Dr. Kramer.

Issue:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...&postcount=104

"As you can see, the Joint Commission and its staff are urging program directors and others to use caution in the use of Part I scores for purposes other than licensure. The staff will continue to monitor the scores and keep the communities of interest informed. If you should have any questions or you would like to discuss this, please do not hesitate to contact me at your convenience"
Quoted by Gene A. Kramer, Ph.D.
Secretary, Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

Hi Billy ,

you know how much we appreciate you and know how much you have been struggling and really deserve to have the chance to get your license and finally get into the system. I mean to get the license because on spite of people who believe that what all of us are doing is in order to become a dentist in the US , I strongly disagree with that. We are already dentists , no mather what coountry , US , Dominican Republic , Argentina , or anywhere .I agree with you 100 % .
Don't cross your arms . People like you are the ones that finally succeed. They succeed profesionally and moreover personally . There are things that school or boards don't teach you : Values.
Your friends Martin and Larry

Thank you for the post Martin and Larry . I hope all is well in Cali. Tell Larry heis in my prayers for the upcoming part1. You take care as well i will call you next week. Stay out of the sun 👍😎 Talk to you guys soon.

-Bill

 

[doc2006]

for all FTDs like me..struggle to persue our dream to work as a Dentist here in USA is on...it seems sometime impossible to get in to "the system"...it does not metter how good ur hand is as a dentist.only The score metters for them..mid eighty scores are not only unacceptable but seems like a shame..no one cares how good u were in ur country as a dentist..even working experience doesnt count that much as score counts.. not only we r loosing our money on application, we loose confidance also.. we do not have any choice but to accept the system...and when we will get in to it...nothing can stop us...

 

[dr37]

hi all,

this is very true..the only n most imp thing which matters for acceptance is ur nbde score.
to an extent this is true that they have loads of applications n they use the score to select the students,

but on the other hand,,what abt the ones who dnt score in 90s. at this point we should talk about the majority not abt the handful of people who get accepted.
as in one of the posts above, one dentist is applying for last six years,, who'll compensate fr the time ,effort n sacrifices she hs gone through??
if she's unable to score then does it it mean she's not worthy of being a dentist..

well, there are many people like her, she hs been really brave to put up that kind of effort n hardwork..but it'll be really beneficial if there is a change in the system

in my opinion scores shouldn't be the only criteria ..they should look at the person as a whole rather than his or her scores, but unfortunatly this is the norm which is followed.

 

[Ice2remember]

I think we are all in unison here when i say scores matter....... A LOT.Most of us think there should be a change in the system .may be we could all post our ideas about the changes in the SYSTEM that might have a better outcome in this whole charade.
this is the change i think would make a difference.(emotionally)

1) schools who won't consider a applicant below 90 % score in part 1(like BU) should be upfront about it in their requirements.this would save us a whole lot of money in applications,and the ordeal of going through the interview ,waitlisted and waiting.I understand this does'nt help much but it is one less rejection that i don't have to be worried about.

Now.....your turn.

 

[NileBDS]

I agree its a lot about scores, but not ONLY about scores. I speak from experience as I was accepted with an 83 on part I to the University of Colorado program. Its a lot about letters of recommendations, work experience, etc. If you do get a shot at an interview, then scores have even less weight, at this point its mostly about the interview and how well you do on the practical exam. Offcourse this differs from school to school as well.
I understand all the frustration, as it took me 3 years of applying to finally get accepted. However we need to understand there's tons of applicants to only a few spots. Its natural programs will end up using grades as strong way to differentiate between candidates, however unfair that may seem to applicants.
My advice is to stop complaining and trying to change the system, just do what it takes and you'll get in sooner or later. No one said it would be easy when we decided to come, and yes they are taking our money, but the only reason we comply with it is because we know dentistry offers a good financial situation in this country. Think about it, if it was too easy , half the world would come here, and maybe the profession wouldn't be so good anymore.
This may sound selfish or arrogant to you, but its just the cruel reality. Unfortunately, its a game. And there will be winners and losers.

Excellent post and even better illustration that no, it is not all about scores.

As A. Einstien said, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results would amount to insanity.

All of those re-applicants just sitting around waiting for the new application season to come by for you to "take another shot" at admissions would be the same thing in my opinion. Insanity. You're literally rolling the dice on your future hoping the ADCOM changes their mind somehow, and decide all of a sudden that you're an attractive applicant. Is that logic ? No.

What has changed in your application over the past 6 years (for arabicdentist) who has been applying for 6 years ?
Board scores ?
Research publications ?
Masters degree ?
Clinical and/or CE experiences ?
Dental assisting experience ?

 

[NileBDS]

You were entitle to sit on the side lines and wait for the coaches to put you in the game , so to speak. I gather that you are this type of person. I can also say that you , once you are done with you academics will enjoy a nice private life in private practice. Just remember my "changing of the system" directly engages the realities of what true dental needs are . If in your career, you never try and be part of change like , teach a class or do pro bono work at a public clinic for the poor or even go on a dental mission to a third world country, well then I completely see your point of your response and understand clearly why you responded the way you did.
Bill FIXENSMILES01

I personally think this was very UNprofessional on your part BILL to take a short shot at "jcaxs" in stereotyping him a "fold arms" or "side liner" type of person just because you do not agree with him.

I think all of us would agree that "jcaxs" is a very hard working person, and further more a successful example to all of us foreign graduates which should be emulated, rather than mocked.

S/He does not have to prove anything to anyone. S/He has proven everything s/he needs to the only person that matters. Him/herself.

I hope we can all follow his lead and keep up.

 

[NileBDS]

hi all,

this is very true..the only n most imp thing which matters for acceptance is ur nbde score.
to an extent this is true that they have loads of applications n they use the score to select the students,

but on the other hand,,what abt the ones who dnt score in 90s. at this point we should talk about the majority not abt the handful of people who get accepted.
as in one of the posts above, one dentist is applying for last six years,, who'll compensate fr the time ,effort n sacrifices she hs gone through??
if she's unable to score then does it it mean she's not worthy of being a dentist..

well, there are many people like her, she hs been really brave to put up that kind of effort n hardwork..but it'll be really beneficial if there is a change in the system

in my opinion scores shouldn't be the only criteria ..they should look at the person as a whole rather than his or her scores, but unfortunatly this is the norm which is followed.

dr37.
Please don't get me wrong. You are of course entitled to express your opinions, but it is also my responsibility to clarify to everyone else reading your opinions that they are far from reality.
Perception is different than reality.

The only reason you need high scores would be to compensate for any other shortcomings on your application to the ADCOM; ie, fresh graduate, no experience, not so good hand skills, ....
If you are a well rounded applicant, and you can prove it on your interview, then scores will not matter as much anymore.
Now it also depends on what school you're looking at. UPENN, BU and NYU have very open rules about their score requirement. You can not change that ! If you can't afford it, don't put it on your shopping list.

I mean give me a break .. some people get interviews at the same schools year after year and guess what ? They blow it year after year !
Once you have an interview, the school is basically saying, "OK, here is your shot. Show us what you're made of". If you don't get in after being interviewed, there is little blame to go around but for your own self.

On the other hand, many people with %90+ never get one single interview, and many people with %80+ have been interviewed and accepted every single day.

Find out ways to improve your application. BE PROACTIVE. Call schools, schedule your own meetings with their admission staff/faculty and ask them what they are looking for, because GOD knows it is not just scores and a pretty face.

 

[NileBDS]

On a different note, did you guys forget where we are ? This is the United States of America. One of the most advanced nations in the world, and the most powerful of all.
No one said it would be easy. There will be a lot of frustration, disappointment and sacrifices to be made along the way ... but this is all part of the American dream !

None of us are entitled to treat patients. In other words, it is not your right as a health care provider to treat patients but rather a privilege.
The same goes for the everything else here. The only thing you're entitled to is your liberty ! That's it. Everything after that only comes with hard work, dedication, determination and sacrifice.

None of us are entitled to dental school admission in this country, specially that most of us here are not even permanent residents or citizens. You can fight for it, but please don't make it sound like everyone is against you. Fight like a champ ! Put up your fists and be prepared for an uphill struggle, because once you make it and look back, there will be no words in the world to describe your self fulfillment and feeling of pride.

I also want to say, it is sad but true that not all people will make it. The only way to "weed" out the very ill determined or the "less capable" of us is competition. And it is apparent that some of us are not even ready to put up a fight for their own dreams.
This has been true for billions of years. Nature, evolution and natural selection.

Ok, that's enough for me.

 

[NileBDS]

And just for the records, my ECE GPA is 2.9 and boards scores are I:81 / II:82. I am also privellaged to have been accepted to one of the finest dental schools in the country.

What numbers ?

 

[NileBDS]

Hi Fixen

I can see your point of view and I do think its a valid one. My main intention with my post was to let people know that it is possible to do it without big board scores, and they need to keep focused on the bottom line, which is to get in.

I am not a "lie down side line" type of person. Quite on the contrary, I'm a go getter, if I wasn't I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I think we all are to an extent, otherwise we wouldn't even want to come here.

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with "enjoying a nice private life in private practice". As a matter of fact, about 90-95% of dentists plan on doing just that, whether they'll openly talk about it or not its a different story.

I don't necessarily have to prove this, but I have already in the past done probono work for the poor and I do intend on continuing doing it once I finish my academics. Its not because I have an opinion that people should be more objective in their attempts that I don't care about others.

I never said it or implied that anybody was a loser. If I did I apologize. What I intended to say is that a lot of us will give up( I know some examples personally) for whatever circunstances and its not of us to judge them for doing so. Metaphorically, they will "lose" the game. I was just basically trying to illustrate the idea that in the game, shall we say, some people will succeed and others won't. You do not need to remind me that I was my own definition, cause I will never forget all that I've gone through, and I try to help (and have in the past) a lot of people in this situation now.

Well I agree with you its a healthy debate and there's space for different points of view, and its important to keep things on a professional level like I believe we have. That's all I've got.

Thanks jxacs for keeping the discussion mature and for your very professional contribution.
I can clearly see why you are where you are now.

 

[Arabic dentist]

Nilebds
I did improve my nbde score and still trying to improve it even more, took CE courses, worked as a dental assistant,did my GPR in my country for a year. I am still trying to improve in every aspect. I am not just sitting and waiting for the admission commitee to chang their criteria of selection.

 

[NileBDS]

Nilebds
I did improve my nbde score and still trying to improve it even more, took CE courses, worked as a dental assistant,did my GPR in my country for a year. I am still trying to improve in every aspect. I am not just sitting and waiting for the admission commitee to chang their criteria of selection.

Arabicdentist, I have been around long enough to know how things work around here, specially with advanced standing admissions. I have seen people come and go and pretty much can tell you the schools and requirements by heart.
I am not just posting all these posts out of speculation or guess work.
I am very confident that most of what I say is very realistic, with no sugar coating.

If you can show me how much you have improved your application over the past 6 (SIX !) years, then we may have a more fruitful discussion.

What are your old and new scores if I may ask ?
How long did you work as a dental assistant (expanded function or not) ?
How many CE credit hours ? ADA credits or were they from your home country ?
I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but your GPR from home really has almost no significance at all on your application ...

 

[jcaxs]

Hey Nile

I appreciate your comments and can see that you share a similar point of view in regards to this matter. I have been reading this forum for a while but just recently started to get more involved. I have read a lot of your posts and noticed you always provide sincere, honest and knowledgeable feedback for users in this forum. Keep up the good work and good luck on your dental school experience!

 

[loco81]

please niles bds , I think that it is not that nice and fair to keep atacking everybody and showing off that you got in with 81 , 82 and 2,9 , good for you . I agree with you in the fact of being proactive. You don't know different people situations , maybe they are married and can not move around the states that easily or their wifes are pregnant , etc.
Sometimes it is a matter of being in the right place at the right time no matter what you do . Instead of showing off constantly why don't you try helping others . What did fixensmiles do to you ?. Can you just understand that writing and posting for some people perhaps Fixensmiles or me or anyone is just a way of expressing out a bunch of repressed frustrations . Please Niles Bds , try to be a bit more emphatetic and caring , evenmore in your situation . This kind of threads and posting does really not affect me at all but I know many people that could get hurt by it.
Thank you very much ,
Sincerely Martin

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

Your quote Niles,

"I personally think this was very UNprofessional on your part BILL to take a short shot at "jcaxs" in stereotyping him a "fold arms" or "side liner" type of person just because you do not agree with him."



I have a lot of respect for you Nile but your failure to state this ,

"GREAT TO HEAR YOU ELABORATE AND IT IS EVEN BETTER TO STAND CORRECTED. KEEP UP THE HARD WORK ."

Which was my follow up statement to Jax. This says volumes about you . I have nothing else to say .It is self explanatory. It is ironic though, that you choose to put this statement down and then cast the proverbial stone as to comment on my professionalism.

bye the way does this sound familiar Niles,

Nilebds
I did improve my nbde score and still trying to improve it even more, took CE courses, worked as a dental assistant,did my GPR in my country for a year. I am still trying to improve in every aspect. I am not just sitting and waiting for the admission committee to chang their criteria of selection.


I have no problem with your opinion , Like I said I do respect it , If anything we here on this forum should all be proud to have you my friend, but third party personal opinions outside of third party opinions can and will get touchy.Jcax defended himself and I stood corrected and admitted it. I respect you but feel your involvement on a personal level was equally unprofessional.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Instead the system continues to produce their own competition which they protect so much. It is all to insane, it has become a career of greed and shame for the most part .

Just wanted to comment on the statement above.

I think the competition is brought on by the 'supply and demand' of the system. We all know the story. There are far too many foreign trained dentists applying to the advanced standing program. However, there are only so many resources available to accommodate everyone.

It's a sad fact of life but we all have to accept the reality. The competition is simply getting fierce each year. This is so with advanced standing programs and other advanced specialty dental programs.

I can understand those who have worked hard and still didn't get in. It's upsetting and terrible to feel like you're not wanted. Internet is a great place to vent. But I would seek out help from a real person close to you. Find a dental school near you and try to get yourself known (being proactive). Find out what deficiencies may have affected your profile and try to strengthen them. If your English isn't one of your strengths, then work on your English. Practice your conversation with a native speaker!

The key is to market yourself as the most attractive candidate who would withstand all the rigors of the advanced standing program. Believe me (others can chime in, too): advanced standing program is not a walk in the park. You will be thrown down to the undergraduate level and it won't be pleasant!

 

[NileBDS]

Hi loco.

Since you are fairly new to SDN, I will not waste your time in explaining who I am or what I believe in.
If you are truly interested in knowing what kind of person I am, and what sort of help and dedication I offer SDN, please feel free to consult my 600+ posts, as opposed to just one.
Also it is new to me that an 81% is showing off ... but hey, I'll take it !

Good Luck.

please niles bds , I think that it is not that nice and fair to keep atacking everybody and showing off that you got in with 81 , 82 and 2,9 , good for you . I agree with you in the fact of being proactive. You don't know different people situations , maybe they are married and can not move around the states that easily or their wifes are pregnant , etc.
Sometimes it is a matter of being in the right place at the right time no matter what you do . Instead of showing off constantly why don't you try helping others . What did fixensmiles do to you ?. Can you just understand that writing and posting for some people perhaps Fixensmiles or me or anyone is just a way of expressing out a bunch of repressed frustrations . Please Niles Bds , try to be a bit more emphatetic and caring , evenmore in your situation . This kind of threads and posting does really not affect me at all but I know many people that could get hurt by it.
Thank you very much ,
Sincerely Martin

 

[NileBDS]

Let's please get back to the original topic of discussion.
This has come to a point of being too personal and unnecessary, needless to say, non-contributory to the whole thread.

Let's put this back on track guys.

Your quote Niles,

"I personally think this was very UNprofessional on your part BILL to take a short shot at "jcaxs" in stereotyping him a "fold arms" or "side liner" type of person just because you do not agree with him."



I have a lot of respect for you Nile but your failure to state this ,

"GREAT TO HEAR YOU ELABORATE AND IT IS EVEN BETTER TO STAND CORRECTED. KEEP UP THE HARD WORK ."

Which was my follow up statement to Jax. This says volumes about you . I have nothing else to say .It is self explanatory. It is ironic though, that you choose to put this statement down and then cast the proverbial stone as to comment on my professionalism.

bye the way does this sound familiar Niles,

Nilebds
I did improve my nbde score and still trying to improve it even more, took CE courses, worked as a dental assistant,did my GPR in my country for a year. I am still trying to improve in every aspect. I am not just sitting and waiting for the admission committee to chang their criteria of selection.


I have no problem with your opinion , Like I said I do respect it , If anything we here on this forum should all be proud to have you my friend, but third party personal opinions outside of third party opinions can and will get touchy.Jcax defended himself and I stood corrected and admitted it. I respect you but feel your involvement on a personal level was equally unprofessional.

 

[FIXENSMILES01]

Let's please get back to the original topic of discussion.
This has come to a point of being too personal and unnecessary, needless to say, non-contributory to the whole thread.

Let's put this back on track guys.

Agreed back to the issue at hand.