Expensive Private School, Touro, or reapply?

[ToofDood]

So I've been accepted to both a rather expensive private school and Touro pretty late in the game. I'd already basically written off the the former due to cost and decided to reapply to my state school(s). I'm eager to become a dentist, and it seems like a fine school, but after much consideration a DDS is NOT worth $450k+. Yes, I should have thought about that before applying to the school, but I'm sure others can attest that the cost sometimes doesn't really hit you until you're accepted.

Then I got an acceptance offer from Touro. In terms of cost, it would save something like $100k, assuming they don't jack up tuition. Although Touro still isn't cheap, that's a significant amount of money to save. However, I'm extremely nervous about being in the school's inaugural class. It could turn out like UNE and MOSDOH, which seem to be doing fantastic, or it could end up like LECOM (I read that 74% just failed part 2 of boards in another thread; can anyone verify this?). I have very real concerns that the patient pool in Westchester county will not be sufficient for the class size, and the school didn't exactly seem to be "on top of things" when I interviewed in March. My interviewer was extremely late, the deans were supposed to show up at our interview session and never did, the faculty didn't really address the curriculum, the "facilities" were just an empty building under renovation, etc. All I really recall them talking about was how sure they were that they'd get accreditation in time. Granted, they did.

I think I'd stand a pretty good chance of getting into my state school (actually, it's a neighboring state school that would take me as in-state) if I reapply. I interviewed last August with a very average DAT with some below average subscores. I felt good about the interview, but decided to retake the DAT to help my chances and improved pretty drastically. Unfortunately, the adcoms didn't see my new scores before they made a final decision. I called the school recently to ask about turning down my private school offer this year and reapplying. After marveling over my updated DAT scores, they said "If you choose to apply again, you'll be VERY competitive." They said to call if I reapply and they'd make a special note on my app. Another neighboring state school basically guaranteed me an interview.

The perks of going to one of the state schools are reduced cost of attendance (another $100k+ less than Touro), the peace of mind of going to an excellent, well established program, and remaining closer to home. I'm young, so I don't really mind the extra year spent where I currently am. However, I can't decide whether it's worth the risk of not getting in next year.

Not sure why I'm posting to a bunch of other predents on an anonymous internet forum; mostly venting I guess. But I'd be interested to hear what you all think, especially any who have input about being part of an inaugural class.

Cheers!

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[Incis0r]

I called the school recently to ask about turning down my private school offer this year and reapplying. After marveling over my updated DAT scores, they said "If you choose to apply again, you'll be VERY competitive." They said to call if I reapply and they'd make a special note on my app. Another neighboring state school basically guaranteed me an interview.

The perks of going to one of the state schools are reduced cost of attendance (another $100k+ less than Touro), the peace of mind of going to an excellent, well established program, and remaining closer to home. I'm young, so I don't really mind the extra year spent where I currently am. However, I can't decide whether it's worth the risk of not getting in next year.

WOW- I never knew schools did this. That's pretty cool. I think you're in a fantastic position.

Will your DAT scores still be valid next year?

 

[sweetpeeas]

I've heard some horror stories of those who have been accepted to a dental school and decided to reapply. Things did not pan out like they wanted, and it took 2-3 tries after to gain an acceptance. I, personally, would not risk it because nothing is guaranteed until you have something in writing, or an official letter of acceptance.

However, with your situation, I guess you will have a good shot in gaining an acceptance at your desired programs if you have a really good rapport with the admissions committees. If you have a really good GPA, go ahead and reapply to programs you actually will consider going.

Don't forget: the AADSAS app will ask if you have been accepted to a professional/dental school before, and you have to 1) say yes and 2) explain why you didn't go. I am sure you will come up with a better reason than "the school I was accepted to was too expensive."

 

[JLT223]

I'd also be very weary of what someone from your state school says. Words are just words, it's not like you have a binding document regarding your acceptance when reapplying with them. Nothing is guaranteed at all, especially with this process. Just my two cents.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

you turned down USC?

congratz. thats a good choice

btw, it is unwise to take what the admission counselors say (likely people who pick up the phone) without any binding contract deeply to heart.

I was rejected without interviews to 3 schools that said my app is competitive (after i got rejected I sent them an inquiry asking how to strengthen my app

 

[Incis0r]

This.

Question for you- if someone answers "YES" to that question, is that an automatic red flag?

Or is it only a red flag if the reason is not...reasonable?

 

[sumin5924]

You're not guaranteed an acceptance next cycle. Plus, I heard reapplying after having an acceptance is academic suicide..unless you had a legit reason.
For me, it's not worth the risk and you're losing out on valuable time out in the field making real money as dentist and establishing a practice.

 

[workofshart]

Why not apply for something like HPSP? There are multiple service repayment options if you're worried about cost. If I don't get into my state school that's the route I'm going screw the debt.

Sent from my LG-D801 using SDN mobile

 

[schmoob]

Go expensive. Take what you can get.
Think of the year lost if you reapply as lost inome you could've spent on paying loans and becoming better clinically.
You'll be ok.

 

[ToofDood]

WOW- I never knew schools did this. That's pretty cool. I think you're in a fantastic position.

Will your DAT scores still be valid next year?

It was very cool that they were so positive, but ultimately there are still no guarantees. Yes, they will be valid next year.

Considering there are qualified applicants out there who may not have received acceptances, I approach looking at re-applicants who have previously been accepted but declined with a more skeptical lens, both for ethical and financial reasons. Whatever the reason to have declined would be also reveals a lot about the applicant's priorities. People sometimes forget dental school is a business, and they don't want to accept students who would be at risk of bailing on them mid-way through their DDS/DMD program simply because the fear of increasing debt begins to set in. Answering yes to that question is not an automatic red flag, if the re-applicant had a very special circumstance beyond his/her control to have declined an acceptance in previous cycle(s), but truth of the matter is very few re-applicants do.

I've seen people bring that AADSAS question up several time before. As I mentioned, I contacted the schools already about turning down my offer this year, mostly for financial reasons. They didn't seem at all phased by it. One explicitly agreed that this particular private school costs too much to attend. Dental school is a business, yes, but so is dentistry. Spending $450k+ on a dental degree is financially irresponsible (especially if you can get an equivalent degree for half that) and I think other schools recognize that. I think it could instead be seen as exhibiting maturity and being forward-thinking about your career, instead of "OMG I HAVE TO GO TO DENTAL SCHOOL RIGHT NOW AND I'LL PAY WHATEVER IT TAKES. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES." Also, who bails midway through a program because of debt? Then you're still left with a lot of debt and no reasonable way to pay it off.

I'd also be very weary of what someone from your state school says. Words are just words, it's not like you have a binding document regarding your acceptance when reapplying with them. Nothing is guaranteed at all, especially with this process. Just my two cents.

I agree, which is why I'm not 100% on board with reapplying. However, at least if I do I'm not going into it completely blind.

Why not apply for something like HPSP? There are multiple service repayment options if you're worried about cost. If I don't get into my state school that's the route I'm going screw the debt.

Sent from my LG-D801 using SDN mobile

I've definitely considered HPSP. However, it's competitive and quite late to apply this year. I could apply after my first year for a 3 year scholarship, but even then there are no guarantees that I'd get it. I'm also pretty sure I would not like military living and I find the idea of owing someone 3-4 years of my life after dental school unsettling. I'd much rather get started on private practice after graduating and try to enjoy my younger years as a dentist. NHSC is much more appealing, but again, there are no guarantees that I'd get it.


There are +/-'s to all three of my options, which is what makes this so difficult.

Thank you all for your responses. Does anyone have input about being in the inaugural class of a school like Touro?

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Says the person who applied to an expensive dental school, got accepted, and then decided he doesn't want to go. Real forward-thinking.



Who bails midway through a program? For one, kids who can't handle the curriculum. Two, the same people who bail midway through an application process because they finally realize the price tag, or those who may come into a lot of money at some point and then decide dentistry is not what they really wanted to do. Financial planning skills before you make decisions (i.e. applying to a really expensive school or a brand new program) translate to one's ability to critically think long-term for patient care planning IMO.

Bottom line: There's always a way to pay off debt. How you do that requires the ability to be "forward-thinking." Dental schools, including the most expensive one, won't charge more than you can intelligently handle.

your comment is pretty hurtful. some applicants, under the stress of the cycle, just try to cast a wide net and applying to these schools as a back up with the hope of not having to consider going to one of their back ups. However, in life, sometimes, they have to consider their back up.

dental schools, some of the private ones, charge the price that graduated dentists just 7-8 years ago fell off the chair upon hearing how much they charge now. I think the prices the private schools charge now seem okay to us because we are conditioned to accept it. But it is the amount, when some realize it, wont intelligently be able to handle it.

plus, I am 90% positive the school the OP talks about is either USC or NYU. and No, if you have half a million dollar debt at 6.8%, you wont even be able to manage to pay it off anytime soon. you have to stretch it to 20-25 years or go on IRB because in life, you have to have house mortgage and have $ to build a family.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

if this is the way things roll from now on, it will be soon (4-5 years) when the most expensive school reach 600k (including interest upon graduation), do you still find 600k debt acceptable or not?

or dental schools will undergo the price reform and restructuring (aka private schools have a hard time recruiting applicants) and few of these private schools will close down?? who knows.

 

[grannick]

Go expensive. Take what you can get.
Think of the year lost if you reapply as lost inome you could've spent on paying loans and becoming better clinically.
You'll be ok.

I'd also say go expensive. If something happens (negative) at Touro, that 100k in savings will end up being $x wasted by accepting Touro (if something happens). For your future, I wouldn't risk it on Touro's success

 

[Lane138]

I can give some perspective from friends who attended brand new dental schools as part of the inaugural classes (LECOM and University of New England). Yes, they found the organization of curriculum confusing sometimes (because it's new for students and faculty), and yes, the administration was sometimes extra harsh on class attendance (because the school is trying to become accredited and meet CODA standards). Those suck, but do they suck more than at a regular school? Hard to tell.

On the flip side, they told of several sweet bonuses that I think are noteworthy. One, because you're the first class, you will be a trailblazer. There are no student organizations, ASDA chapters, student councils, so you get to be part of building it from the ground up. "Founder" or even "Founder and President" looks pretty sweet on a resume (if you care about residencies or that kind of thing. Which, let's be honest, you're SDN so you do care. 😉)

Second, because everything is new, there will be plenty of opportunities for students to give feedback and essentially shape the curriculum to your liking. I heard that faculty have been very receptive and accommodating to what the first year class says, even down to class hours and which new supplies to order. So in this way, your experience might actually be better than someone at an established school.

Third, because everything is new, your facilities will be awesome. Unlike older dental school clinics. I toured UNE and was really jealous.


In general, remember, every year you hold off on dental school is losing a year of future salary (~100k). So it's up to you to decide whether that's worth it.

 

[ToofDood]

Says the person who applied to said expensive dental school, got accepted, and then decided he doesn't want to go. Real forward-thinking.

I applied early in the cycle and couldn't possibly predict what the final outcome could be if accepted to this school. The school could have offered a scholarship, or if I'd been accepted earlier I could have applied for scholarship programs and made my decision based on the outcome of that. Since I wasn't accepted until very late in the cycle, that's no longer an option. I also didn't quite know how I would fit with the program/location before interviewing. I should note that this is the only school I interviewed at where a random student came up to me and advised me not to attend.

I also haven't absolutely decided I don't want to go. I'm just weighing my options as much as possible.

Who bails midway through a program? For one, kids who can't handle the curriculum. Two, the same people who bail midway through an application process because they finally realize the price tag, or those who may come into a lot of money at some point and then decide dentistry is not what they really wanted to do. Financial planning skills before you make decisions (i.e. applying to a really expensive school or a brand new program) translate to one's ability to critically think long-term for patient care planning IMO.

Like I said, it's not possible to completely predict the outcome with every school you apply to. This especially went for Touro, as nobody could predict how the school would turn out. Again, a significant part of the reason I'm hesitant to attend is based off of my interview experience. That's half the reason you interview at a school, to see how well YOU like the program.

Bottom line: There's always a way to pay off debt. How you do that requires the ability to be "forward-thinking." Dental schools, including the most expensive one, won't charge more than you can intelligently handle.

Riiight, because it's perfectly reasonable to expect a general dentist to pay off half a million dollars in student debt, on top of debt they'll take on by buying or building a practice.

This process isn't as black and white as you make it out to be, sir.

 

[sweetpeeas]

Don't see why that wouldn't be a sufficient reason...

Considering there are qualified applicants out there who may not have received acceptances, I approach looking at re-applicants who have previously been accepted but declined with a more skeptical lens, both for ethical and financial reasons. Whatever the reason to have declined would be also reveals a lot about the applicant's priorities. People sometimes forget dental school is a business, and they don't want to accept students who would be at risk of bailing on them mid-way through their DDS/DMD program simply because the fear of increasing debt begins to set in. Answering yes to that question is not an automatic red flag, if the re-applicant had a very special circumstance beyond his/her control to have declined an acceptance in previous cycle(s), but truth of the matter is very few re-applicants do.

I think @Illumident captured my concerns perfectly. From an admins standpoint, I believe their train of thought would go something like this for reapplicants (who have been previously accepted): "if you really wanted to be a dentist, and you got into a school, why didn't you go? Why would you apply to schools that you had no intention of going?"

 

[Incis0r]

I called the school recently to ask about turning down my private school offer this year and reapplying. After marveling over my updated DAT scores, they said "If you choose to apply again, you'll be VERY competitive." They said to call if I reapply and they'd make a special note on my app. Another neighboring state school basically guaranteed me an interview.

Here is my recommendation- e-mail the two state schools, and get what you just told us in writing. Ask them to comment on the competitiveness of your application and to confirm that re-applying due to financial considerations will NOT be held against you.

This way, if in the future, anyone bothers you about this, you can tell them that admissions officers (who are the ultimate authority in dental admissions) advised you that it was all right.

If you get that, AND if you can find something productive to do (which I'm sure you can- you seem like a smart, hardworking person), then I recommend reapplying.

Everyone's priorities are different, which is why I think you are getting some of the "Go to the expensive school" responses on here. I believe you have a higher risk tolerance (not a bad thing) than many people posting on here, and I believe cost matters more to you than becoming a dentist at any price (again, perfectly legitimate).

Worst case scenario- they refuse to put it in writing and you go to dental school this year.
Best case scenario- they put it in writing and further assuage your nerves, and you can go into next cycle confident about your chances.

Best of luck!

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Here is my recommendation- e-mail the two state schools, and get what you just told us in writing. Ask them to comment on the competitiveness of your application and to confirm that re-applying due to financial considerations will NOT be held against you.

This way, if in the future, anyone bothers you about this, you can tell them that admissions officers (who are the ultimate authority in dental admissions) advised you that it was all right.

If you get that, AND if you can find something productive to do (which I'm sure you can- you seem like a smart, hardworking person), then I recommend reapplying.

Everyone's priorities are different, which is why I think you are getting some of the "Go to the expensive school" responses on here. I believe you have a higher risk tolerance (not a bad thing) than many people posting on here, and I believe cost matters more to you than becoming a dentist at any price (again, perfectly legitimate).

Worst case scenario- they refuse to put it in writing and you go to dental school this year.
Best case scenario- they put it in writing and further assuage your nerves, and you can go into next cycle confident about your chances.

Best of luck!

are you going to apply this cycle?

fyi, the people who pick up the phone are likely admission counselors who don't have the ultimate authority (heck they don't even participate in admission process, they just read off what they are trained to respond). I doubt he can talk to people who have ultimate authority (and then, he can only talk to one and the decision comes from the board of multiple people). Plus, no one with full authority has low intelligence enough to basically put in writing they consider you super competitive and will favor you when he/she doesnt even know how the 2016-2017 applicant pool looks like.

plus, he doesnt owe the schools anything and they dont owe him anything. why do they have to put anything in writing for him? this is like asking a house seller to sign the agreement to sell to house to you when he/she is not even sure you can offer the highest bid for the house compared to other potential buys. This again, does not make sense for the house seller and only does so for the selfish purpose of that particular home buyer.

He is looking to go to the cheapest school possible and that cheapest school is also looking for the applicants that will increase the school's overall reputation (which a lot of applicants can do, but only a few are accepted). Just because he comes to them with I got into a private school only and will turn it down to apply to your school, the school should give him supreme priority? I dont think that is how this works.

what you suggest the OP to do is very impractical.

who says you will get into your state school? OP, what if you dont get into your state school and private again?.......considering how few seats there are at state schools.

 

[Incis0r]

are you going to apply this cycle?

fyi, the people who pick up the phone are likely admission counselors who don't have the ultimate authority (heck they don't even participate in admission process, they just read off what they are trained to respond). I doubt he can talk to people who have ultimate authority (and then, he can only talk to one and the decision comes from the board of multiple people). Plus, no one with full authority has low intelligence enough to basically put in writing they consider you super competitive and will favor you when he/she doesnt even know how the 2016-2017 applicant pool looks like.

plus, he doesnt owe the schools anything and they dont owe him anything. why do they have to put anything in writing for him? this is like asking a house seller to sign the agreement to sell to house to you when he/she is not even sure you can offer the highest bid for the house compared to other potential buys. This again, does not make sense for the house seller and only does so for the selfish purpose of that particular home buyer.

He is looking to go to the cheapest school possible and that cheapest school is also looking for the applicants that will increase the school's overall reputation (which a lot of applicants can do, but only a few are accepted). Just because he comes to them with I got into a private school only and will turn it down to apply to your school, the school should give him supreme priority? I dont think that is how this works.

what you suggest the OP to do is very impractical.

who says you will get into your state school? OP, what if you dont get into your state school and private again?.......considering how few seats there are at state schools.

You may very well be correct that my plan is impractical & will fail. In fact, even I'm not certain that it will work. That is precisely why I wrote the following for OP at the bottom of my original post:

Worst case scenario- they refuse to put it in writing and you go to dental school this year.

Best case scenario- they put it in writing and further assuage your nerves, and you can go into next cycle confident about your chances.

It'll require very little effort of the OP to try what I suggested, and the potential rewards are significant. If what I suggested fails, he loses nothing. If what I suggested works, he gains a lot.

 

[JLT223]

"why would you interview applicants that you may not accept, then?"

Because they can.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Because they can.

because I have the dough to apply to schools I don't want to go

 

[Frychicken]

Don't forget: the AADSAS app will ask if you have been accepted to a professional/dental school before, and you have to 1) say yes and 2) explain why you didn't go. I am sure you will come up with a better reason than "the school I was accepted to was too expensive."

That honestly sounds perfectly reasonable to me. "I didn't want to cough up for a 450k+ dental school education that would cripple my life for years to come."

 

[Incis0r]

That honestly sounds perfectly reasonable to me. "I didn't want to cough up for a 450k+ dental school education that would cripple my life for years to come."

Yeah I don't know why this isn't seen as a reasonable point.

 

[BeaverLover]

Yeah I don't know why this isn't seen as a reasonable point.

I couldn't agree more. Someone above mentioned it being academic suicide if you don't take an acceptance....well I view 450k+ in debt as financial suicide lol

 

[pgex2t]

Uwah...opinion threads always end up like this @@

Objective: Dental schools accept applicants in order of most qualified to least qualified (from their own criteria). For some of them, turning down an acceptance may factor into this just as having a bomb personal statement or a great interview can. As admissions committees are bodies of people and not just one individual, anything besides a decision of deferred acceptance is not binding. Should you not get in the following year, you can be assured you'll see the same message anyone else not accepted sees- [there were more qualified applicants]. Nobody on this forum has the exact statistics of the number of people that do this or their success rates.

Subjective: From my own observations, those who attempt this are generally not successful in receiving the same number of interviews or acceptances the few following years. Additionally, the school they end up in is generally not that much cheaper (if at all). Those I personally know who have done this regret their decisions (but not so much it weighs over them daily). I view most decisions in a risk assessment sort-of-way. For me, the potential risks and unknown factors of attempting this outweigh the possible windfall.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

Uwah...opinion threads always end up like this @@

Objective: Dental schools accept applicants in order of most qualified to least qualified (from their own criteria). For some of them, turning down an acceptance may factor into this just as having a bomb personal statement or a great interview can. As admissions committees are bodies of people and not just one individual, anything besides a decision of deferred acceptance is not binding. Should you not get in the following year, you can be assured you'll see the same message anyone else not accepted sees- [there were more qualified applicants]. Nobody on this forum has the exact statistics of the number of people that do this or their success rates.

Subjective: From my own observations, those who attempt this are generally not successful in receiving the same number of interviews or acceptances the few following years. Additionally, the school they end up in is generally not that much cheaper (if at all). Those I personally know who have done this regret their decisions (but not so much it weighs over them daily). I view most decisions in a risk assessment sort-of-way. For me, the potential risks and unknown factors of attempting this outweigh the possible windfall.

probably because the person who gets in a super expensive private school have competitive stats but not that competitive to get into state schools. and spending just a few months between 2 consecutive cycles to reapply does not improve this stats. Thus, this will yield the same result.

this is why I agree with your subjective opinion.

 

[JLT223]

probably because the person who gets in a super expensive private school have competitive stats but not that competitive to get into state schools

That's a really broad generalization.

 

[schmoob]

It is not necessarily financial suicide. Dentistry has LOTS of options.

There are plenty of NYU and USC grads who have/will make good financial choices to secure a considerable revenue; enough to pay off their debt and live the dream.

Going to a cheaper state school is obviously preferable, but who's to say that every single one of those grads will be more financially stable than the ones who went to the expensive schools? Their payments may be lower, but how about the ones making less money? Their debt to income ratio may not look as good as the NYU and USC grads.

Bottom line is, if you have to go expensive, do it. But have a plan in place to pay it off as quickly as possible and get ahead of your peers with sound financial choices that set you up for success.

 

[Incis0r]

I think this article provides some pretty good projections for what the financial scenario looks like for a 28 year old graduating with $337,000 debt.

 

[CardstonBYU]

First of all, unless you get instate tuition at a public school there isn't going to be a dental school that will keep you out of massive debt. (Still big debt just not massive debt). Even if someone happened to get into a cheaper dental school they wanted the following year what advantage will that really be? Lets say you magically get into a school that will keep you 150k less out of debt. How much money do you think you lost from missing a year of work? At least that much. Then it compounds because by year two your wage goes up significantly. So in my opinion unless you get into Texas it's not worth reapplying.

On the other hand, if there are other reasons you are reapplying that's up to you. I have heard people say it's suicide to reapply after receiving an acceptance, but when I have called admissions at the school of my choice and talked to them about it, they say they have no way of knowing who has been accepted and who has not. I'm guessing if you have to state it in the ADEA application then the admissions committee will probably see it so I don't know if the admissions counselor I talked to knew what she was talking about.

 

[CardstonBYU]

P.s. My brother-in-law was 400k in debt when he graduated dental school and could have paid it off in 3 years but instead he bought a 3 Million dollar house. Dental school is an investment that pays off.

 

[schmoob]

P.s. My brother-in-law was 400k in debt when he graduated dental school and could have paid it off in 3 years but instead he bought a 3 Million dollar house. Dental school is an investment that pays off.

Nice!
Was he able to afford furniture?

You had me at dental school is an investment.
You lost me when you advocated buying a $3M house instead of paying off debt. So tell me, with your BIL'S current debt of $3.5M+ (because we all know that if he paid that much for a house, chances are he isn't driving a Saturn, or clipping coupons), what do you think his financial outlook will be in 10 years?
Wow. The mortgage on that can't be less than $20K a month, plus $5k a month in student loans. He will need to gross $400K just to get by at bare minimum. Are you telling me that's how much he makes 3 years out?

 

[JLT223]

he bought a 3 Million dollar house.

Sameeeeeee

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

He may not be driving a Saturn, but your brother in law has testicles the size of Saturn.

you can just say he has balls for it. haha

1% property tax on a 3 mil home is 30k$ a year (average out ~2.5k$ a month) and 1% property tax is low.

I think the User above is just messing around lol.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.