F.a.a.o.

[drbizzaro]

does anyone in this forum have any experience with obtaining an FAAO?

if we obtain an FAAO via the requirements listed (the papers,etc), and we end up only paying the membership fee once, will we loose the right to list the FAAO after our name?

in other words, if after obtaining the FAAO, we dont wish to pay the yearly fee, what implications will that have on the FAAO letters after your name?

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[drbizzaro]

Well I doubt you can use those letters legitimately without paying. I'm sure paying their 'fee' is just as important as their other requirements (if not more so) to them.

in that case, it doesn't seem too worth it at all... especially if you have to pay 500 bucks a year to maintain it

 

[qwopty99]

fonz is "probably" right, but u should confirm first, right?

not sure if anyone here would know. the people who use FAAO seem to all be older ODs.

 

[Opii]

does anyone in this forum have any experience with obtaining an FAAO?

if we obtain an FAAO via the requirements listed (the papers,etc), and we end up only paying the membership fee once, will we loose the right to list the FAAO after our name?

in other words, if after obtaining the FAAO, we dont wish to pay the yearly fee, what implications will that have on the FAAO letters after your name?

You can ask IndianaOD. He is a FAAO, or a FCOVD from what I deduce (Chances are FAAO, its much easier to get than FCOVD). Either way the same question would apply, on the one hand, if you earned your Fellowship I don't think anyone can take it away from you. But that's a good question.

Not all Fellows are older. I can think of one FAAO who got it one year out of his residency. You just have to have the "right support from the right people," to pull that off.

 

[xmattODx]

Not all Fellows are older. I can think of one FAAO who got it one year out of his residency. You just have to have the "right support from the right people," to pull that off.

Actually it isn't that difficult to get FAAO following residency. To become FAAO you simply need to collect 50 points. You get points for doing a residency. You get points for poster presentations and/or published papers which most residents are required to do anyway. So upon completion of a residency you will have most/all necessary points and you just need to do the exam. Not surprisingly a lot of residents are becoming FAAO soon after the completion of their residency.

 

[qwopty99]

anyone know how hard the exam is?

 

[Opii]

Actually it isn't that difficult to get FAAO following residency. To become FAAO you simply need to collect 50 points. You get points for doing a residency. You get points for poster presentations and/or published papers which most residents are required to do anyway. So upon completion of a residency you will have most/all necessary points and you just need to do the exam. Not surprisingly a lot of residents are becoming FAAO soon after the completion of their residency.

Yep, and only the residency by itself is 10 points already. Add your requirements for the year and you already have 1/2 the total of points done. The other 1/2 depends on your "support." You have to continue publishing a couple of articles after that. If you are in an academic setting, or you are in with a club say COVD, they will help you get those papers published. Just being a good writer alone won't do, I'm sure articles get rejected left and right if you aren't "in." You have to have a support of sort, teaming up with a Fellow who has done well in that branch of optometry is also a good idea, teaming up with an ophthalmologist who already publishes and does reseach, an academic setting... just working at wallmart won't do. It might take longer (unfortunatly, it's about image again, not always quality of the individual). A friend of mine who has only been in a commercial setting took her 10 years to get published finally.

I've heard the exam depends on how good of an oral speaker you are on the subject matter. Say if your topic of interest is in binocular vision, the panel drills you on the subject matter in a Q&A type of interview. If you can tackle them, handle the ones who are playing devil's advocate, you should come out okay.

14_of_Spades, you could be a good candidate, if you are in an academic setting where you're speaking/teaching students, it should already come naturally. And they will be more likely to take you seriously to publish if you are a current employee of the school.

 

[xmattODx]

Residency can be worth up to 20 points.

You do not need to publish anything. You can gain points from writing case reports that are submitted to no-one but the Academy. You can also do poster presentations or Academy lectures.

The only person you need to know is another Fellow so that they can be your "proposer". This is the only difficulty I have had with the process. It is difficult to know fellows when you're not heavily involved in optometry.

 

[Opii]

Residency can be worth up to 20 points.

You do not need to publish anything. You can gain points from writing case reports that are submitted to no-one but the Academy. You can also do poster presentations or Academy lectures.

The only person you need to know is another Fellow so that they can be your "proposer". This is the only difficulty I have had with the process. It is difficult to know fellows when you're not heavily involved in optometry.

Yep, you're in a difficult location to mingle with fellows right now. On the other hand I'm sure you have seen some interesting things you could write about at your location. hmmm, tough one.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Residency can be worth up to 20 points.

You do not need to publish anything. You can gain points from writing case reports that are submitted to no-one but the Academy. You can also do poster presentations or Academy lectures.

The only person you need to know is another Fellow so that they can be your "proposer". This is the only difficulty I have had with the process. It is difficult to know fellows when you're not heavily involved in optometry.

If you contact the Academy and tell them you want to become a fellow they will connect you with someone to help you do it. It is not difficult at all to become a fellow anymore. In past you had to be practicing for at least 3 years and submit 5 cases, but it changed about the time I graduated to the 50 point system. You get 20 points for residency, 10 points for publishing, 10 points for presenting a poster at a national meeting, and 10 points for a case report submitted to the Academy. After residency, I submitted 3 case reports (one that I had already published for my residency) and sat for the "exam". A 3 doctor panel asked me questions about my case. Since they had never heard of the disease in my residency required case, they focused on the other 2, and even then they asked stupid questions. Anyway, you find out within 20 minutes if you were accepted. I don't know anyone that made it to the interview stage and got rejected.

 

[xmattODx]

Yep, you're in a difficult location to mingle with fellows right now. On the other hand I'm sure you have seen some interesting things you could write about at your location. hmmm, tough one.

Thanks, I won't write about my time here as I have two papers in the review stage for a couple of different journals.

If you contact the Academy and tell them you want to become a fellow they will connect you with someone to help you do it. It is not difficult at all to become a fellow anymore.

Thanks. After some searching I found someone a month ago or so. The difficulty is that I have to wait a few more weeks to see if I can apply as a clinical candidate (I haven't seen a patient in 6 months and if the stars align won't for another 12). If the stars don't align I'll be seeing patients again so I'll be a clinical candidate.

It does seem a little too easy to get FAAO now. I'm not sure what I think about ODs just out of residency being able to be "fellows" of something.

 

[IndianaOD]

Most of the above information is correct. Residency = 20 points (if its an accredited residency). Posters or papers that are presented at a national convention and have a published abstract are 10 points each. However, 10 points must be in the form of an in-depth case report. I think it is easier for residents because usually they serve at a secondary eye care setting. Thus they get more interesting cases and have a lot of resources at their disposal.

Getting posters or papers accepted is not a trivial matter. I think the AAOpt is important in that it encourages ODs to be more involved in education and research.

If you really want to go the more difficult route after the FAAO you can become a diplomate in a specific section.

 

[Elfego Baca]

does anyone in this forum have any experience with obtaining an FAAO?

if we obtain an FAAO via the requirements listed (the papers,etc), and we end up only paying the membership fee once, will we loose the right to list the FAAO after our name?

in other words, if after obtaining the FAAO, we dont wish to pay the yearly fee, what implications will that have on the FAAO letters after your name?

Yes, you lose the right to use the FAAO designation if you don't pay the yearly membership fee, because you're no longer a Fellow. The yearly fee is not $500 -- it's in the 300's. It's WAY cheaper than what you'll pay to be in the AOA, and you get a significant discount on registration for the annual AAO meeting. If you're too cheap to pony up the yearly membership fee, then you're probably too cheap to go to the meeting, and probably shouldn't bother joining the AAO. You'll get more out of being a FAAO if you actually participate in the organization, rather than using the designation as resume filler.

 

[drbizzaro]

Yes, you lose the right to use the FAAO designation if you don't pay the yearly membership fee, because you're no longer a Fellow. The yearly fee is not $500 -- it's in the 300's. It's WAY cheaper than what you'll pay to be in the AOA, and you get a significant discount on registration for the annual AAO meeting. If you're too cheap to pony up the yearly membership fee, then you're probably too cheap to go to the meeting, and probably shouldn't bother joining the AAO. You'll get more out of being a FAAO if you actually participate in the organization, rather than using the designation as resume filler.

ok, that answers my questions... thanks for the explanation...

 

[qwopty99]

from the AAO website, some links:

Earning Fellowship:
http://www.aaopt.org/becoming/efellowship/index.asp

Clinical Candidate Point System (PDF)
http://www.aaopt.org/content/docs/032406%20Clinical Candidate Point System Handout.pdf

it is kinda ironic that some have mentioned getting FAAO is too "easy". i'm told that back in the day (probably ~30 years ago), having FAAO was merely a matter of paying for membership and getting the Academy Journal (now called Optometry and Vision Science) subscription. between that time, and the current 50-point system, was getting fellowship "harder"?

As a summary of eligibility guidelines
50 points are required:

1. Case Reports
- 10 points each, no limit to # of reports submitted.

2. Publications
- 10 points each
- must be to "peer-reviewed" journals, and lists a number of publications that are considered peer-reviewed as examples.

3. Poster and Papers
- 10 points each
- must be presented at a scientific meeting e.g. FAAO, ARVO

4. Academy Lecture
- 10 points each
- this is if you present at some kind of Academy meeting (not sure how this is different from the FAAO meeting)

5. Residency or Graduate Degree
- 20 points each/max
- residency, or M.S., PhD. MPH etc. related to vision science.

6. Leadership
- 10 points each/max
- for leadership at the national or state levels in optometry

7. Publishing a Book
- 20 points each/max

 

[qwopty99]

as for my little editorial on the topic...

i think the standards for FAAO are reasonable. agreed, if you do a residency, it pretty much trivializes the process since the residency itself gives you 20 points, and you have a high likelihood as a resident to publish a paper, get an interesting case, and present at a conference (just to clear any confusion, you don't have to do EACH of these, you can "merely" submit 5 case reports and nothing else).

if you never did a residency, don't really have any academic connections, and have simply been in private practice for 10 years, then getting FAAO becomes a slightly arduous task. most people have no experience with publishing, which is essentially what the case-report write-ups are, as i'm told. if you're practicing in an urban setting, the number of really "unique cases" you encounter is quite low. if you're in commercial, even less likely.

as for the publishing requirement, i find their comments in the "peer-reviewed" journals section very open to debate. they list a number of journals - so in a sense, they are establishing those journals as the gold-standards you can submit to). the list is:

American Journal of Ophthalmology
Archives of Ophthalmology
Canadian Journal of Optometry
Clinical & Experimental Opotmetry
Clinical Eye & Vision Optometry Clinic
Contact Lens Spectrum
ICLC
Journal of the BCLA
Ophthalmic & Physiological Optics
Optometry
Optometry and Vision Science
Review of Optometry
Southern Journal of Optometry

i don't know how they came up with this list. it's just weird.

first of all, in the instructions, they put in bold that the journals must be "peer-reviewed". the Canadian Journal of Optometry is not peer-reviewed. not in any sense of the word. so i think its on the list just for political reasons (can't offend 'em canadians). ironically, Canada DOES have a journal that is peer-reviewed (called Clinical & Refractive Optometry - its articles are good for COPE credit) which is not on the list.

the FAAO apparently accepts ophthalmology journals. why did they choose those two? (archives and American) the ARVO journal (called IOVS) isn't listed there, but they refer to ARVO (the conference) elsewhere in the instructions. you'd think if they were to choose only two ophthalmology journals, they'd choose IOVS and Ophthalmology, which are viewed as the top two journals in ophthalmology to begin with.

the Journal of the BCLA is known as Contact Lens & Anterior Eye (it took me a while to figure that out). CLAE is a good solid optometry journal.

i don't think the Southern Journal has existed at any time this millennium.

i've never even heard of Clinical Eye & Vision Optometry Clinic or seen ICLC.

as for Rev Optom, though the quality of articles can be quite good, the authors are paid and are on staff and therefore the "journal" is not peer reviewed. in fact, it's not a journal, it's technically a magazine. the same (i think) can be said for contact lens spectrum, though i'm not 100% sure.

as for the other journals on the list, they are unimpeachable.

Optometry (US national journal)
Optometry & Vision Science (FAAO)
Clinical & Experimental Optometry (Australia, NZ, HK national journal)
Ophthalmic and Physiological Optics (British national journal)

 

[qwopty99]

ok. so enough with criticism. i'll try some recommendations. if i had to choose 13 journals that should be specifically identified by the AAO as being "major" journals they'll accept articles from, i'd try to get journals that were most broadly influential/representative of optometry and the field of vision science. i'd go with:

start with the 5 bread-and-butter optom journals:
Optometry
OVS
Clin Exp Optom
OPO
CLAE

3 MD journals
Ophthalmology (US MD scientific academy journal - though this journal would have politcal undertones even if its content does not)
IOVS (ARVO journal)
Eye and Contact Lens (US MD contact lens journal. ODs publish in this journal A LOT. and its relevant to optometry).

the remaining 5 optom journals - this gets challenging. reputations of journals have changed a lot with the advent of the internet. things that were highly read before may not be highly read now. falling into this category are: Journal of Behavioural Optometry, COVD journal, ASCO journal (Optometric Education) etc. Most optom societies publish journals. but, things to consider would be:

JVIB: journal of vision impairment & blindness - very high quality and tough to publish in this journal (isn't it nuts that this isn't on the FAAO list??)

politics aside, CJO (canadian journal optom) doesn't belong. some entire issues don't even have any clinical in it at all cause no one sends them anything. they could consider replacing it with CRO (clin refract optom) because its actually peer-reviewed.

CL spectrum has good articles. but if they accept CLspectrum, and RevOptom, they really should remove mention of "peer review" as a requirement. you can't demand "peer review" then accept RevOptom - it doesn't make sense. its a magazine. and if you're going to accept RevOptom, why not Optometric Management?

they *could* consider broadening the scope of optometry a bit, and mention one or two leading medical journals e.g. NEJM or JAMA. afterall, we aren't trying to pigeonhole ourselves as being knowledgeable "only" in the eye.

of course, the list would ultimately be prefaced that you have to publish in these or similar journals. such journals would include:

Eye
Cornea
Retina
British Journal of Ophthalmology
Journal of Vision
Vision Research

 

[hfpepperbean47]

Experimental Eye Research is an OK eye related basic science journal.

 

[Opii]

... (I haven't seen a patient in 6 months and if the stars align won't for another 12). If the stars don't align I'll be seeing patients again so I'll be a clinical candidate.

If you go 1 1/2 years out of clinic don't you fear getting a bit rusty with your clinical skills? I wonder how quickly one picks it up again?

It does seem a little too easy to get FAAO now. I'm not sure what I think about ODs just out of residency being able to be "fellows" of something.

I had similar thoughts.


Another thought, do residencies who accept students who didn't pass the boards also worth 20 points just the same as the difficult residencies? It's kind of not fair to those who did the Bascom Palmer type of residencies.

 

[Opii]

.... As a summary of eligibility guidelines ...

Nice Summary!

 

[xmattODx]

If you go 1 1/2 years out of clinic don't you fear getting a bit rusty with your clinical skills? I wonder how quickly one picks it up again?

My goal in life is to never see another patient. If one could be an optometrist without the patients... that would be the life.

Clinical skills. It's like riding a bike. No biggie.

Another thought, do residencies who accept students who didn't pass the boards also worth 20 points just the same as the difficult residencies? It's kind of not fair to those who did the Bascom Palmer type of residencies.

I didn't know that there were any residencies available that didn't require passing scores on boards. It does say that residencies are worth UP TO 20 points so perhaps they rank the difficulty? I really don't know.

 

[Opii]

My goal in life is to never see another patient. If one could be an optometrist without the patients... that would be the life.

That is so funny! Because I say exactly the opposite! "I LOVE the patients but its my collegues I could do without!" (This can give me away, I'm always saying this and optometry is a small world)... but I love you guys of course... That's freaky, that's really freaky...

I didn't know that there were any residencies available that didn't require passing scores on boards. It does say that residencies are worth UP TO 20 points so perhaps they rank the difficulty? I really don't know.

Yes... Truman VA (UMSL), Bedford VA (NECO), Newington VA (NECO), Roseburg VA (PUCO)... Just to name a few... I'll be nice and stop the list here... Shameful isn't it? The very same residencies that reject people who have passed the boards/or licensed ODs... I know too much dirt in this profession to like my collegues, but I do love my patients.

I think the way it works is that they give you 20 points regardless of the residency, then later they give you 49.9 points and not a 0.1 point more so the candidate doesn't get his fellowship.... uhhhmmm ooopps wrong thread, I'm tired, I gotta go bedibye.

 

[IndianaOD]

That is so funny! Because I say exactly the opposite! "I LOVE the patients but its my collegues I could do without!" (This can give me away, I'm always saying this and optometry is a small world)... but I love you guys of course... That's freaky, that's really freaky...



Yes... Truman VA (UMSL), Bedford VA (NECO), Newington VA (NECO), Roseburg VA (PUCO)... Just to name a few... I'll be nice and stop the list here... Shameful isn't it? The very same residencies that reject people who have passed the boards/or licensed ODs... I know too much dirt in this profession to like my collegues, but I do love my patients.

I think the way it works is that they give you 20 points regardless of the residency, then later they give you 49.9 points and not a 0.1 point more so the candidate doesn't get his fellowship.... uhhhmmm ooopps wrong thread, I'm tired, I gotta go bedibye.

I don't see how that would be possible. They would be practicing optometry without a license. You are SURE you don't have to pass the boards? I'm pretty skeptical about that.

 

[Opii]

I don't see how that would be possible. They would be practicing optometry without a license. You are SURE you don't have to pass the boards? I'm pretty skeptical about that.

Yes it is true. I am positive. Most schools do it to some extent but some are shameless about it. NECO is at the top of my list. Call Dr. Hoffman and verify with him if you must. I've known about this for years. It makes me sick to see some of my friends ahead of me who have had average GPAs, licensed or with the 3 boards get REJECTED and some cute bimbo from ICO get a shot at a NECO VA residency. It is sick.

But we are getting off the topic of the original thread.

 

[IndianaOD]

Yes it is true. I am positive. Most schools do it to some extent but some are shameless about it. NECO is at the top of my list. Call Dr. Hoffman and verify with him if you must. I've known about this for years. It makes me sick to see some of my friends ahead of me who have had average GPAs, licensed or with the 3 boards get REJECTED and some cute bimbo from ICO get a shot at a NECO VA residency. It is sick.

But we are getting off the topic of the original thread.

At IU, the positions all have this posted:
[FONT=geneva, arial, sans-serif]

• OD degree from an accredited school or college of optometry
• Competitive GPA
• Indiana optometry license

.

That is crazy and scary.

 

[drbizzaro]

my friends ahead of me who have had average GPAs, licensed or with the 3 boards get REJECTED and some cute bimbo from ICO get a shot at a NECO VA residency. It is sick. .

it's true... i've visited ico before and they have some very very nice cute bimbos!

i was talking to a few of the guys at that school, and they love the fact that the girls love to flaunt... but this obviously changes from year to year

unfortunately a lot of the people in the higher positions are base decisions on how sexual a girl looks...

 

[hfpepperbean47]

it's true... i've visited ico before and they have some very very nice cute bimbos!

i was talking to a few of the guys at that school, and they love the fact that the girls love to flaunt... but this obviously changes from year to year

unfortunately a lot of the people in the higher positions are base decisions on how sexual a girl looks...

That's it, I will be flashing a little chest hair along the way will help me get a leg up on all the others

 

[Opii]

At IU, the positions all have this posted:
[FONT=geneva, arial, sans-serif]

• OD degree from an accredited school or college of optometry
• Competitive GPA
• Indiana optometry license

.

That is crazy and scary.

It just saddens me. That's why I'm such an anonymous antisocial, because things in our profession sadden me, I don't speak about personal experiences (my 2 point story is about as bad as it gets, mild in comparison) but things that I have observed and deduced that aren't merley rumors.

 

[Opii]

it's true... i've visited ico before and they have some very very nice cute bimbos!

i was talking to a few of the guys at that school, and they love the fact that the girls love to flaunt... but this obviously changes from year to year

unfortunately a lot of the people in the higher positions are base decisions on how sexual a girl looks...

Since I think you are from ICO, think back 2 years, I think you know which bimbo I'm talking about.... I just shake my head in shame.

Let's see...one year out of NECO's Recidency and one year out... yep, she must be a FAAO by now

 

[Opii]

That's it, I will be flashing a little chest hair along the way will help me get a leg up on all the others

Don't you mean your little chest feathers?

 

[dmd2b2008]

If you need a proposer, just PM me. My wife is a fellow & i'm sure she would help any of you out with getting in. She is extremely nice & definitely doesnt believe in the whole idea of being exclusive when it comes to trying to better yourself or educate yourself further in your profession. She did it & works like a dog so Im sure you all can do it too! Like I said if you need help or pointers, just PM me and I will pass your info along to her. Hope this helps...