F30 score

[jockeydavid]

I applied for F30 fellowship a couple of months ago and just got an update. Priority score: 25. Any thoughts?😕😕

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[K31]

Talk to your program officer--they're the ones who have the best idea about what is a fundable score.

 

[solitude]

I applied for F30 fellowship a couple of months ago and just got an update. Priority score: 25. Any thoughts?😕😕

depends. I know somebody who scored 33 and got funded first shot. Somebody else got an 18 and the cutoff for his institute was 15. Obviously, it depends a lot on the institute's cutoff line. Like somebody else said, just ask what the cutoff will be. 50-50 chance you'll have to resubmit.

 

[beebe00]

Talk to your program officer--they're the ones who have the best idea about what is a fundable score.

I spoke with my PO and was told that I am in the "upper half" of scores given by my study section this round. For fellowship applications, are there unscored applications as well? (I've read that usually only the top half receive a impact score). Am I right to interpret this to mean that I am in the top 25% of all applications?

Thanks! 🙂

 

[Fencer]

As a former F30 reviewer, first, congratulations... Either you will be funded or will be likely in a position of re-submitting an improved application. As indicated previously, it truly depends upon the institute who is funding you. There are some institutes who fund over 50% of their applicants, but most are below that. On average, a F30 application that is submitted has a 40% of being funded after the 2 submissions (A-0 and A-1) that are allowed. I currently got 2 students with 21's (both) and 1 with a 30. The two 21's are pretty much going to be funded, one of them is a top 5% for that study section. The one with a 30 might still get funded because of the institute that picked up the application. Time will tell... Don't call the PO as he/she already responded to you. Give them time... Know when your Council will meet. Until 2 weeks after Council meets, then shoot another email asking for an update.

 

[beebe00]

Fencer, thanks for your quick reply! I was hoping you might have some input! 🙂 Your insight is really helpful to me (and also uplifting haha). I did not contact the PO again because I figured I would start to get annoying... thank goodness for SDN!

I'm waiting for my summary but I'm actually planning to resubmit (if I can address the comments) to the April deadline anyways, just in case.... because the Council won't meet until after that deadline.

 

[Fencer]

If you want, you can resubmit prior to Council BUT AFTER carefully reading and addressing the comments from the reviewers. In the past, after receiving my stack of F30/31 to review, every so often, on that was funded from the prior cycle was taken off my assigned grants. However, if there is something that tick reviewers a lot is not been responsive to criticism from a prior submission, particularly, for the reviewer who made that criticism. It can make your score considerably worse. It is safer to skip one cycle. Nevertheless, you should be cautiosly optimistic!

 

[beebe00]

I was told I'll get the summary in 2-3 weeks which is great.. and I hope that it will give me enough time to address the comments. Thanks again for your insight, Fencer! 🙂

 

[britishmafia]

I also just received my impact score through my institute. However, the institute doesn't have a payline. Is there anywhere to find statistics on previously-funded impact scores or percentiles by institute?

 

[Fencer]

I also just received my impact score through my institute. However, the institute doesn't have a payline. Is there anywhere to find statistics on previously-funded impact scores or percentiles by institute? Mine is the NIDCD, fyi.

I contacted the PO but am awaiting a response.

Check this:
http://report.nih.gov/DisplayRePORT.aspx?rid=550

 

[britishmafia]

Check this:
http://report.nih.gov/DisplayRePORT.aspx?rid=550

Yeah, I've seen that. I guess my question was more on whether average funded impact scores were ever published by institute, independent of paylines.

 

[britishmafia]

Any idea on the fundability of an impact score of 22 for an F30?
I imagine it varies by institute, and mine doesn't publish paylines.

 

[Watson104]

Any idea on the fundability of an impact score of 22 for an F30?
I imagine it varies by institute, and mine doesn't publish paylines.

Nope. What institute? Some paylines are 15, some are 25. The best thing to do is talk to your program officer. That said, given the sequestration and such, you probably wont know until after the budget meeting. I can imagine this cutback will shift paylines further down.

 

[Fencer]

Any idea on the fundability of an impact score of 22 for an F30?

Impact score is different than percentile. An impact score of 22 (range: 10 - 90) in my old study section would have been a top 10% application, whereas in another study section from a different institute, it would mean a percentile of 15-20%. Nevertheless, the likelihood of funding with a 22 is extremely high. Bordeline fundable scores are those in the 28-32 range which depend upon the institute. Congrats!

Paylines at the impact score of 15 are only for R-01s. I never seen those for individual training grants (F or K series).

 

[mrsanator]

Impact score is different than percentile. An impact score of 22 (range: 10 - 90) in my old study section would have been a top 10% application, whereas in another study section from a different institute, it would mean a percentile of 15-20%. Nevertheless, the likelihood of funding with a 22 is extremely high. Bordeline fundable scores are those in the 28-32 range which depend upon the institute. Congrats!

Paylines at the impact score of 15 are only for R-01s. I never seen those for individual training grants (F or K series).

Actually, NHLBI has been at 15 (impact score) for F30s for years . . .

 

[britishmafia]

This is good to hear. I'm not applying through NHLBI, luckily.
Hopefully, my PO gets back to me soon! 🙂
This is quite an opaque process but I'm glad to be going through it.

 

[Fencer]

Actually, NHLBI has been at 15 (impact score) for F30s for years . . .

NHLBI started funding F30s until 2008. Here are the stats from the prior link I had posted:

Year - Code - Institute - Applications - Awarded - Success Rate - Total Funding
2008 - F30 - NHLBI --- 28 --- 20 --- 71.4% --- $641,047
2009 - F30 - NHLBI --- 65 --- 45 --- 69.2% --- $1,543,001
2010 - F30 - NHLBI --- 80 --- 24 --- 30.0% --- $799,759
2011 - F30 - NHLBI --- 99 --- 20 --- 20.2% --- $774,426
2012 - F30 - NHLBI --- 86 --- 17 --- 19.8% --- $616,529

The NHLBI director seem very enthusiastic at increasing the number of training awards including F30s at the recent NIH Director Advisory Committee. He gave a very nice presentation indicating needs for training clinician scientists, in particular. It is clear that the last 2 years, it has been more difficult. One aspect is that they try to distribute the funds as broadly as they can. Perhaps in the 15-20 score, the institute might include other factors...

 

[Watson104]

NHLBI started funding F30s until 2008. Here are the stats from the prior link I had posted:

Year - Code - Institute - Applications - Awarded - Success Rate - Total Funding
2008 - F30 - NHLBI --- 28 --- 20 --- 71.4% --- $641,047
2009 - F30 - NHLBI --- 65 --- 45 --- 69.2% --- $1,543,001
2010 - F30 - NHLBI --- 80 --- 24 --- 30.0% --- $799,759
2011 - F30 - NHLBI --- 99 --- 20 --- 20.2% --- $774,426
2012 - F30 - NHLBI --- 86 --- 17 --- 19.8% --- $616,529

The NHLBI director seem very enthusiastic at increasing the number of training awards including F30s at the recent NIH Director Advisory Committee. He gave a very nice presentation indicating needs for training clinician scientists, in particular. It is clear that the last 2 years, it has been more difficult. One aspect is that they try to distribute the funds as broadly as they can. Perhaps in the 15-20 score, the institute might include other factors...

Hah. I totally applied for my first F30 during the 2010 cycle - the year the payline jumped from 25 to 15. Everyone told me I was golden with my <20 score; I was not.

 

[mrsanator]

I can appreciate why NHLBI lowered their threshold - not wanting to fund so many F30s at the expense of the F31s/F32s in the face of increasing F30 application volumes is entirely reasonable as those programs are important as well. And I'm sure the NHLBI director is enthusiastic about trainees. However, as Watson104's case illustrates, the simple reality is that paylines at the impact score of 15 are not only for R01s anymore. Who knows the future, but it wouldn't be a huge surprise to see other institutes lower their thresholds from the 25-30 range to the 15-20 range as well once sequestration starts to take its toll.

Given how time-consuming F30 submissions are due to having both a research and training component, I think institutions that coerce or mandate submission of one ought to reconsider, particularly if the % success declines. While I was funded by NHLBI in the "<=15 era" on the first try (the payline was lowered after I submitted but before study section), preparing that submission consumed two months for what is now a crapshoot. Furthermore, very little of it was useful as part of my dissertation proposal or dissertation. Given I had other graduate school funding in place (offered a T32 slot through graduate department), the benefit from my submission was to the MD/PhD program, which will save $ when I return to medical school.

 

[Fencer]

Hah. I totally applied for my first F30 during the 2010 cycle - the year the payline jumped from 25 to 15. Everyone told me I was golden with my <20 score; I was not.

We got one in that cycle from them. I can't recall the priority score. Did you re-submitted with that score or were you running out of time?

 

[Fencer]

... Who knows the future, but it wouldn't be a huge surprise to see other institutes lower their thresholds from the 25-30 range to the 15-20 range as well once sequestration starts to take its toll. ...

Given how time-consuming F30 submissions are due to having both a research and training component, I think institutions that coerce or mandate submission of one ought to reconsider, particularly if the % success declines...

Furthermore, very little of it was useful as part of my dissertation proposal or dissertation. Given I had other graduate school funding in place (offered a T32 slot through graduate department), the benefit from my submission was to the MD/PhD program, which will save $ when I return to medical school.

Sequestration:
My program just received, this week, notices for one F30 and one F31. However, we received notices of award for full amount for the first 6 months. The expectation is that the will fund them as Congress proposes a budget for FY14. We also were told by a PO that a score of 30 will probably not be funded in the June Council meeting.

Grant writing:
I disagree with you regarding the policy of mandating to write a NIH grant, F30 OR F31, as part of MD/PhD training. Writing a real NIH grant is an invaluable training experience. As clinician scientists, we are measured, live or die, by writing grants and papers. In my case, both grants cost me money for several years (we supplement to reach our stipend and pay for 40% of tuition). PIs can't use their federal grants (R01, T32, P30, etc.) to do that, which defaults into the MD/PhD program. Only the F30s can help the program during MS3/4. We don't require resubmission and the grant (submitted in GS1 or early GS2) can serve as backbone for a PhD dissertation proposal (late GS2). Each of my last 10 student who submitted one grant felt that they learned a lot after submitting it. The key here is whether this grant can be the backbone or not of the dissertation proposal. That is a local administrative issue that varies between programs. Our time to graduation is 7.8 years.

 

[mrsanator]

Re: Sequestration. While interesting to see how ICs are handling the early phase of sequestration, to the best of my knowledge how ICs will address the long-term impact of a permanent cut is unknown. It's possible that some ICs will protect their NRSA portfolio at the expense of other activities, or vice versa.

Re: Whether it's worth it to write one. After spending most of my last 4 years working alongside economists, I'd argue there's no such thing as "invaluable experience" - everything has an opportunity cost. Students would likely learn even more if they ghostwrote an entire R01 for their PI (maybe much more because they wouldn't have to write so many pages of "training plan" material) but the cost/benefit ratio would likely be even more adverse.

Re: subsidizing graduate school. I suspect that every school's situation is unique, given differences in the magnitude of any stipend / tuition support provided during graduate school versus the tuition, base stipend, and insurance benefit during medical school. However, I've run the numbers, and even if my program compensated my graduate department for two years of 40% graduate school tuition and provided a generous stipend supplement during graduate school, the net benefit they would receive via the two years of 60% medical school tuition, the base stipend, and health insurance during MS3-4 is highly positive. I'd be curious to see the math nationwide, but I'd be surprised if most programs which fund tuition/stipend/insurance during MS3-4 are actually losing money when their student receives an F30 - the student is unloading a substantial portion of the obligation the program made to the student as a condition of their acceptance by bringing that much money into the medical school phase.

 

[Fencer]

Regarding your 2nd and 3rd responses, you are assuming that the F30 pays for the entire portion of the MS3 and MS4. In my experience, that has not been the case. I have seen decreases of funding particularly by not reaching MS4. In my budget, they actually offset. We also have faculty teaching at the peer-writing group who provide comments back to the students within a week. However, there is a net gain for the institution, the investigator and the student without significant economic gain for the program. The real net gain for the program is in training for students and prestige, as NIH study sections value the institutional training at that particular program.. Even if they only cost me (i.e: F31s), I think they are helpful. The concept of cost of opportunity is correct, but at this stage, the F30 or F31 (or other training grants) are the only grants that MD/PhD students would be competitive. We have a requirement of at least ONE first author publication. With your reasoning, you can also make an argument that there is a cost of opportunity for writing any papers. Why bother? just get the PhD lite and move on to complete the MD.... I am sorry but that is not my philosophy.

 

[solitude]

Regarding your 2nd and 3rd responses, you are assuming that the F30 pays for the entire portion of the MS3 and MS4. In my experience, that has not been the case. I have seen decreases of funding particularly by not reaching MS4. In my budget, they actually offset. We also have faculty teaching at the peer-writing group who provide comments back to the students within a week. However, there is a net gain for the institution, the investigator and the student without significant economic gain for the program. The real net gain for the program is in training for students and prestige, as NIH study sections value the institutional training at that particular program.. Even if they only cost me (i.e: F31s), I think they are helpful. The concept of cost of opportunity is correct, but at this stage, the F30 or F31 (or other training grants) are the only grants that MD/PhD students would be competitive. We have a requirement of at least ONE first author publication. With your reasoning, you can also make an argument that there is a cost of opportunity for writing any papers. Why bother? just get the PhD lite and move on to complete the MD.... I am sorry but that is not my philosophy.

Agree with Fencer. Of course there is an opportunity cost to everything, but if you can earn an F30, you save your program/PI ~100K. Even if you don't see any salary gain here - e.g., my program does not award a bonus for this - you still get a substantial allowance that more than makes up for the opportunity cost of 2 months time to write it (4200/yr for computer, conferences, journals, etc.). Personally, it took me about one month.

Of course, by writing one you have learned to navigate the morass that is the NIH grant process. If you intend to do basic science - even if you want to do clinical research - this will be very helpful. Science nowadays is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that were funded in grad school will make the study sections more willing to award you a K08, then with a K you will be more likely to win an R, etc. So it is nice to get in on the action at an early stage of your career.

Whether having an F30 helps you for residency apps, I cannot say. As Neuronix and others have championed here, your clinical grades and USMLE are more important. But a successful grad career certainly can't hurt, particularly if you're applying for PSTPs. Open to correction here.

 

[Watson104]

We got one in that cycle from them. I can't recall the priority score. Did you re-submitted with that score or were you running out of time?

I resubmitted with a little more than a week notice until the next deadline. The reviewers liked the grant so there wasn't much to change, and I'm certain the study section expected it to get funded. It did get funded on the 2nd round.

I think the issue that year was that the payline wasn't changed until November (bc Congress kept passing continuing resolutions and not a budget). So the study sections for the April & August submissions still thought the payline was 25 and that likely influenced scores.

 

[mrsanator]

I think it's ultimately a disagreement that's based on valuing things differently. It seems to me that you think that the training value of writing an F30/F31 exceeds the cost, even if we reach a point where they are unlikely to be funded and even among students for whom graduate school funding is already secure. I think there are circumstances (e.g., an NHLBI-level payline for a student which already has secure graduate school funding) in which the opportunity costs are too high relative to the potential benefit - that some students would be better off spending the time doing something else. There are other ways to obtain grant writing experience than writing an F30. Personally, I feel that I learned more helping a faculty member write an R21 than I did writing an F30 (even though the R21 wasn't funded).

Believing that one specific mandate is not well-considered is not inconsistent with supporting other mandates, such as >1 first authored publication. That's the minimum standard for a 1 year medical student gap year research fellowship at a nearby institution - it's a low bar that I agree all MD/PhD students ought to be reaching.

Re: the net financial impact - I can only say that contrary to what you write, I considered circumstances in which some MS4 years aren't funded by the F30, and at least at my institution under the arrangement you've outlined an F30 would still on net favor the program. I suspect that you have high graduate school tuition, are supplementing graduate school stipends extremely generously, and/or have many F31s vs. F30s - kudos to you for doing so, but I'm not convinced, in the absence of other evidence, that this notion that F30s are only a net wash for MD/PhD programs is a general result. They aren't for my program (and leadership is open about this point).

Re: Solitude and the discretionary account - sure, no question that 1 month of work for the discretionary account is worth it if you are successful and your institution isn't pulling much of it out for health insurance. However, when paylines are as low as they are at NHLBI, there are more unsuccessful than successful applications - the expected payoff prior to applying can't just calculated among successful applications. After health insurance is taken out, I lose ~50% (of course, premiums vary tremendously across institutions).

PS: Fencer, I hadn't read the comment when you mentioned mandating F30/F31 submission (under the "NIH F30 NRSA awards and Size of MD/PhD Programs" thread) when I made my comment re: programs that mandate submission. My apologies if it appeared as if I was "calling you out" - it wasn't my intention!

 

[Neuronix]

I had a funded F30, but I would agree that writing a grant shouldn't be mandatory. The benefits for me personally was some electronic equipment, two conferences, books for third/fourth year, and Step 2 and Step 3 review books and USMLEWorld. Like mrsantor is saying, I received no salary supplement, and they took my health insurance out of the discretionary grant funding, which didn't leave me with a lot of money. Exactly what you're allowed to pay for out of the grant discretionary funding is very institution specific.

I don't think the grant mattered at all when applying to residency. Now that I'm in residency thinking about doing a serious year-long research project, there is essentially no individual funding I can apply for. I suspect that if I stay on a research track, that my earlier experience/funding will mean next to nothing when I apply for funding later. It was frustrating being borderline on score the first time, having my score not come back in time for the first repeat submission deadline, paperwork/bureaucratic headaches surrounding the process, and then finally getting the grant just as I finished graduate school. I can see why writing grants is almost a full time job for the PI! It must be incredibly stressful keeping that support flowing to support a lab. If anything, it might almost be better to avoid dealing with the NIH as a graduate student, and be naive about this whole process to avoid the burnout leading to private practice

It makes more sense to submit a grant if paylines are decent and you have a clear institute to which to submit your grant. For a few years, the F30 was supported by a minority of institutes. A friend of mine's closest related institute didn't support his grant type. So he submitted an F30 to the NINDS, received a great score, then had it struck down after committee because it wasn't related enough to neuroscience. It was quite a blow to him. Then the NINDS dropped support for the F30 altogether, and still is not supporting it (see http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/NOT-OD-13-032.html). Fortunately the number of institutes supporting the F30 has improved recently. I think the F31 makes a lot less sense for MSTP students who should be picking well funded labs with strong projects in order to finish quickly. If I had written an F31 in my first year of graduate school, it would have finally been funded just in time for me to send the grant back as I defended my thesis.

All told, I would make grant submission optional, but supported and encouraged.

 

[solitude]

I suspect that if I stay on a research track, that my earlier experience/funding will mean next to nothing when I apply for funding later.

Sobering. Really?!? Isn't track record something that study sections specifically consider? And you don't think having navigated that maddening bureaucracy will help you to navigate it again?

Re: the financials, point taken. My institution did not remove any for health insurance, so it was A LOT of money for me to spend on computers, conferences, etc.

Agree that if paylines are really low, probability of funding is low, so it shouldn't be required.

side note: Neuronix, having followed your story for years, I'm amazed you're jumping back into research. Heartened, even.

 

[Neuronix]

Sobering. Really?!? Isn't track record something that study sections specifically consider? And you don't think having navigated that maddening bureaucracy will help you to navigate it again?

I doubt my past experience would be significantly helpful for me in the future if I decided to write a grant. I could be wrong.

side note: Neuronix, having followed your story for years, I'm amazed you're jumping back into research. Heartened, even.

Don't be heartened. I'm likely going into private practice when I finish. I wouldn't rule out "academics" where I am mostly clinical like in most academic positions, but the odds of me going into a majority, bench research position are very low unless funding dramatically improves in the near future. Research is a requirement of my residency program. I just have a hard time doing anything without intensity, and the bar is so low at times in clinical research that it can be relatively easy to produce by someone with the proper skills and a cush residency.

 

[CancerKiller007]

FWIW, I applied to NCI F30 (resubmission). I got impact score of 24. I was told in December that historically NCI has funded candidate with my score. PO officer asked me to check back in March. When I checked back a few days ago, they told me that due to budgeting, they wont be able to fund my application. I have to check back in mid-summer. If anyone declines their award, I may get funded (I really doubt that anyone would decline this though).

P.S. Many of these screen names evoke memories from pre-med era.

 

[Watson104]

FWIW, I applied to NCI F30 (resubmission). I got impact score of 24. I was told in December that historically NCI has funded candidate with my score. PO officer asked me to check back in March. When I checked back a few days ago, they told me that due to budgeting, they wont be able to fund my application. I have to check back in mid-summer. If anyone declines their award, I may get funded (I really doubt that anyone would decline this though).

P.S. Many of these screen names evoke memories from pre-med era.

Thank your congressman and resubmit next round since the study section likely intended for your F30 to get funded and will perhaps give you a fund-able score with the new paylines.

 

[debateg]

I'm a huge fan of submitting F30's. I think all MD/PhDs should submit one or a similarly equivalent grant. The reasoning is:

1) You are already writing a thesis proposal and generating preliminary data on the subject. With just a little bit more effort, you can turn that into a grant. If your PI thinks your project is worth funding, there is a chance that someone else will as well. From reading this, it seems that some schools won't let you submit a grant on your thesis project, which seems really asinine.

2) Writing a grant forces both you and your PI to think critically about your project. I think some PI's will just loosely outline a project and vaguely send you on your way hoping something sticks. Constructing a grant, talking about who you're going to collaborate with, discussing pitfalls and alternatives, and discussing whether or not your project is publishable are extraordinarily important and I feel sometimes get lost in a thesis proposal.

3) At some institutions you get money for yourself. This can range from a substantial salary boost, covering graduate school health fees and tuition, buying books, paying for USMLE exams, buying a computer, purchasing supplies for your project in lab, or funding you to go to a conference. This can add up to $5K - 10K per student per year in your pocket, which is not a trivial amount. When you're making $25K a year as a PhD student, it seems that spending a month full-time trying to increase your salary by 20% is very much worth it. Unfortunately, some institutions gobble the entire ball of money for themselves and give you nothing, which I think is pretty terrible.

4) Getting a track record of getting grants improves your fellowship / PSTP application. The goal of an academic fellowship in basic science is getting the K-award, and track record is valuable. I will agree that the grant probably has no bearing on residencies outside of some PSTP groups.

5) It gives you several outside criticisms on your project that your thesis committee won't even see. That may be helpful in improving your project.

6) It forces your PI to write you a letter of recommendation early in your career. Copy and paste, modify slightly, and instant residency letter. Your PI now has no excuse for submitting that letter 2 months after ERAS is due.

 

[Watson104]

3) At some institutions you get money for yourself. This can range from a substantial salary boost, covering graduate school health fees and tuition, buying books, paying for USMLE exams, buying a computer, purchasing supplies for your project in lab, or funding you to go to a conference. This can add up to $5K - 10K per student per year in your pocket, which is not a trivial amount. When you're making $25K a year as a PhD student, it seems that spending a month full-time trying to increase your salary by 20% is very much worth it. Unfortunately, some institutions gobble the entire ball of money for themselves and give you nothing, which I think is pretty terrible.

Institutional allowance is only $4200 - which I thought was standard across the board. I see around $1K for 'discretionary use' after health insurance, tuition, fees, etc are paid (the latter which were never paid by our stipend). What magic gets you $10K and how can I do that?

 

[Fencer]

Agree with each of the points by debateg.

Your institution is able to boost your salary if funds are available, as well as provide you with additional travel/conference benefits.

As program director, I believe submitting a F30/31 once (no requirement for re-submission) is helpful to all MD/PhD students as part of their professional development. I also advocate that the F30/31 grant application should fulfill some of the landmarks to become PhD candidate (i.e.: part of PhD dissertation proposal or outside application). This should not be a 3rd grant proposal...

 

[debateg]

Institutional allowance is only $4200 - which I thought was standard across the board. I see around $1K for 'discretionary use' after health insurance, tuition, fees, etc are paid (the latter which were never paid by our stipend). What magic gets you $10K and how can I do that?

I think it depends on the institution. I know some institutions will contribute funds from their own sources to increase salary more than $4200. My grant had much larger amounts of discretionary funding than $1000. I think I spent nearly $2000 on a computer alone. I charged my Step 2CK ($820) and Step 2CS ($1440) fees onto it, all of my medical books (Pocket Medicine alone is $50) and my review question bank (e.g. USMLEWorld is $400 for the year). My graduate program made me pay my health insurance and tuition fees out of my stipend every year (if I remember correctly ~$1000), but that's now covered by my grant. There is funding for travel, which is typically covered by your PI's or MD/PhD program's grant, but certain things may not be (e.g. food) that may be reimbursed by the F30. It starts adding up pretty fast if you have a good grant manager who can advise you on where you can spend the money.