F32

[fallen625]

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I want to write an F32 and I am wondering how this works. I matched at an internship that has research mentors that are great fits for me, so I am for sure going to bring up writing one, but the deadlines are April, August, and December, so I don't see myself being able to submit until the December deadline, and from what I hear it takes a few funding cycles, so I don't know how it would work for when internship starts and ends.

Do people always do it with a research mentor on internship, or do people ever reach out to other labs that may make sense and ask if they were willing to mentor an F32? I am trying to explore my options.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Am I the only one who thought this was going to be a thread about the ICD code for major depression? I’ve been in the clinical world too long!

 

[Ollie123]

As you hinted above, timing is the big issue with these. I thought about doing one on internship, but was too much of a gamble. They weren't willing to consider me for T32 lines if I had one under review, so it was basically all or nothing. Even if you submit in December and get a perfect score on the first date, I think your earliest allowable start date would be July? And I've literally never heard of a grant starting on the earliest possible start date.

I think the best plan is to find a post-doc first and THEN get started. Get started in internship, get a feel by late fall/early winter if you would like to stay and see if they can cobble together funds to keep you around. Write an F32 for the spring cycle once you know where you will be, since then you know you have the time.

Truthfully, I rarely see clinicians doing them anymore unless its a second post-doc or someone is vying for training in a completely new area. I think they make more sense of you are in neuroscience or something where the typical post-doc is 3-5 years versus 1-2 years. That's not to say its "bad" to do one by any stretch of the imagination, just that because of the increased competition for funding and challenges to timing...it tends not to make as much sense for a clinician.

Depends on the state of your CV and what you want, but I'd advocate skipping the F32 stage if you can. Find a standard 1-2 year post-doc and make sure they are open to you writing a K and start slapping one together the second you walk through the door. If you aren't ready or "need" the post-doc training, obviously do what you need to do, but I think an F32 pretty much guarantees stretching out your time in post-doc.

 

[bcliff]

Not sure if this is exactly how it works, but how much time can you "buy yourself out with" with a K award? -- Curious if it could be used to essentially transform an otherwise 90-100% clinical postdoc, provided there is infrastructure and mentorship to conduct research, into a 50/50 (or comparable) split?

 

[Ollie123]

K award will typically require at least 75% research time...

 

[bcliff]

That's helpful info! I imagine that clinical research funded by a K award could still allow for supervised postdoc hours for licensure, boarding, etc.? Any experience or info on seeking funding from alternative/additional sources (e.g., provision of clinical services) when funded less than 100% by a K award, or other advice on seeking out clinical and research mentorship/training on postdoc?

 

[fallen625]

As you hinted above, timing is the big issue with these. I thought about doing one on internship, but was too much of a gamble. They weren't willing to consider me for T32 lines if I had one under review, so it was basically all or nothing. Even if you submit in December and get a perfect score on the first date, I think your earliest allowable start date would be July? And I've literally never heard of a grant starting on the earliest possible start date.

I think the best plan is to find a post-doc first and THEN get started. Get started in internship, get a feel by late fall/early winter if you would like to stay and see if they can cobble together funds to keep you around. Write an F32 for the spring cycle once you know where you will be, since then you know you have the time.

Truthfully, I rarely see clinicians doing them anymore unless its a second post-doc or someone is vying for training in a completely new area. I think they make more sense of you are in neuroscience or something where the typical post-doc is 3-5 years versus 1-2 years. That's not to say its "bad" to do one by any stretch of the imagination, just that because of the increased competition for funding and challenges to timing...it tends not to make as much sense for a clinician.

Depends on the state of your CV and what you want, but I'd advocate skipping the F32 stage if you can. Find a standard 1-2 year post-doc and make sure they are open to you writing a K and start slapping one together the second you walk through the door. If you aren't ready or "need" the post-doc training, obviously do what you need to do, but I think an F32 pretty much guarantees stretching out your time in post-doc.

Thanks! This is very helpful, I certainly don't want to stretch out my time in post-doc, as I don't think I really need it. To be honest I mostly want this for a grant-writing experience (I got an NSF early in grad school so didn't have the chance to write an F31, and I want to learn how to write grants from people who are good at it) before getting a tenure-track or AMC job. But I like the idea of getting a regular post-doc and then just going straight for the K (& applying for T-T jobs at the same time..).

 

[cam88]

I am on internship right now and wrote an F32 (find out my score in a week in a half). I would echo a lot of what people have already said. The timing is definitely stressful in terms of actually having the time to write it in the fall and if you apply for postdocs positions at other institutions (I submitted for Dec deadline). The institution (and hospital) I am at is really open to people writing F32s and for me it didn't mess up my chance of getting on a T32, but other interns in my cohort who wrote an F are in an opposite situation and it did negatively effect their T32 application. I am not sure if your internship will have a research rotation, but if so I would recommend reaching out to your mentor now and maybe you could get started earlier in the writing and apply for the Oct deadline which should give you a score earlier. DM me if you have any more questions!

Oh, and I would say an F32 may only extend the postdoc time if you don't initially get it and need to reapply or if you do get the F and have to extend the grant. I know people who did get the F on internship and still did a postdoc in 2 years.

 

[Ollie123]

That's helpful info! I imagine that clinical research funded by a K award could still allow for supervised postdoc hours for licensure, boarding, etc.? Any experience or info on seeking funding from alternative/additional sources (e.g., provision of clinical services) when funded less than 100% by a K award, or other advice on seeking out clinical and research mentorship/training on postdoc?

I just reduced effort on my K to continue clinical work at 20% until I got licensed. Was able to get NIDA to grant concurrent funding for my other grants so I could be entirely on the K and it was not an issue of dropping below 75%. Dragged the licensure process out a bit and created some weirdness (I was an assistant professor, but still introduced myself to patients as a fellow since I wasn' licensed). Also had some benefits in that I actually got a 10% salary bump when I got licensed that probably would not have happened if these things occurred at the same time. I was just trying to be made whole because our clinical dollars are paid differently for fellows and faculty such that faculty dollars are "worth" less, but it wound up working out.

There are tons of other ways to get hours. Depends on your state, but many allow clinical research to count. Some people moonlight. Never heard of someone who could not get licensed if they wanted to, though plenty do not bother with it depending on their path.

 

[psystudent88]

I wrote a F32 on internship (submitted with Dec. deadline). I submitted the same grant to a foundation, which was ultimately funded. It sucks but is doable, and worthwhile IMO if you want a research-oriented post-doc/career. It helped my institution see me as a promising junior investigator and find funds for a fellowship for me (regardless of whether the grant was funded). My post-doc time was split 80% research-20% clinical and I had enough clinical hours to get licensed too!

PSA that if you want a research career, having a longer post-doc is not a bad thing (it helps A LOT). It is very competitive as you know and having another year of post-doc under your belt to publish, have more of your own data, submit a K, etc., is a good thing