Failed PE, applying exclusively ACGME

[FoolishSleeper]

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Hey, I found out that I failed the PE today. I'm only applying ACGME.

I did well on USMLE Step 1 and probably did as well or a bit worse on Step 2.

Can I wait to release my COMLEX scores until I pass my PE? I'm talking both what I'm allowed to do as well as what would be a prudent move for my career.

 

[hallowmann]

I would wait until you have a pass before updating the COMLEX report, especially if you already have a CE score on it.

If you haven't already initially released your COMLEX score report, then that's a tougher situation and it's a bit up in the air. Places need to know you passed the COMLEX level 1 and usually 2 CE, and not releasing could be a huge redflag, but so could releasing with a failed PE.

As far as whether or not you're able to not release them yet, yeah you should be able to, but it might mean your app is incomplete at some programs.

Either way, you need to address your issues, and take and pass it ASAP.

 

[FoolishSleeper]

Even if I'll have a Step 2 CK in the books? I didn't realize that you release each time you receive a score, I thought it was all or nothing.

 

[hallowmann]

Even if I'll have a Step 2 CK in the books? I didn't realize that you release each time you receive a score, I thought it was all or nothing.

Unless it's changed from last year, you have to re-release with each additional scores.

Honestly I know people that had issues with both situations. Some programs didn't count them as complete without the COMLEX scores. For another, the PE failure really hurt him in terms of getting invites.

Its really up to you which way you choose to go. Either way though, prepare and retake the PE ASAP.

 

[FoolishSleeper]

I just can't stop thinking about this.

I had it all lined up so well to match comfortably in anesthesia. I did almost everything right. Good USMLE, good letters, good personality. All ruined. I'm going to have to apply to 50+ programs.

How much should I adjust my expectations? I'm afraid the "midtier" programs I was planning on applying to are going to be too competitive for me now.

 

[hallowmann]

I just can't stop thinking about this.

I had it all lined up so well to match comfortably in anesthesia. I did almost everything right. Good USMLE, good letters, good personality. All ruined. I'm going to have to apply to 50+ programs.

How much should I adjust my expectations? I'm afraid the "midtier" programs I was planning on applying to are going to be too competitive for me now.

No point worrying about it now. I would honestly apply to more programs to be safe. Now is not the time to skimp on apps. You're going to want ~15 invites to feel safe with the redflag. If you get more, then you can decide not to go to some and save on those trips.

The process is unpredictable. If I were you, I wouldn't count on interviewing at any specific programs. Just submit, and see which programs send you invites.

Again, don't worry about it. What's done is done. If you match, none of this will matter.

 

[W19]

Now I can understand why some advisors are telling students to take CS/PE late (Oct-Nov)... That test can ruin a good application.

 

[ortnakas]

Now I can understand why some advisors are telling students to take CS/PE late (Oct-Nov)... That test can ruin a good application.

This comes with its own risks, though-- if you were to have the misfortune of failing it late, it could be difficult to schedule a new date and get a passing grade on your transcript before rank lists are due.

 

[W19]

This comes with its own risks, though-- if you were to have the misfortune of failing it late, it could be difficult to schedule a new date and get a passing grade on your transcript before rank lists are due.

I know it's a risk, but one can take that risk for the not so competitive specialties (IM/FM/GAS etc...) as there are people who have matched into them without CS score in...

 

[hallowmann]

I know it's a risk, but one can take that risk for the not so competitive specialties (IM/FM/GAS etc...) as there are people who have matched into them without CS score in...

The best time to take it is in late Aug to early Oct. You just have to make sure you release your USMLE score report on ERAS before the results come back. That way if it's bad, you have the time to retake it before ROL's are due and it won't affect how many interviews you get, and if it's good, you just have to rerelease your score report.

 

[Nebmedi]

I am almost in this exact same situation. Anesthesia applicant with USMLE Step 1 ~235, Comlex level 1 ~635, Level 2 ~655. I am trying to figure out if I my failed pe that I just received will go out on my application. I am applying ACGME as well. I "released" my usmle and comlex transcript early August. At the time, Step 1, Level 1, and Level 2 were reported but PE was pending. In ERAS it shows my Comlex USA transcript is "Authorized - 08/08/2017" under the status column. I am trying to confirm whether an updated transcript with the failed PE will be sent out if I assign the transcript to the programs I am applying to. Can I just hold off on rereleasing the Comlex transcript until after interview invites and passed PE exam? When I take Step 2 and send out a USMLE update, will I have to send out my PE score at the same time? How bad will this look to programs? Any utility in taking USMLE CS?

 

[W19]

From what I was told, if your transcript is already out, ERAS won't update it... You have to update yourself.

 

[Nebmedi]

I just spoke to ERAS helpdesk and they are saying once I assign the Comlex transcript to a program and apply, an updated version of my Comlex transcript with the failed PE will be sent. I released transcript on 08/07/2017 in ERAS. Failed PE was after that. I'm super stressed out because I don't know what is going to be sent. Does anyone know for certain? By "transcript out" does that mean released in ERAS or already sent to a program?

 

[hallowmann]

I just spoke to ERAS helpdesk and they are saying once I assign the Comlex transcript to a program and apply, an updated version of my Comlex transcript with the failed PE will be sent. I released transcript on 08/07/2017 in ERAS. Failed PE was after that. I'm super stressed out because I don't know what is going to be sent. Does anyone know for certain? By "transcript out" does that mean released in ERAS or already sent to a program?

I am not sure about this specific situation where you released and then got the score prior to applying. If you applied and assigned the score report, then it wouldn't update without you re-releasing, but I honestly don't know about if you didn't apply yet.

The only way to know for sure is to wait until you can apply and assign the score report. After you do that, it actually shows somewhere in ERAS which scores were released to each program you applied to. For now, if I were you, I'd assume they will see the failed score, and if it turns out they won't then that's good news.

 

[Nebmedi]

Thanks for replying hallowmann. I figured it out. I hadn't applied to any programs yet, so no transcript was ever requested from NBOME. Authorizing just means that I was giving initial permission to release the transcript once I actually apply. The failed PE will go out to any program I send my Comlex transcript to. I already paid the 50$ for a regrade, but I doubt it will come back any different. What I really need now is an honest assessment of my competiveness. With my stats, USMLE~ 235, Comlex 1 ~635, Comlex 2 ~655, and Step 2 now pushed back to early November, Honored 5/7 clerkships, good letters (sorry if this sound so similar to op), If I apply super broad will I get any interviews? Should I expect silence from most programs?

 

[Mehd School]

I'm going to be honest with you man. I don't think they're going to really get hung up on a failed PE with your other stats. As long as you pass it next time and can show them a pass sooner rather than later.

But I am concerned that you're taking step 2 (CK I assume) very late. Anesthesia programs do want to see a step 2 somewhat soon, although most programs I talked to will interview you without it.

 

[hallowmann]

Thanks for replying hallowmann. I figured it out. I hadn't applied to any programs yet, so no transcript was ever requested from NBOME. Authorizing just means that I was giving initial permission to release the transcript once I actually apply. The failed PE will go out to any program I send my Comlex transcript to. I already paid the 50$ for a regrade, but I doubt it will come back any different. What I really need now is an honest assessment of my competiveness. With my stats, USMLE~ 235, Comlex 1 ~635, Comlex 2 ~655, and Step 2 now pushed back to early November, Honored 5/7 clerkships, good letters (sorry if this sound so similar to op), If I apply super broad will I get any interviews? Should I expect silence from most programs?

Focus right now on passing as soon as possible. If you do that early enough, then you'll still get plenty of interviews. The people I know that were most affected were those that didn't have a passing score until Dec/Jan, because by then most interviews were already scheduled. Apply broadly, you should absolutely hear from many programs, but as you already suspect some will give you silence. If you really like the programs, reach out to them.

I would also take this opportunity to call in favors, use connections, etc. If you know a doc that can put in a good word at a program for you, make it happen. This could have a huge impact at some programs, and in many cases it might be enough for them to ignore the PE.

Everything else in your app is great, that's why having a pass to prove you won't have any issue graduating or getting licensed is so important. There should be plenty of programs that interview you anyway, but more will interview you if they see that you passed.

Really don't worry right now, the app cycle is unpredictable. Things might be completely fine, and they might not. Even if things go really bad, and you don't match, you still have a good chance of getting a spot in the field you want in the SOAP because of your scores and overall app.

I'm going to be honest with you man. I don't think they're going to really get hung up on a failed PE with your other stats. As long as you pass it next time and can show them a pass sooner rather than later.

But I am concerned that you're taking step 2 (CK I assume) very late. Anesthesia programs do want to see a step 2 somewhat soon, although most programs I talked to will interview you without it.

To be honest, I know people that didn't match with scores like their's and a failed PE. One was in Anesthesia. They all ended up with a good ACGME spot somewhere in the field they wanted, but the failed PE really messed with their interview cycle, because they couldn't get the pass in until really late in the cycle.

I agree that taking CK soon is important, but passing the PE is arguably more important. If they can do both well, then that's best.

 

[Kissmyabjj]

I failed PE on the first try and didn't match. Passed it the second time and matched. To be honest though, I don't think the reason I didn't match the first time had much to do with the PE. I just applied too late with too little experience and with a lackluster personal statement and annoying interview style. This is most likely nothing more than a bump in the road.

 

[Nebmedi]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the encouragement. So as it stands, I am applying super broad and now working on how to talk about the failed PE in my personal statement. Never thought I would have to do this. lol. I guess it's just another hurdle. I'll let you all know how things progress.

 

[jw3600]

I'm going to be honest with you man. I don't think they're going to really get hung up on a failed PE with your other stats. As long as you pass it next time and can show them a pass sooner rather than later.

But I am concerned that you're taking step 2 (CK I assume) very late. Anesthesia programs do want to see a step 2 somewhat soon, although most programs I talked to will interview you without it.

You would be incorrect. Take a glance at the scramble thread from this year. Most common shared trait from DOs not matching? Failed a board exam. Usually PE. It's a big deal.

 

[Nebmedi]

You would be incorrect. Take a glance at the scramble thread from this year. Most common shared trait from DOs not matching? Failed a board exam. Usually PE. It's a big deal.

Hmm... Yeah, it feels like a big deal. For anyone out there who hasn't taken it yet, make sure you devote sufficient time into preparing for the PE. They are looking for very specific things. Even if you perform well on the wards, it doesn't ensure success on the test. For me, I scheduled it during what ended up being a very intense rotation and had little time to study. I should have just rescheduled to an easier month and I wouldn't be in this situation. I'm trying mentally to take it in stride though. There's worse things in life that could happen. Also, worse case, I don't match and hopefully SOAP into a prelim year.

 

[LittleFoot]

Hey, so I have a similar question. I took my COMLEX PE on August 17th and I'm pretty much certain that I failed. Without going into details right now, I had a disaster first case (literally completely screwed it up) and all I could think about the rest of the day was "I already failed" - It threw me off the rest of the day. My COMLEX level 1 and 2 CE are good - 715, 683 respectively. USMLE Steps: 242, 253. I believe that I receive my PE score in late October (can't remember exact date and NBOME no longer has the dates listed anywhere as they make updates to their website).

It's my understanding based on previous posts here that if I authorize release of COMLEX scores, then my PE will automatically be submitted to programs, pass or fail.

So my question is: If I authorize release of my COMLEX now, and I end up failing my COMLEX PE, will I hurt my chances of getting interviews? Or are most interviews scheduled by late October?

Ultimately what I'm asking is what will affect me less negatively: 1) Not releasing my COMLEX scores, potentially implying that I'm hiding something 2) Releasing my COMLEX scores with the real possibility that they will see a COMLEX PE fail.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Hey, so I have a similar question. I took my COMLEX PE on August 17th and I'm pretty much certain that I failed. Without going into details right now, I had a disaster first case (literally completely screwed it up) and all I could think about the rest of the day was "I already failed" - It threw me off the rest of the day. My COMLEX level 1 and 2 CE are good - 715, 683 respectively. USMLE Steps: 242, 253. I believe that I receive my PE score in late October (can't remember exact date and NBOME no longer has the dates listed anywhere as they make updates to their website).

It's my understanding based on previous posts here that if I authorize release of COMLEX scores, then my PE will automatically be submitted to programs, pass or fail.

So my question is: If I authorize release of my COMLEX now, and I end up failing my COMLEX PE, will I hurt my chances of getting interviews? Or are most interviews scheduled by late October?

Ultimately what I'm asking is what will affect me less negatively: 1) Not releasing my COMLEX scores, potentially implying that I'm hiding something 2) Releasing my COMLEX scores with the real possibility that they will see a COMLEX PE fail.

I'd like to know the answers too since I'm worried about my performance as well.

 

[ortnakas]

If I authorize release of my COMLEX now, and I end up failing my COMLEX PE, will I hurt my chances of getting interviews? Or are most interviews scheduled by late October?

I think releasing the fail would hurt your chances more than not releasing at all. You might get questions about it at interviews, but chances are good you'll at least get the interviews. Just try to have a pass before rank lists are due.

Also, chances are good you passed. Everyone feels like they failed.

 

[hallowmann]

Hey, so I have a similar question. I took my COMLEX PE on August 17th and I'm pretty much certain that I failed. Without going into details right now, I had a disaster first case (literally completely screwed it up) and all I could think about the rest of the day was "I already failed" - It threw me off the rest of the day. My COMLEX level 1 and 2 CE are good - 715, 683 respectively. USMLE Steps: 242, 253. I believe that I receive my PE score in late October (can't remember exact date and NBOME no longer has the dates listed anywhere as they make updates to their website).

It's my understanding based on previous posts here that if I authorize release of COMLEX scores, then my PE will automatically be submitted to programs, pass or fail.

So my question is: If I authorize release of my COMLEX now, and I end up failing my COMLEX PE, will I hurt my chances of getting interviews? Or are most interviews scheduled by late October?

Ultimately what I'm asking is what will affect me less negatively: 1) Not releasing my COMLEX scores, potentially implying that I'm hiding something 2) Releasing my COMLEX scores with the real possibility that they will see a COMLEX PE fail.

Authorizing it and applying to the programs should result in them getting whatever scores are on the report when you apply. Unless things have changed, they won't get new scores unless you re-release/authorize the score report. This is how it was last year. Feel free to double check if this is still the case.

As for interviews, the Program Directors Survey has data on what percentage of interviews are typically offered. Looking at the overall data, it seems like most are in Oct with a decent amount in Nov as well.

 

[LittleFoot]

Authorizing it and applying to the programs should result in them getting whatever scores are on the report when you apply. Unless things have changed, they won't get new scores unless you re-release/authorize the score report. This is how it was last year. Feel free to double check if this is still the case.

As for interviews, the Program Directors Survey has data on what percentage of interviews are typically offered. Looking at the overall data, it seems like most are in Oct with a decent amount in Nov as well.

I believe things have in fact changed this year because my school contacted eras and were told that all COMLEX scores will be automatically uploaded once received. But my school has been wrong / misinterpreted things before so I'm going to dig a little more into this, and I'll post here once I find out a solid answer. Thanks for the info!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[LittleFoot]

Just an update on my previous question about whether new COMLEX scores after authorization are automatically uploaded to ERAS.

In short, my school was wrong - on page 34 of the myERAS user guide, it states that one must "resend" the COMLEX transcript once any new scores are released. I called ERAS and they confirmed this for me.

 

[Sacral Torsion]

The time frame which NBOME takes to allow you to schedule, then grade the PE is the real problem with failing the PE and its really messed up.

Essentially I will have the F on my transcript for all of application season because I took my PE July 17th 2017, found out I failed at the end of August, then retook it at the first available date in October and will not have the passing grade until early December with about a month to go in interview season.

The interviews I have had so far didnt seem to care at all, and I voluntarily brought up the failure on my own which they all appreciated - but I have had far fewer interviews than I expected with all else considered and only 3 at places I didn't audition at (which I attribute fully to the PE failure).

 

[t5Nitro]

For those of you that retook this exam, what did you do to prepare the second time around? This test worries me more than any of the steps or other comlex exams.

 

[Mr. MCAT]

Hi, just found out I failed today for this cycle in the humanism department. Pretty much same stats as Little Foot. Did you end up failing, Little Foot? Also, Sacral Torsion, what were your stats? I'm applying EM and now I'm so discouraged. I also found out I failed the SVI this week. My life is freaking falling apart. All my other stuff looks good, goodrotation grades, good extracurriculars, one research presentation, two scholarships, platinum TOUCH award, etc. I'm so depressed.

 

[Rekt]

Hi, just found out I failed today for this cycle in the humanism department. Pretty much same stats as Little Foot. Did you end up failing, Little Foot? Also, Sacral Torsion, what were your stats? I'm applying EM and now I'm so discouraged. I also found out I failed the SVI this week. My life is freaking falling apart. All my other stuff looks good, goodrotation grades, good extracurriculars, one research presentation, two scholarships, platinum TOUCH award, etc. I'm so depressed.

Nothing to do now about PE score. If you're applying ACGME, scores haven't even been sent out yet, so any NBOME transcript that gets assigned now will have your PE failure on it. You'll just have to sign up and take it asap and hope programs don't care. Also, you can't really "fail" the SVI, just score lowly on it. Most PDs I've talked to said they'll watch the extreme outliers to look for correlation with real interviews to see if it actually carries any significance. You also did not mention SLOEs, which is the most important part of your EM application. If you've crushed your aways so far, then that can makeup for subpar performance on the PE.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Nothing to do now about PE score. If you're applying ACGME, scores haven't even been sent out yet, so any NBOME transcript that gets assigned now will have your PE failure on it. You'll just have to sign up and take it asap and hope programs don't care. Also, you can't really "fail" the SVI, just score lowly on it. Most PDs I've talked to said they'll watch the extreme outliers to look for correlation with real interviews to see if it actually carries any significance. You also did not mention SLOEs, which is the most important part of your EM application. If you've crushed your aways so far, then that can makeup for subpar performance on the PE.

What is the timeframe when scores are sent out?

 

[Rekt]

What is the timeframe when scores are sent out?

I think it's only once you actually assign your scores to programs, assumingly after you pay the ERAS transcript fee.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I think it's only once you actually assign your scores to programs, assumingly after you pay the ERAS transcript fee.

That opens next week or this week? You can begin assigning scores as soon as ERAs opens correct?

 

[Desired Member]

Hi, just found out I failed today for this cycle in the humanism department. Pretty much same stats as Little Foot. Did you end up failing, Little Foot? Also, Sacral Torsion, what were your stats? I'm applying EM and now I'm so discouraged. I also found out I failed the SVI this week. My life is freaking falling apart. All my other stuff looks good, goodrotation grades, good extracurriculars, one research presentation, two scholarships, platinum TOUCH award, etc. I'm so depressed.

This test does not reflect your worth or intelligence. I watched the kauffman combank videos and did a bunch of timed practice encounters with family to prepare. I’ve heard that pretty much everyone passes second time around.
Talk to someone close, maybe even a counselor, if you are feeling very depressed.

 

[FistLength]

anecdotal, but a friend failed PE, was applying exclusively to a competitive ACGME specialty, he matched well. I don't know if the programs were aware of his failure (if he took it late) or they didn't care, but apparently it was never brought up.

 

[Nebmedi]

Hi all. Just wanted to give an update. I did end up matching to a university program in anesthesia and got my first pick. I ended up passing the PE after studying the maroon book, watching the Combank PE videos, and practicing every case with someone in a timed setting. I think the reason I failed initially was strictly a timing issue. I wasted time asking preventative health questions trying to cover all the bases and the summary and final comments part got cut off almost every time. Timed practice was what really helped. I also took Step 2 and did well ~250. For anyone that is in the same situation as I was, I guess it wasn’t the end of the world, but I certainly got fewer interviews than I would have otherwise. Good luck to you all!