Family is scaring me about debt

[Ullr]

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My family is telling me that I will never get out of debt if I go to dental school at Nova. I did not get accepted to my state school (UF).

I am in the process of applying of the Army HPSP but after my MEPS physical I realized that I don't think I would be happy in the military.

Please tell me if I am being irrational but this is my logic: The average dentist makes 158000 a year. For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number. I would still be making about 6000 a month. If I had 200000 in loans my monthly payment at ~6% would be ~2000 a month. 6000-2000= $4000 a month to live.

I currently live in a room with a TV and king size bed for $450 a month. I am pretty sure my current standard of living is much higher than what it would be in Iran. Furthermore, if I lived the way I currently do I would have about $2000 more a month than I am currently used to.

Keep in mind that this is all after taking half of the salary of the average dentist....

I am so tired of listening to "the sky is falling mentality" but thank you for your opinion.

 

[HillsNayyr]

My family is telling me that I will never get out of debt if I go to dental school at Nova. I did not get accepted to my state school (UF).

I am in the process of applying of the Army HPSP but after my MEPS physical I realized that I don't think I would be happy in the military.

Please tell me if I am being irrational but this is my logic: The average dentist makes 158000 a year. For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number. I would still be making about 6000 a month. If I had 200000 in loans my monthly payment at ~6% would be ~2000 a month. 6000-2000= $4000 a month to live.

I currently live in a room with a TV and king size bed for $450 a month. I am pretty sure my current standard of living is much higher than what it would be in Iran. Furthermore, if I lived the way I currently do I would have about $2000 more a month than I am currently used to.

Keep in mind that this is all after taking half of the salary of the average dentist....

I am so tired of listening to "the sky is falling mentality" but thank you for your opinion.

Going to nova you're going to be taking out more than 200k in loans.

 

[Ullr]

It still wont skew my monthly calculation by much......

 

[hellopeople]

My family is telling me that I will never get out of debt if I go to dental school at Nova. I did not get accepted to my state school (UF).

I am in the process of applying of the Army HPSP but after my MEPS physical I realized that I don't think I would be happy in the military.

Please tell me if I am being irrational but this is my logic: The average dentist makes 158000 a year. For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number. I would still be making about 6000 a month. If I had 200000 in loans my monthly payment at ~6% would be ~2000 a month. 6000-2000= $4000 a month to live.

I currently live in a room with a TV and king size bed for $450 a month. I am pretty sure my current standard of living is much higher than what it would be in Iran. Furthermore, if I lived the way I currently do I would have about $2000 more a month than I am currently used to.

Keep in mind that this is all after taking half of the salary of the average dentist....

I am so tired of listening to "the sky is falling mentality" but thank you for your opinion.

I don't think anyone is saying that you would be in trouble with 200K in loans.

It's the 350K - 450K tuition (+5% annual tuition increase + initiation fee) @ 6.8% interest that freaks some people out.

If you have a way to get your dental education for only 200K, then you don't have a problem.

 

[Bereno]

You will be taking out 305K in loans min (from ADA handbook), which translates into 372K after 4 years. This will be about 4.5k/month at 10 years, or 2.85k/month at 25 years. Starting salary will be around 100K, and then add insurance, misc costs and rent. It will be thin for you!

this might help out:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=868931

 

[Ullr]

You will be taking out 305K in loans min (from ADA handbook), which translates into 372K after 4 years. This will be about 4.5k/month at 10 years, or 2.85k/month at 25 years. Starting salary will be around 100K, and then add insurance, misc costs and rent. It will be thin for you!

this might help out:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=868931

Bereno, thanks a lot for that helpful info and excel sheet!

I noticed you are going to Uconn and it says you are from WA. Does the tuition concern you? from Uconn's website, the OOS tuition is similar to NOVA's. Or will you be able to switch your residency status to in state?

 

[yappy]

OP: MEPS is not like the real military.

What was it about meps that you didn't like. The military is much more organized/professional than MEPS.

 

[mike3kgt]

My family is telling me that I will never get out of debt if I go to dental school at Nova. I did not get accepted to my state school (UF).

I am in the process of applying of the Army HPSP but after my MEPS physical I realized that I don't think I would be happy in the military.

Please tell me if I am being irrational but this is my logic: The average dentist makes 158000 a year. For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number. I would still be making about 6000 a month. If I had 200000 in loans my monthly payment at ~6% would be ~2000 a month. 6000-2000= $4000 a month to live.

I currently live in a room with a TV and king size bed for $450 a month. I am pretty sure my current standard of living is much higher than what it would be in Iran. Furthermore, if I lived the way I currently do I would have about $2000 more a month than I am currently used to.

Keep in mind that this is all after taking half of the salary of the average dentist....

I am so tired of listening to "the sky is falling mentality" but thank you for your opinion.

Oh boy. As a Nova grad, I need to chime in because I have personal experience here.

You are grossly underestimating your total costs of #1 attendance and #2 loan repayment vs. salary.

-------------------------

Yes, tuition will be $200,000 but you have to add in everything... let's break it down:

Tuition:
$50,000 x4 = $200,000

Instruments & Supplies:
$14,000 + $10,500 + $4,000 + $4,500 = $33,000

Living expenses:
$21,500 x4 = $86,000

Totaling everything:
$200,000 + $33,000 + $86,000 = $319,000

So your true cost of attendance (from the NSU website information) is closer to 300k+ rather than the 200k total you are thinking. This also doesn't take into consideration boards which if you take FL board or WREB can add up to $10,000 each(for patient services etc).

-------------------------

Looking at loan repayment:

From http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $319,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $319,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 30 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $2,079.64
Number of Payments: 361

Cumulative Payments: $748,671.99
Total Interest Paid: $429,671.99

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 360 payments of $2,079.64 plus a final payment of $1.59.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $249,556.80 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.3. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $166,371.20, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.9.

The following table lists the minimum income necessary to repay the debt without encountering a partial economic hardship. Partial economic hardship is defined as having annual education loan payments in excess of 15 percent of discretionary income, where discretionary income is the amount by which Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) exceeds 150 percent of the poverty line. This figure is shown in the Minimum AGI (IBR) column. The Minimum AGI (ICR) column uses an alternate definition of economic hardship, based on 20 percent of discretionary income which is defined as the excess of AGI over 100 percent of the poverty line.
Using a loan term of 30 years instead of standard 10-year repayment reduces the monthly loan payment by $1,591.42 (43.4%), but increases the total interest paid by $308,144.49 (253.6%).

So $2,079.64 a month for 30 years is more realistic on a $319,000 loan.

-------------------------

Okay, so you think well, I'm going to be a great dentist and this is my dream so no matter what happens, I'm going to do it... right?

So you get a job right out of dental school that pays $120,000 (a moderate-moderately high salary right out of school).

On $120,000 salary:

Your Pay Check Results (via http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resour...l-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx) for a dentist job in Florida.

Monthly Gross Pay (based on $120,000 yearly salary)
$10,000.00

Federal Withholding
$2,204.88

Social Security
$420.00

Medicare
$145.00

Florida
$0.00

Net Pay
$7,230.12

So $7,230.12 - $2,079.64 = $5,150.48 net

-------------------------

So that leaves a little over 5k a month for housing, living expenses, family, etc. The question you have to ask yourself is 5k a month enough for you to live on for the next 30 years? Yes, we can assume that you will be making more than 120k at some point in the 30 years between dental school and when your final student loan repayment is due.

Is it doable? Yup. Will you have to be creative in your cost control? Yup. Should you be concerned that you will find a $120,000 "job" when you graduate? Oh yeah.

All of these assumptions are based around the fact that you can earn $120k your first year out and you are paying on a 30 year repayment plan.

If you change the repayment to 10 years, your monthly repayment jumps to: $3,671.06 whoa! Based upon $7,230.12 take-home (120k salary), you are left with $3,559.06 after loans and before anything else.

Additionally, so you said in your post "For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number." Let's take half of my number, $60,000. Your take home (after taxes) would only be $3,843.12. Subtract student loans (30 year) this leaves you only $1,763.48 a month. Subtract student loans (10 year) this leaves you only $172.06 a month. Now things become a lot harder.

So what's my point? Now you have to find a high-paying job day 1 after dental school (because most loans now will be forced into repayment immediately). This means that you need to go work for someone to guarantee this salary... which generally means a corporate job until you can put away $$ to purchase a practice/home/etc.

What do you value? What are your goals?

Military starts to sound real good doesn't it?

-------------------------

These are very important points to consider when looking at dental schools. Especially considering that when I graduated only close to 5 years ago, my tuition was around $35k a year 😱. It really hurts right now with the student loans we have now, and my figure isn't even close to $319k.

There are some great people still around at Nova... we had a wonderful experience there and it was pivotal to where I am now in my life. I, however, always encourage pre-dents to look at cost as a serious consideration in their choice of dental education.

 

[Ullr]

Thanks for all of that Info!!

My parents will be helping me with living expenses. So that should help a little bit.

This just makes me wonder how people survive with the debt from schools like USC and NYU...

 

[Bereno]

Bereno, thanks a lot for that helpful info and excel sheet!

I noticed you are going to Uconn and it says you are from WA. Does the tuition concern you? from Uconn's website, the OOS tuition is similar to NOVA's. Or will you be able to switch your residency status to in state?

I can switch my residency after the first year. I will get instate tuition for years 2, 3, and 4. Overall, its a pretty cheap school lol. Best of luck!

Also, dont forget that the majority of your loans are not going to be at 6.8%, but more than likely at 7.9% interest... Just an FYI

 

[NDPitch]

mike's post pretty much says it all.

Ugh. How high can it go before it's just no longer worth it?

*discouraged*

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Oh boy. As a Nova grad, I need to chime in because I have personal experience here.

You are grossly underestimating your total costs of #1 attendance and #2 loan repayment vs. salary.

-------------------------

Yes, tuition will be $200,000 but you have to add in everything... let's break it down:

Tuition:
$50,000 x4 = $200,000

Instruments & Supplies:
$14,000 + $10,500 + $4,000 + $4,500 = $33,000

Living expenses:
$21,500 x4 = $86,000

Totaling everything:
$200,000 + $33,000 + $86,000 = $319,000

So your true cost of attendance (from the NSU website information) is closer to 300k+ rather than the 200k total you are thinking. This also doesn't take into consideration boards which if you take FL board or WREB can add up to $10,000 each(for patient services etc).

-------------------------

Looking at loan repayment:

From http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $319,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $319,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 30 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $2,079.64
Number of Payments: 361

Cumulative Payments: $748,671.99
Total Interest Paid: $429,671.99

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 360 payments of $2,079.64 plus a final payment of $1.59.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $249,556.80 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.3. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $166,371.20, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.9.

The following table lists the minimum income necessary to repay the debt without encountering a partial economic hardship. Partial economic hardship is defined as having annual education loan payments in excess of 15 percent of discretionary income, where discretionary income is the amount by which Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) exceeds 150 percent of the poverty line. This figure is shown in the Minimum AGI (IBR) column. The Minimum AGI (ICR) column uses an alternate definition of economic hardship, based on 20 percent of discretionary income which is defined as the excess of AGI over 100 percent of the poverty line.
Using a loan term of 30 years instead of standard 10-year repayment reduces the monthly loan payment by $1,591.42 (43.4%), but increases the total interest paid by $308,144.49 (253.6%).

So $2,079.64 a month for 30 years is more realistic on a $319,000 loan.

-------------------------

Okay, so you think well, I'm going to be a great dentist and this is my dream so no matter what happens, I'm going to do it... right?

So you get a job right out of dental school that pays $120,000 (a moderate-moderately high salary right out of school).

On $120,000 salary:

Your Pay Check Results (via http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resour...l-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx) for a dentist job in Florida.

Monthly Gross Pay (based on $120,000 yearly salary)
$10,000.00

Federal Withholding
$2,204.88

Social Security
$420.00

Medicare
$145.00

Florida
$0.00

Net Pay
$7,230.12

So $7,230.12 - $2,079.64 = $5,150.48 net

-------------------------

So that leaves a little over 5k a month for housing, living expenses, family, etc. The question you have to ask yourself is 5k a month enough for you to live on for the next 30 years? Yes, we can assume that you will be making more than 120k at some point in the 30 years between dental school and when your final student loan repayment is due.

Is it doable? Yup. Will you have to be creative in your cost control? Yup. Should you be concerned that you will find a $120,000 "job" when you graduate? Oh yeah.

All of these assumptions are based around the fact that you can earn $120k your first year out and you are paying on a 30 year repayment plan.

If you change the repayment to 10 years, your monthly repayment jumps to: $3,671.06 whoa! Based upon $7,230.12 take-home (120k salary), you are left with $3,559.06 after loans and before anything else.

Additionally, so you said in your post "For the sake of argument lets say I make half of that number." Let's take half of my number, $60,000. Your take home (after taxes) would only be $3,843.12. Subtract student loans (30 year) this leaves you only $1,763.48 a month. Subtract student loans (10 year) this leaves you only $172.06 a month. Now things become a lot harder.

So what's my point? Now you have to find a high-paying job day 1 after dental school (because most loans now will be forced into repayment immediately). This means that you need to go work for someone to guarantee this salary... which generally means a corporate job until you can put away $$ to purchase a practice/home/etc.

What do you value? What are your goals?

Military starts to sound real good doesn't it?

-------------------------

These are very important points to consider when looking at dental schools. Especially considering that when I graduated only close to 5 years ago, my tuition was around $35k a year 😱. It really hurts right now with the student loans we have now, and my figure isn't even close to $319k.

There are some great people still around at Nova... we had a wonderful experience there and it was pivotal to where I am now in my life. I, however, always encourage pre-dents to look at cost as a serious consideration in their choice of dental education.

I would like to nominate your post as the SDN dental forum's all-star post!! 👍
Even I learnt so much from it!! Keep it coming!

 

[AwesomeTeeth]

mike's post pretty much says it all.

Ugh. How high can it go before it's just no longer worth it?

*discouraged*

I personally believe once you cross the 350k threshold, its not worth it.

 

[Silent Cool]

Check out the thread I made called "orthodontics tuition." I truly believe this is a case of irrational exuberance. These costs simply are not worth it for the return that you are LIKELY to get, especially considering the opening of new schools, expanding class sizes, and increase in foreign trained dentists.

 

[dds ed]

If dentistry is a passion for you, then follow that dream. Go into a profession because of how much you will make, you will pay for it every day you work because you won't wake up excited to be there. Each person must examine the reality of the profession; how do you put a value on loving what you do and likewise the negative of being dispassionate?

 

[uthscsaalum]

If dentistry is a passion for you, then follow that dream. Go into a profession because of how much you will make, you will pay for it every day you work because you won't wake up excited to be there. Each person must examine the reality of the profession; how do you put a value on loving what you do and likewise the negative of being dispassionate?

I disagree.

I think it is hard work if you are in a busy office and the majority of dentists eventually have back problems. It is also more stressful than the average job, IMO.

The one thing that makes up for all of that is the high compensation.

If I had a choice between being a dentist and a school teacher and both jobs paid a teacher's salary I'll take the summers off and be a teacher.

 

[dsoz]

[QUOTE=uthscsaalum;13128012]I disagree.

I think it is hard work if you are in a busy office and the majority of dentists eventually have back problems. It is also more stressful than the average job, IMO.

The one thing that makes up for all of that is the high compensation.

If I had a choice between being a dentist and a school teacher and both jobs paid a teacher's salary I'll take the summers off and be a teacher.[/QUOTE]

Been there, done that (read my MDApps under my avatar). I am a high school science teacher trying to change into medicine. Let me highlight something

Additionally, so you said in your post "For the sake of argument let's say I make half of that number." Let's take half of my number, $60,000. Your take home (after taxes) would only be

$3,843.12. Subtract student loans (30 year) this leaves you only $1,763.48 a month. Subtract student loans (10 year) this leaves you only $172.06 a month. Now things become a lot harder.

$3-4000 take home is what I am making in my 19th year as a teacher. You don't make that after going to school and freshly graduate with a teaching certificate. In my district you are looking at closer to $30k/year. IF YOU CAN FIND A JOB. The two biggest districts in my state just laid off over 400 teachers between them. Not to mention all the other districts that also made cuts. They will get jobs before a new teacher right out of school.

Please take your "If I had a choice" off the table. There is no choice to become a teacher until the economy improves and states can pay people to teach kids.

Sorry /end rant

I know that I am going to go into massive debt. NSU is my first acceptance. I am expecting one more, and hoping for a third. I still have yet to hear anything from my state school, so there is hope for another that is slightly cheaper.

Good luck. I hope everything works out for you. I am just a cynical old man that is bored being in a city far away from my home waiting for an interview in the morning.

dsoz

 

[charlestweed]

I disagree.

I think it is hard work if you are in a busy office and the majority of dentists eventually have back problems. It is also more stressful than the average job, IMO.

The one thing that makes up for all of that is the high compensation.

If I had a choice between being a dentist and a school teacher and both jobs paid a teacher's salary I'll take the summers off and be a teacher.

I with you on this one. I chose dentistry because of the good income and the job security. I never feel excited about going to work when I get out of my bed every day. And orthodontics is what many consider to be the best job in the world. I love ortho because it pays me well, not because I love to straighten people's teeth. What I love is to be home more and spend time with my kids. Every time I prescribe 4 biscuspid extraction for ortho tx, I assume the responsibility of closing those extraction spaces and giving my patient the ideal class I occlusion in 24 months. Such responsibility causes stress. My most favorite days of the week are my 2 days off.

It's easy for many pre-dents to say "you should do what you love and not to worry about how much you make" because they are living on borrowed money (or their parents' money). They haven't yet faced real responsibility of paying their own bills and supporting their own family.

Dental education is getting a lot more expensive. More dental schools are opening. The starting salary for new grad dentists is on the decline. Despite all of these negativities, I still encourage my own kids, my nephews and nieces (who are about to enter colleges), and my teenager ortho patients to pursue dentistry. Dentistry is still one of the best career options out there.

 

[theleatherwalle]

state school is usually everyone first choice unless

1) You get into somewhere really prestigious ex: Harvard, Columbia
2) You hate your state school for x,y,z reason
3) You have boat loads of cash.

Go talk to a financial adviser and do some research. When your loans start going over 250-300K....then things start looking rather nasty.

 

[diasIItema]

Apply for the NHSC. I'm male, middle class, and white, so I didn't think I had a shot. Turns out I got one. They handed out about 200 from 3000 applications, and 50 of the 200 are dental students. So yes, it's competitive but not unattainable. Or you could just do loan repayment through the NHSC or a state program if HPSP isn't for you.

Regarding the last post, I turned down both Columbia and Harvard for my state school 😉. I also agree with leatherwalle that a financial advisor consult early on might be prudent.

 

[LLUdental]

I with you on this one. I chose dentistry because of the good income and the job security. I never feel excited about going to work when I get out of my bed every day. And orthodontics is what many consider to be the best job in the world. I love ortho because it pays me well, not because I love to straighten people's teeth. What I love is to be home more and spend time with my kids. Every time I prescribe 4 biscuspid extraction for ortho tx, I assume the responsibility of closing those extraction spaces and giving my patient the ideal class I occlusion in 24 months. Such responsibility causes stress. My most favorite days of the week are my 2 days off.

It's easy for many pre-dents to say "you should do what you love and not to worry about how much you make" because they are living on borrowed money (or their parents' money). They haven't yet faced real responsibility of paying their own bills and supporting their own family.

Dental education is getting a lot more expensive. More dental schools are opening. The starting salary for new grad dentists is on the decline. Despite all of these negativities, I still encourage my own kids, my nephews and nieces (who are about to enter colleges), and my teenager ortho patients to pursue dentistry. Dentistry is still one of the best career options out there.

very well said!

 

[CMistry]

The reality is that when you graduate dental school loan repayment will eat at a substantial part of your income. So when you've just graduated and are living off $60-70k a year, your family will think they were right and that you wasted 4 years of your youth in school only to make slightly more than many college graduates. But when your debt is paid off in 15 years and you are making $150-200k a year, you (and your family) will be very happy with the decision to become a dentist. Pulling numbers out of my @$$ here, you should keep in mind that >50% of dentists make $150,000+ while >0.01% of college grads do.

 

[Wakaaa]

I'm honestly annoyed by all these "drowning in debt" threads. I've repeated my side of the story at least 5 times already and I'm trying to ignore this thread but since its getting bigger and bigger I'll just tell you something and you decide for yourself. Graduating as a dentist + taking all that debt and working for someone is I think 10 times safer decision than someone that owns a non health relate business such as a gas station. People are worried about making 120k a year out of dental school and paying off 300 - 400k when businessman have 1mil + debt here in Illinois, some make 120k a year after paying off that mortgage yearly. Now that's double to triple the risk and they are making it work. Gas stations don't have a guaranteed income because you never know so and so will be back in 3 days to pump gas again or if the sale of cigars will continue to be this high (gas stations in the city of Chicago make most of their money off cigars). You have a guarantee to have 120k and live of 60 - 70k, what more of a guarantee do you want? Why not be an engineer and make 60k with no debt, if you're worried so much? There's much more than double the potential with dentistry. I'm not even worried about debt and not a single thought is given about how it's going to be payed off. I've seen family struggle to pay off millions in debt throughout the past 8 years and its workin although some months no profit is made and some a small profit, we set up a specific goal to pay off and we deal with the struggle even though we can pay less than the mortgage needs us to and be happier. You need to look at the bigger picture. When will you finish paying this debt? I've learned to minimize my lifestyle and pay off everything as fast as possible is one of the smartest decisions you can do under debt. Although it might be hard to get by like I stated earlier trying to pay off a couple millions in debt in 8 years, it worked and soon it'll be good knowing we don't have to pay 15k+ a month for mortgage. Set up a specific amount of money you are willing on spending then figure out how fast you can pay off those loans. I'd rather pay off those loans ASAP and use that extra 3k - 5 k and spend it on a mortgage for a clinic which means more potential to make money or a bigger house.

If you want to pay it off in 10 years go ahead, it all comes down to what you want. I don't want to live like a king when I come out of d school. I'm not going to even be dumb enough to mortgage even more stuff on top of my school mortgage. My number one priority that I've learned throughout the years is to minimize debt.

I almost forgot to mention how bad it is for a gas station owners kids to think about their parents debt and whether or not that parent would come home alive or not because its a very dangerous job. Dentistry is so much safer and brings peace of mind although owning a gas station is an investment you can at least be guaranteed you can live happily and safely.

 

[thewingman]

I'm honestly annoyed by all these "drowning in debt" threads. I've repeated my side of the story at least 5 times already and I'm trying to ignore this thread but since its getting bigger and bigger I'll just tell you something and you decide for yourself. Graduating as a dentist + taking all that debt and working for someone is I think 10 times safer decision than someone that owns a non health relate business such as a gas station. People are worried about making 120k a year out of dental school and paying off 300 - 400k when businessman have 1mil + debt here in Illinois, some make 120k a year after paying off that mortgage yearly. Now that's double to triple the risk and they are making it work. Gas stations don't have a guaranteed income because you never know so and so will be back in 3 days to pump gas again or if the sale of cigars will continue to be this high (gas stations in the city of Chicago make most of their money off cigars). You have a guarantee to have 120k and live of 60 - 70k, what more of a guarantee do you want? Why not be an engineer and make 60k with no debt, if you're worried so much? There's much more than double the potential with dentistry. I'm not even worried about debt and not a single thought is given about how it's going to be payed off. I've seen family struggle to pay off millions in debt throughout the past 8 years and its workin although some months no profit is made and some a small profit, we set up a specific goal to pay off and we deal with the struggle even though we can pay less than the mortgage needs us to and be happier. You need to look at the bigger picture. When will you finish paying this debt? I've learned to minimize my lifestyle and pay off everything as fast as possible is one of the smartest decisions you can do under debt. Although it might be hard to get by like I stated earlier trying to pay off a couple millions in debt in 8 years, it worked and soon it'll be good knowing we don't have to pay 15k+ a month for mortgage. Set up a specific amount of money you are willing on spending then figure out how fast you can pay off those loans. I'd rather pay off those loans ASAP and use that extra 3k - 5 k and spend it on a mortgage for a clinic which means more potential to make money or a bigger house.

If you want to pay it off in 10 years go ahead, it all comes down to what you want. I don't want to live like a king when I come out of d school. I'm not going to even be dumb enough to mortgage even more stuff on top of my school mortgage. My number one priority that I've learned throughout the years is to minimize debt.

I almost forgot to mention how bad it is for a gas station owners kids to think about their parents debt and whether or not that parent would come home alive or not because its a very dangerous job. Dentistry is so much safer and brings peace of mind although owning a gas station is an investment you can at least be guaranteed you can live happily and safely.

Frist off, you are dead wrong about gas stations. My family is in that business, so I have more insight on this. Each one makes about 15k or so a month and you can easily manage multiple ones. Also, the "debt" that you are in is actually equity that you are building over time - in 15 years or so, you will own that million dollar business. However, with dental school, after 10 -15 years, you will only own your degree - no real asset. The only people who will have made money will be the dental schools.

You mentioned alternative careers. Well, as an engineer, you will not make more than 60k. This is what most make starting out. I use to work in corporate america and made 100k 5 years out of undergrad with no debt. I am certain that I could have made 150-200 by mid career. There are plenty of those jobs out there for people who are smart enough to get into dental school.

You, along with most predents, don't understand that the glory days of dentistry are gone. You will be in more debt and that 100K plus income will result in 1) you paying higher taxes 2) you owing someone else a ton of money after tax. You will most likely also lose out on revenue streams, such as hygiene due to MLPs becoming more prevalent in the future.

You might wonder why I decided to dentistry after all this. It i because I my total costs for school will be under 100k, which will allow me to be in a way better situation than most other students.

 

[Wakaaa]

Frist off, you are dead wrong about gas stations. My family is in that business, so I have more insight on this. Each one makes about 15k or so a month and you can easily manage multiple ones. Also, the "debt" that you are in is actually equity that you are building over time - in 15 years or so, you will own that million dollar business. However, with dental school, after 10 -15 years, you will only own your degree - no real asset. The only people who will have made money will be the dental schools.

You mentioned alternative careers. Well, as an engineer, you will not make more than 60k. This is what most make starting out. I use to work in corporate america and made 100k 5 years out of undergrad with no debt. I am certain that I could have made 150-200 by mid career. There are plenty of those jobs out there for people who are smart enough to get into dental school.

You, along with most predents, don't understand that the glory days of dentistry are gone. You will be in more debt and that 100K plus income will result in 1) you paying higher taxes 2) you owing someone else a ton of money after tax. You will most likely also lose out on revenue streams, such as hygiene due to MLPs becoming more prevalent in the future.

You might wonder why I decided to dentistry after all this. It i because I my total costs for school will be under 100k, which will allow me to be in a way better situation than most other students.

Did I forget to say, my father is the person I referred to as the gas station owner? You can own a degree which could help you save or potentially invest in more than a gas station owner can. It's much more less of a headache too.

 

[doubledizzle13]

Just because your family has experienced a worse financial situation than what a dental student experiences these days does not mean that you are giving sound financial advice. There are plenty of other lucrative and lower risk career options out there for a person smart enough to get into dental school (medicine is full of them).

Dentistry is at the tipping point where the investment is simply not worth it to become a general dentist (I agree with >$350k being a good point to say no thanks- and this is coming from a guy with around $365k in debt).
Dental schools need to be held accountable for ridiculous increases in cost over the past 10-15 years. The only way they will do this is if pre-dents wise-up and stop signing up for a lifetime of indentured servitude to student loans (Remember it is nearly impossible to default on student loan debt-you will end up paying it). Re-applying one more year is not that big of a deal if it means $100-$200k less student loan debt. I still regret not going to the 2 schools where I was offered In-state tuition-I chose how I felt about the school rather than listening to the wise advice that I should go wherever I could pay the least, what an idiot I was!
This large debt to income ratio has created a generation of money hungry new grads that have to stretch their morals and tarnish the good name of dentistry just to make ends meet-this is not the path to a happy and fulfilling career.
Listen to people that have walked the walk and that understand the unhappiness & anxiety that will likely result from having a huge debt burden hanging over your head which greatly compounds the stress/exhaustion that working as a dentist on a daily basis already brings.
Dentistry is much more stressful and difficult than anyone that hasn't actually practiced dentistry can realize. I remember before dental school thinking that dentistry seemed to be one of the easier jobs in the world and I remember brushing off when my own dentist told me that practicing dentistry was THE hardest thing he had ever done in his life. I thought, it can't be that bad, you sit down all day, I've done way harder jobs.
Now I realize that it is harder than most jobs and not nearly as lucrative as I tried to convince myself all throughout dental school-there is no guaranteed $250k job with a good mentor waiting for every new grad after 3 or 4 years. You'll have to hustle your tail off to get to that point.

Due to all the advances in technology and dentistry's overlap with medicine, quality dentistry takes years to come close to mastering (unless you have no conscious and are fine with putting out a subpar service and not basing your techniques on the latest evidence, and are fine with working at lightning speed and not being able to interact with your patients-very common unfortunately), and the actual physical labor of dentistry requires 100% focus and extreme attention to detail that rivals the work of any surgeon and yields the praise from the average patient of an overpaid tooth mechanic.
There is a reason that few dentists can stand to work more than 40 hours/week, it is too physically and mentally exhausting and burnout and physical injury is a very real and common occurrence.

What I have gleaned from dental school and from talking to those with much more experience than myself is that the way to a fulfilling career in dentistry is by making your daily work a choice and not a requirement to survive. Listen to the guys on dentaltown that are out of debt and work 3-4 days a week and finally can say that they love what they do, and compare that to the guys mired in debt up to their eyeballs and feel the stress of the world on their shoulders. I would highly recommend either the military or HSPS, working in a underserved area (get ready for the rural life-almost nobody in dental school wants that unfortunately), or making sure you are smart enough and focused enough to specialize in a lucrative specialty without taking out tons more debt.

 

[yappy]

No way, man. Every other small business is a huge success with no head aches and millions of equity. And every predent needs to justify the opportunity cost of what would have been their inevitable 150-200k mid career salary had they not gone into dentistry.

Again, dentistry pays in the top 20% of incomes in the US; but, don't do it because of that. For some reason no can explain, that is not much money; instead, become an RN and make 55k/yr or a PA that makes 90k. That is a smarter life-long financial choice.

🙄

Did I forget to say, my father is the person I referred to as the gas station owner? You can own a degree which could help you save or potentially invest in more than a gas station owner can. It's much more less of a headache too.

 

[thewingman]

Did I forget to say, my father is the person I referred to as the gas station owner? You can own a degree which could help you save or potentially invest in more than a gas station owner can. It's much more less of a headache too.

Are you serious?! You can make WAY more over your career with a gas station or few than from practicing as a dentist. You would also not incur real debt for an assetless degree and would not forgo several years of income either. Running a clinic is a headache too - so is any other business.

 

[Wakaaa]

Are you serious?! You can make WAY more over your career with a gas station or few than from practicing as a dentist. You would also not incur real debt for an assetless degree and would not forgo several years of income either. Running a clinic is a headache too - so is any other business.

Brb forget my goals of becoming a dentist. I'm opening up another gas station when my family comes soon from overseas, but let me see how I'll be able to get that money....

 

[Batmansvoice]

Just because your family has experienced a worse financial situation than what a dental student experiences these days does not mean that you are giving sound financial advice. There are plenty of other lucrative and lower risk career options out there for a person smart enough to get into dental school (medicine is full of them).

Dentistry is at the tipping point where the investment is simply not worth it to become a general dentist (I agree with >$350k being a good point to say no thanks- and this is coming from a guy with around $365k in debt).
Dental schools need to be held accountable for ridiculous increases in cost over the past 10-15 years. The only way they will do this is if pre-dents wise-up and stop signing up for a lifetime of indentured servitude to student loans (Remember it is nearly impossible to default on student loan debt-you will end up paying it). Re-applying one more year is not that big of a deal if it means $100-$200k less student loan debt. I still regret not going to the 2 schools where I was offered In-state tuition-I chose how I felt about the school rather than listening to the wise advice that I should go wherever I could pay the least, what an idiot I was!
This large debt to income ratio has created a generation of money hungry new grads that have to stretch their morals and tarnish the good name of dentistry just to make ends meet-this is not the path to a happy and fulfilling career.
Listen to people that have walked the walk and that understand the unhappiness & anxiety that will likely result from having a huge debt burden hanging over your head which greatly compounds the stress/exhaustion that working as a dentist on a daily basis already brings.
Dentistry is much more stressful and difficult than anyone that hasn't actually practiced dentistry can realize. I remember before dental school thinking that dentistry seemed to be one of the easier jobs in the world and I remember brushing off when my own dentist told me that practicing dentistry was THE hardest thing he had ever done in his life. I thought, it can't be that bad, you sit down all day, I've done way harder jobs.
Now I realize that it is harder than most jobs and not nearly as lucrative as I tried to convince myself all throughout dental school-there is no guaranteed $250k job with a good mentor waiting for every new grad after 3 or 4 years. You'll have to hustle your tail off to get to that point.

Due to all the advances in technology and dentistry's overlap with medicine, quality dentistry takes years to come close to mastering (unless you have no conscious and are fine with putting out a subpar service and not basing your techniques on the latest evidence, and are fine with working at lightning speed and not being able to interact with your patients-very common unfortunately), and the actual physical labor of dentistry requires 100% focus and extreme attention to detail that rivals the work of any surgeon and yields the praise from the average patient of an overpaid tooth mechanic.
There is a reason that few dentists can stand to work more than 40 hours/week, it is too physically and mentally exhausting and burnout and physical injury is a very real and common occurrence.

What I have gleaned from dental school and from talking to those with much more experience than myself is that the way to a fulfilling career in dentistry is by making your daily work a choice and not a requirement to survive. Listen to the guys on dentaltown that are out of debt and work 3-4 days a week and finally can say that they love what they do, and compare that to the guys mired in debt up to their eyeballs and feel the stress of the world on their shoulders. I would highly recommend either the military or HSPS, working in a underserved area (get ready for the rural life-almost nobody in dental school wants that unfortunately), or making sure you are smart enough and focused enough to specialize in a lucrative specialty without taking out tons more debt.

,

Unfortunately specializing isn't a surefire or even reasonable way to escape from debt. Imagine how much a 6 year OMFS residency with MD tuition will cost you in terms of interest and the additional tuition debt? I know of an Endo grad fresh out of residency owing 520 K (excluding undergrad loans). I'm sure some orthodontic programs nowadays will leave you with 600-700K (not to mention that this field pretty much requires you to own your own business as no one is hiring-not even chains). What's the safe bet? 4 years OMFS?

 

[doubledizzle13]

After giving my big spiel on this thread I was pleased to see a thread backing me up on Dentaltown. "Startling words from a recent grad" is the title, it's on the "Today's Active Topics" area of dentaltown. You do have to sign up for an account but I have been milking that site for free CE and ridiculously valuable career advice since before I started dental school and would highly recommend it, it's free.

 

[Silent Cool]

,

Unfortunately specializing isn't a surefire or even reasonable way to escape from debt. Imagine how much a 6 year OMFS residency with MD tuition will cost you in terms of interest and the additional tuition debt? I know of an Endo grad fresh out of residency owing 520 K (excluding undergrad loans). I'm sure some orthodontic programs nowadays will leave you with 600-700K (not to mention that this field pretty much requires you to own your own business as no one is hiring-not even chains). What's the safe bet? 4 years OMFS?

These numbers sound right. I've pointed out several times on other threads the cost of ortho. 200K at UNLV for 2.5 years of tuition, plus living ontop of that! So yeah, with interest you are looking at 700K. And that is without undergrad debt. I would say the best bang or the buck would be pedo or 4-year omfs. Those programs actually PAY YOU a stipend, and you can probably moonlight on the side (harder in OMFS of course, but I've heard of people doing it).

😎