- Joined
- Dec 9, 2013
- Messages
- 58
- Reaction score
- 42
Last edited:
Also a FM intern.. i plan on moonlighting as a 2. And so much more inpatient than id preferNot an MS4 but appreciate the thread🙂
Do you plan on moonlighting? If so how much supplemental income could you bring in you think?
Do you have to do any inpatient on your FM service?
Wonderful question.How big was the learning curve when starting out? What do you wish you would've done fourth year to maybe lessen that learning curve?
The best thing you can do is work on an upward trend. Residencies care that you pass boards, and that you were very good as an MS3.OMS-1 hoping to practice rural family med, looking for an UOP. I’ll have a red flag application, I repeated my first semester due to academic failure the first time through. I figured out my issues, improved my study skills and did very well on the second attempt.
What can I do moving forward to prove my chances of matching well? Does FM care about research?
Probably one of the most important things actually is figuring out which program Unopposed (UOP) vs Opposed (OP).
UOP programs might allow you for more hands on training. More independence in running the hospital. Most importantly, UOP programs are the center of attention at a residency so they get more of the curriculum catered for their specific needs. I know someone at a UOP FM residency who wants to do an OB fellowship, and got to deliver 200+ babies.
OP programs can be wonderful too because you get to learn from specialists. The biggest regret that I have about being at an OP program is that there have been times where my FM program is disregarded, and discriminated against. Part of that is due to the perceived hierarchy and importance of primary care vs specialties. Part of it is due to the challenges of making several residency programs from different specialties integrate cohesively. On my OB rotation, I only delivered 15 babies, because my training was not a priority to the OB residency. That being said, I learned an incredible amount of inpatient medicine from my IM colleagues, and I might not have had that exposure at an UOP program.
What are good reasons to choose FM over IM besides wanting to treat pediatric patients?
pretty much this. we as iM get better inpatient training in general but unless you set up a lot of elective outpatient stuff we do not do a whole lot of clinic time. We are an elective heavy program though so if you know you arent going to specialize you can do outpatient stuff a few extra months a year.I'm just a M4, but I can say that some of the reasons that people list for choosing FM>IM include:
1. Peds (as you mentioned)
2. Obstetrics
3. More outpatient training in residency (i.e. if you know that you want to do outpatient primary care, FM is a better option)
The above three make it preferable to work in an urgent care setting, for instance, where you will see kids and adults. Likewise if you're a hospitalist working at a smaller community hospital that admits adults and peds patients.
There are larger differences in residency training, some might say that FM residency is generally "more chill," but that varies greatly from program to program in both IM and FM. I've heard of some FM residents consistently working 70-80 hour weeks.
You will be ok. Have you rotated with pediatrics? You really just need 1 LOR to match FM. Some people scramble into FM without even having any LORs from FM. What you could try is a LOR from faculty from MS1-MS2 if you did any research or TAd a class, or had an advisor. Then try to get a LOR from a pediatrician, or even from an internal med rotation. Then early 4th year try to get your FM letter. You can also submit late letters of rec. So if you do a FM rotation MS4 in the fall/winter, you can quickly try to upload it.I am in the middle of third year, and have no LORs. I have not had a rotation with nay family med doctors and will not have any during my third year. I feel I am in huge trouble and have no chance to match. What should I do?
Great point. I only had one FM letter and did hust fine.You will be ok. Have you rotated with pediatrics? You really just need 1 LOR to match FM. Some people scramble into FM without even having any LORs from FM. What you could try is a LOR from faculty from MS1-MS2 if you did any research or TAd a class, or had an advisor. Then try to get a LOR from a pediatrician, or even from an internal med rotation. Then early 4th year try to get your FM letter. You can also submit late letters of rec. So if you do a FM rotation MS4 in the fall/winter, you can quickly try to upload it.
Just to push back a bit on this, while there is some saturation in big cities for good hospitalist jobs, the primary care IM job market is just as wide open as FM, with massive demand from Manhattan to Dodge City. A large amount of jobs are happy to take either FM or IM interchangeably too.Very insightful question @garrettp. I like where your head is at. This is something that I struggled with too when I was between IM and FM. To summarize the biggest difference in two words: "Job Flexibility"
First I will address training and job placement.
(I am not doing IM justice, and what I am about to say is a gross simplification) but IM opens two major career paths. Generalist, and specialist. I would say that if you already know that you want to specialize in 1 field, then go IM. For example, if you are passionate about treating (e.g. Infectious Disease cases) and really enjoy homing in on 1 specialty then it makes sense to pursue IM. You will be an "expert", and that means that the buck stops with your decision on a treatment plan. People will defer to (and appreciate) your judgement most of the time. You can always go into IM, and if you decide that you don't really want to focus on 1 subject, then pursue a generalist track and you can either work as an internist in the clinic, or as a hospitalist. I will say that there is 1 major disadvantage of going into IM. The jobs are saturated in desirable cities. I know a lot of IM people who are a little concerned that they may have to get their first job 30-60 mins outside of a desirable city.
FM training can be looked at as rural vs urban. Rural programs offer full scope training, some programs teach you to perform c-sections, appendectomies, colonoscopies, contraception, newborn care ect... (There are even some programs up in Alaska where they fly you on a helicopter to rural villages to treat people who see a doctor once a year.) Urban programs tend to prepare you for common chronic disease that saturates a city. It is a misnomer when medical students make the assumption that FM doctors are not experts, but just a "jacks-of-all-trades"... In reality, in the urban environments FM docs are specialists in common problems. You become an "expert" in common problems like Asthma, COPD, Care of Children and elderly, depression, diabetes, public health, heart disease, hypertension, preventative care, women's health, hyperlipidemia, then then you have a jack-of-all-trades understanding about everything else in medicine like rheum, derm, surgery, ICU, hospitalist ect... You can also do a fellowship if you desire to become a specialist in just 1 thing like sports medicine, palliative care, academics ect. This translates into Family medicine having tremendous job security. Family Medicine is the #1 in demand specialty in the United States. A Major Advantage of FM is that it is easy for FM doctors to find jobs in desirable cities, and if you want to move out to the rural midwest and make 400k+ as an FM doc, you can do that too. You could make a point that "IM generalists" are also specialists in common problems (minus peds). But because of the shortage of FM docs and abundance of IM docs, the job markets look different coming out of training.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness
I actually don't know a whole lot about PSLF for IM physicians. I do know that FM has no trouble finding training and jobs that qualify for PSLF. I know that my EM buddies are concerned that nearly every EM group is private, and therefor nor eligible for PSLF. Whereas, there is an abundance of PSLF jobs for FM. I would imagine that there are many PSLF jobs available for IM, and that might actually work out really well if you are flexible about moving. For example if you do 3 years of IM, and then 2-3 years of fellowship, you would be about halfway done with payment for 10 year PSLF (if you matched at a institution that qualifies). In order to get your 10 years, you would then just have to move somewhere and work for a 501(c)(3) employer for 4-5 more years and you are done. But this kindof relates to the previous point about job demand. It is just going to be a lot easier as an FM doc to find these kind of jobs in the desirable cities.
Moonlighting.
FM docs are trained in peds, and usually peds ER. This means that FM docs can moonlight as residents and even work for urgent cares as first job if desirable. IM docs aren't experts in treating kids, so urgent cares prefer to hire FM > IM (unless they can co-cover a shift with a peds person).
Culture and learning environment
Some of my favorite people and best doctors that I know are IM. However, IM strongly adheres to its roots of a culture of hierarchy. So you will encounter more competitive and condescending IM residents/fellows/attendings. I have witnessed one too many IM attendings/specialists who are harsh, and unprofessional towards others. One positive about IM docs occasionally being "tough" is that they hold each other to higher standards. I think this culture and approach to medicine results in very competent IM doctors as a whole. FM residents are seldom gunners. FM attendings and Peds attendings are typically the nicest people. They typically teach and grow their residents using positive reinforcement, rather than criticism. So it depends on what learning environment you want to be in. Culture is important. I am the best version of myself when I am in an environment of positive reinforcement, wellness, and kindness. I love the people I work with, and this gives me energy to keep reading, learning, and working hard. I shut down when I am criticized. In FM, you will run into the occasional lazy FM resident/doc. We have all seen that one FM doc who does the bare minimum! This is annoying and gives FM a bad name (just like IM gunners give IM a bad name). So contemplate about which kinds of cultures are important for your growth and satisfaction. Whatever you decide, if you work hard, and treat other doctors with respect, then you will be respected and appreciated.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, if you look at the data, the top 2 in-demand specialties are 1) FM, and then 2) primary-care IM.Just to push back a bit on this, while there is some saturation in big cities for good hospitalist jobs, the primary care IM job market is just as wide open as FM, with massive demand from Manhattan to Dodge City. A large amount of jobs are happy to take either FM or IM interchangeably too.
The IM disadvantage is that very rural areas prefer FM so that you can cover peds and OB.
Yeah, I think the data from recruitment firms can be misleading. My observations are based on my own job searches and what my senior residents are saying.Thank you for your comment. Yes, if you look at the data, the top 2 in-demand specialties are 1) FM, and then 2) primary-care IM.
My PGY3 and recent-grad IM colleagues who have been signing hospitalist contracts are usually forced to move outside of the city. But looking at the data, primary care jobs in desirable cities look sublime for both primary care FM and IM.
Be careful though interpreting the data. The #3 in demand specialty is EM. But if you ask any PGY3 or grad EM, they will tell you that it is impossible to land a job inside of a desirable city because of the EM boom. Most are forced an hour outside of the city for the first job.
There isn’t an abundance of IM docs it’s just that hospitalist jobs are tightening up. Primary care for IM is still wide open everywhere.Very insightful question @garrettp. I like where your head is at. This is something that I struggled with too when I was between IM and FM. To summarize the biggest difference in two words: "Job Flexibility"
First I will address training and job placement.
(I am not doing IM justice, and what I am about to say is a gross simplification) but IM opens two major career paths. Generalist, and specialist. I would say that if you already know that you want to specialize in 1 field, then go IM. For example, if you are passionate about treating (e.g. Infectious Disease cases) and really enjoy homing in on 1 specialty then it makes sense to pursue IM. You will be an "expert", and that means that the buck stops with your decision on a treatment plan. People will defer to (and appreciate) your judgement most of the time. You can always go into IM, and if you decide that you don't really want to focus on 1 subject, then pursue a generalist track and you can either work as an internist in the clinic, or as a hospitalist. I will say that there is 1 major disadvantage of going into IM. The jobs are saturated in desirable cities. I know a lot of IM people who are a little concerned that they may have to get their first job 30-60 mins outside of a desirable city.
FM training can be looked at as rural vs urban. Rural programs offer full scope training, some programs teach you to perform c-sections, appendectomies, colonoscopies, contraception, newborn care ect... (There are even some programs up in Alaska where they fly you on a helicopter to rural villages to treat people who see a doctor once a year.) Urban programs tend to prepare you for common chronic disease that saturates a city. It is a misnomer when medical students make the assumption that FM doctors are not experts, but just a "jacks-of-all-trades"... In reality, in the urban environments FM docs are specialists in common problems. You become an "expert" in common problems like Asthma, COPD, Care of Children and elderly, depression, diabetes, public health, heart disease, hypertension, preventative care, women's health, hyperlipidemia, then then you have a jack-of-all-trades understanding about everything else in medicine like rheum, derm, surgery, ICU, hospitalist ect... You can also do a fellowship if you desire to become a specialist in just 1 thing like sports medicine, palliative care, academics ect. This translates into Family medicine having tremendous job security. Family Medicine is the #1 in demand specialty in the United States. A Major Advantage of FM is that it is easy for FM doctors to find jobs in desirable cities, and if you want to move out to the rural midwest and make 400k+ as an FM doc, you can do that too. You could make a point that "IM generalists" are also specialists in common problems (minus peds). But because of the shortage of FM docs and abundance of IM docs, the job markets look different coming out of training.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness
I actually don't know a whole lot about PSLF for IM physicians. I do know that FM has no trouble finding training and jobs that qualify for PSLF. I know that my EM buddies are concerned that nearly every EM group is private, and therefor nor eligible for PSLF. Whereas, there is an abundance of PSLF jobs for FM. I would imagine that there are many PSLF jobs available for IM, and that might actually work out really well if you are flexible about moving. For example if you do 3 years of IM, and then 2-3 years of fellowship, you would be about halfway done with payment for 10 year PSLF (if you matched at a institution that qualifies). In order to get your 10 years, you would then just have to move somewhere and work for a 501(c)(3) employer for 4-5 more years and you are done. But this kindof relates to the previous point about job demand. It is just going to be a lot easier as an FM doc to find these kind of jobs in the desirable cities.
Moonlighting.
FM docs are trained in peds, and usually peds ER. This means that FM docs can moonlight as residents and even work for urgent cares as first job if desirable. IM docs aren't experts in treating kids, so urgent cares prefer to hire FM > IM (unless they can co-cover a shift with a peds person).
Culture and learning environment
Some of my favorite people and best doctors that I know are IM. However, IM strongly adheres to its roots of a culture of hierarchy. So you will encounter more competitive and condescending IM residents/fellows/attendings. I have witnessed one too many IM attendings/specialists who are harsh, and unprofessional towards others. One positive about IM docs occasionally being "tough" is that they hold each other to higher standards. I think this culture and approach to medicine results in very competent IM doctors as a whole. FM residents are seldom gunners. FM attendings and Peds attendings are typically the nicest people. They typically teach and grow their residents using positive reinforcement, rather than criticism. So it depends on what learning environment you want to be in. Culture is important. I am the best version of myself when I am in an environment of positive reinforcement, wellness, and kindness. I love the people I work with, and this gives me energy to keep reading, learning, and working hard. I shut down when I am criticized. In FM, you will run into the occasional lazy FM resident/doc. We have all seen that one FM doc who does the bare minimum! This is annoying and gives FM a bad name (just like IM gunners give IM a bad name). So contemplate about which kinds of cultures are important for your growth and satisfaction. Whatever you decide, if you work hard, and treat other doctors with respect, then you will be respected and appreciated.