Fellowship Question - No RRA

[ROBPOD]

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Quick question here - Let's say I'm a podiatry resident and I only have the PMSR with only the forefoot surgery certificate (No RRA). Would I be eligible to apply for reconstructive rearfoot surgery fellowships (ACFAS or CPME approved or both)?

Also, if eligible what would be the potential outcomes after completing fellowship - would a RRA certification be granted? Would you be able to sit for rearfoot ABPS boards after getting your numbers? Does it even matter? - you would still be granted privileges based on state/hospital legislation... Any input would be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[ldsrmdude]

If your residency doesn't grant the ability to sit for the RRA certification and only for the foot certification, then a fellowship won't grant you that opportunity, as far as I know. I think you'd probably have a difficult time getting a fellowship coming from a program that didn't offer the RRA, but I don't know why you wouldn't be eligible. I have a good friend applying and interviewing for fellowships currently, and in talking with him, it's pretty clear that most candidates for the fellowships aren't looking to make up for deficiencies from their residencies as they are all mostly coming from well-respected programs that tend to graduate quality surgeons.

 

[JR2011]

If your residency doesn't grant the ability to sit for the RRA certification and only for the foot certification, then a fellowship won't grant you that opportunity, as far as I know. I think you'd probably have a difficult time getting a fellowship coming from a program that didn't offer the RRA, but I don't know why you wouldn't be eligible. I have a good friend applying and interviewing for fellowships currently, and in talking with him, it's pretty clear that most candidates for the fellowships aren't looking to make up for deficiencies from their residencies as they are all mostly coming from well-respected programs that tend to graduate quality surgeons.

^ This. Reconstructive fellowships in our profession are quite competitive and yes I'd say the ones doing these don't NEED them.

 

[JR2011]

Mendocino and Justin Fleming, both directors have solid high volume residency programs, have ACFAS recognized fellowships and did a ACFAS webcast a couple months ago stating that quality applicants who can handle their fellowships were hard to come by. It appears directors only want to train residents who have the baseline skills they are looking for. Not make up for their deficiencies. Mendo even said that some the applicants couldn't even keep up with his residents. Mendo ended up not taking anyone for the fellowship this year.

When I first heard about fellowships I really thought they were being created to assist residents acquire training they didn't receive during their formal residency training. Not further supplement great residency training. Kind of defeats the purpose IMO. I feel this is becoming another way individuals can further distinguish themselves from the their peers, thinking their "elite". Also I feel more and more fellowships are being created because big egos want to show everyone they have a "fellowship".

I've been to 3 programs that have fellowship programs affiliated with them and personally I think doing a fellowship with a residency program attached is a terrible idea. The Fellow essentially takes training away from the senior residents and I've seen nothing but animosity from the residents towards the fellow. Nobody bows down to the fellow. Doing a fellowship where you only work with attendings and no other residents is the best way.

Fellowship opinions are like butts, everyone has them.

Having said that, I agree. I get the argument that concomitant residency/ fellowship may offer some degree of symbiotic relationship. However, I hate the idea of either sides training being diluted. East coast is different but there is a reason why top residencies in northwest and west coast don't have fellowships alongside residency. They do not want to dilute resident training because in doing so they'd lose their edge of offering superior surgical training.
I don't doubt that those programs offer a good training potential but I agree I would not consider even interviewing at these fellowships. In my opinion the best and most competitive fellowships are the few reconstructive surgery ones NOT associated with residencies or only associated at a distance.
Weather ego driven or not, I don't think anyone should down talk those that seek to advance their training and devote hard work for an additional year after residency. I think QUALITY fellowships are great for the profession, but they sure would make more sense once the residency shortage is fixed.

 

[edog10]

Ankle Breaker the 4th year pod student knows all...yee old wise man with wee credentials.

 

[ROBPOD]

I appreciate the help everyone. Thank you for your responses. I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this topic so here is another q if you don't mind: What do you all think of unaccredited fellowships? What are some of the positives or negatives?

 

[ldsrmdude]

I can't think of too many positives besides the obvious one, that it's another year of training if that is something you are looking for. It's tougher to find info out about the unaccredited fellowships, from my experience, because there isn't a centralized place you can find out about them (as there is with the ACFAS website for accredited fellowships). The thought has crossed my mind to look into unaccredited fellowships, but I always pause and wonder why they aren't accredited. I'm sure some of them have legitimate reasons why it's easier to be unaccredited. I think that between the ACFAS accredited fellowships for surgery and the APMA accredited ones for other things (infectious disease, wound care, dermatology, etc), there isn't much need for me at least to look outside the accredited fellowships.

 

[JR2011]

I appreciate the help everyone. Thank you for your responses. I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this topic so here is another q if you don't mind: What do you all think of unaccredited fellowships? What are some of the positives or negatives?

I guess I'd really have to ask myself Why I want a fellowship fist off. If a program is unaccredited, I'd certainly ask them why. The well known, and established/ accredited fellowships seem to be the more competitive and seem to offer the better training opportunities. Next, you have to visit the places you are interested. I'd want to hear from the program as far as the positives and negatives to accreditation. Depending on what you want out of it, I think there are some fellowships that could certainly be a huge waste of a year.

 

[PMSIII]

I can't think of too many positives besides the obvious one, that it's another year of training if that is something you are looking for. It's tougher to find info out about the unaccredited fellowships, from my experience, because there isn't a centralized place you can find out about them (as there is with the ACFAS website for accredited fellowships). The thought has crossed my mind to look into unaccredited fellowships, but I always pause and wonder why they aren't accredited. I'm sure some of them have legitimate reasons why it's easier to be unaccredited. I think that between the ACFAS accredited fellowships for surgery and the APMA accredited ones for other things (infectious disease, wound care, dermatology, etc), there isn't much need for me at least to look outside the accredited fellowships.

The ACFAS does not accredit the fellowships. They "recognize" them which in the big picture does not mean much. The only "accredited" fellowships are the APMA ones listed because they are CPME-approved. Now, does all of this matter in Podiatry? Not really. DPM fellowships are essentially apprenticeships for a year that offer you the opportunity of more training, experience, and research if this is what you're looking for. In no way do "unaccredited" fellowships affect your overall opportunities, experience, etc. As previously mentioned in other threads/topics, fellowships in the DPM community are essentially what you make out of them. The purpose of them is to offer you an opportunity to expand different facets of your training - practice management, OR-skills, efficiency, etc.

 

[ldsrmdude]

The ACFAS does not accredit the fellowships. They "recognize" them which in the big picture does not mean much. The only "accredited" fellowships are the APMA ones listed because they are CPME-approved. Now, does all of this matter in Podiatry? Not really. DPM fellowships are essentially apprenticeships for a year that offer you the opportunity of more training, experience, and research if this is what you're looking for. In no way do "unaccredited" fellowships affect your overall opportunities, experience, etc. As previously mentioned in other threads/topics, fellowships in the DPM community are essentially what you make out of them. The purpose of them is to offer you an opportunity to expand different facets of your training - practice management, OR-skills, efficiency, etc.

Thank you for the clarification on that. You're the perfect person to ask since you completed a fellowship recently. Do you think that in general the recognized fellowships tend to be the higher quality ones? I feel like they tend to be, but that could be mostly because I know more about them.

 

[JR2011]

The ACFAS does not accredit the fellowships. They "recognize" them which in the big picture does not mean much. The only "accredited" fellowships are the APMA ones listed because they are CPME-approved. Now, does all of this matter in Podiatry? Not really. DPM fellowships are essentially apprenticeships for a year that offer you the opportunity of more training, experience, and research if this is what you're looking for. In no way do "unaccredited" fellowships affect your overall opportunities, experience, etc. As previously mentioned in other threads/topics, fellowships in the DPM community are essentially what you make out of them. The purpose of them is to offer you an opportunity to expand different facets of your training - practice management, OR-skills, efficiency, etc.

Which fellowship did you complete?

 

[Toxic Avenger]

The ACFAS does not accredit the fellowships. They "recognize" them which in the big picture does not mean much. The only "accredited" fellowships are the APMA ones listed because they are CPME-approved. Now, does all of this matter in Podiatry? Not really. DPM fellowships are essentially apprenticeships for a year that offer you the opportunity of more training, experience, and research if this is what you're looking for. In no way do "unaccredited" fellowships affect your overall opportunities, experience, etc. As previously mentioned in other threads/topics, fellowships in the DPM community are essentially what you make out of them. The purpose of them is to offer you an opportunity to expand different facets of your training - practice management, OR-skills, efficiency, etc.

I guess I'd really have to ask myself Why I want a fellowship fist off. If a program is unaccredited, I'd certainly ask them why. The well known, and established/ accredited fellowships seem to be the more competitive and seem to offer the better training opportunities. Next, you have to visit the places you are interested. I'd want to hear from the program as far as the positives and negatives to accreditation. Depending on what you want out of it, I think there are some fellowships that could certainly be a huge waste of a year.

Here is an example of an unaccredited fellowship that was posted in a daily podiatry blast email:

DIABETES MANAGEMENT FELLOWSHIP - CENTRAL KENTUCKY

CVs and letters of interest are being accepted now for the most unique and well-rounded fellowship in podiatric medicine. This non-accredited, 1-year fellowship starts in July of 2014 and offers a wide variety of training opportunities that focus on diabetes, including diverse pathologies and unique medical and surgical opportunities. Regular surgical case load, intensive practice management, and the best prep for real world practice. Work with our on-staff certified orthotist, physical therapist, shoe store staff, MRI director, etc. Generous stipend, benefits, and free housing. Learn more at www.myhappyfoot.com (click the Fellowship Tab). Send CVs to [email protected].

Why would one hire new associates when one can hire a "fellow" for $50k?

 

[JR2011]

Here is an example of an unaccredited fellowship that was posted in a daily podiatry blast email:

DIABETES MANAGEMENT FELLOWSHIP - CENTRAL KENTUCKY

CVs and letters of interest are being accepted now for the most unique and well-rounded fellowship in podiatric medicine. This non-accredited, 1-year fellowship starts in July of 2014 and offers a wide variety of training opportunities that focus on diabetes, including diverse pathologies and unique medical and surgical opportunities. Regular surgical case load, intensive practice management, and the best prep for real world practice. Work with our on-staff certified orthotist, physical therapist, shoe store staff, MRI director, etc. Generous stipend, benefits, and free housing. Learn more at www.myhappyfoot.com (click the Fellowship Tab). Send CVs to [email protected].

Why would one hire new associates when one can hire a "fellow" for $50k?

This is one reason why I'd certainly want an ACFAS approval for my fellowship. I think ACFAS does a decent job weeding out the cheap labor spots that really don't add much beyond residency. Although I don't know anything about this fellowship or it's drawbacks, I'd guess there is a reason it's not approved by ACFAS.