First year Job contract language

[deleted684261]

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[Direct Laryngoscopy]

Don't sign it until it's spelled out in the contract. Never settle or be afraid to get what you think you deserve. If they say no, then on to the next. It's always business, never personal.

Good luck.

 

[ChiDO]

I'm in the same shoes as you. Just received my first contract and went over it with a lawyer this week. I'd recommend getting your own lawyer to look over the contract if you're serious and going to go ahead with this group. Shoot me a PM if you need a recommendation.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I have been looking for a job and got an offer from a private group in the South. When I went over the contract, I didn't see any language mentioning progression toward partnership despite the fact that I was told in multiple occasions the details of it (2 years, salary increase this much, that much more vacation, etc etc) in written correspondence as well as phone and interview conversations? Wondering if it's unusual or a red flag? Or maybe they are not that interested in me? Anyone feel free to give me your two cents .....

Do you know any members of the group that you can talk to? Why not just ask the contact person for the group?

I would want the salary and vacation spelled out although sometimes vacation can be a bit vague if only because unexpected short staffing can occur which necessitates that everyone work harder.

I wouldn't worry too much about not mentioning much about progression towards partnership. You may be taking a risk on the group and they may be taking one on you. It goes both ways. What if you turn out to be a dud (no offense)?

I would try to talk to the last guy that made partner and if possible the last guy (if there is one) that didn't make partner.

If the group is on the up and up I wouldn't worry too much. If they have a history of being shady then buyer beware.

 

[nimbus]

IME, one year employment contracts are standard with no mention of progression to partnership. More than likely they give the same contract to everyone. All 3 PP groups I’ve been in only had one-year contracts and they all fulfilled their verbal promises.

I don’t consider it unusual or a red flag. In my current contract, our compensation formula is spelled out but things like vacation, call schedule, work hours, etc. are not. Never has. And it’s very flexible. I actually think some things are better left out of a contract for both parties and like many things in life you just go with the flow. If it’s a good match both parties will want things to continue. If not you’ll be happy the contract is only one year. More important than any contract is the group’s reputation for fairness. Do some homework.

 

[GA8314]

Very few groups will give you accurate information on partner income, full scope of benefits, and actual vacation numbers. You will get details on your partner TRACK contract, but there is risk (as others have said) which goes both ways. I can't imagine us telling a candidate what we earn and the full scope of our situation. Perhaps a close approximation in somewhat vague terms, but details? No.

 

[Man o War]

There should be some mention of partnership track somewhere in the contract that spells out the basics- what year 1 salary is, year 2, etc., and length of the track. I would NOT expect there to be specific criteria listed to make partner or what your salary will be after you make partner. In my group, this is variable depending upon how well we do on collections, so we couldn't give you that number even if we wanted to. We do give all our prospective candidates a general range to expect, but we don't put it in the contract. I personally would not sign a partner TRACK contract unless there was some mention of the general framework of the track including vacation time and all promised benefits. A partner contract is different, because as alluded to above, once you are a profit sharing partner, you may have to forego some vacation for unexpected things, like partners needing emergency surgery, accidents, etc.

 

[deleted684261]

Thanks for the reply guys ....I guess I will have to talk to the group about lack of language.

If the group is unwilling to change the contract, is that a deal breaker for you guys? Let's say that the job/'group is a good one? From what I gather, the group is a fair group. Everyone had made partner in their history (except for one) and they are kind of hiring due to increased volume and people retiring. Pay and vacation once you make parter are pretty good, never seen or heard a better offer talking to other colleagues. Good insurance mix. The group doesn't have any "bad" reputation that I know about. So give the above information, will you just get your foot in the door and just hustle your way to partnership? Or you say "No way Jose."

My gut feeling is telling to take the plunge regardless but I don't want to do anything stupid either......

 

[nimbus]

After you show up and they like you and want to keep you, things will work out. If they don’t like you they will get rid of you regardless of what the contract says.

 

[deleted684261]

After you show up and they like you and want to keep you, things will work out. If they don’t like you they will get rid of you regardless of what the contract says.

Hey nimbus, thank you. Just a side question, from your experience is it common for a group to hire multiple people with only intention of making one of them partner? In the sense of hedging their bets just in case they don't end up liking a new hire?

 

[nimbus]

Hey nimbus, thank you. Just a side question, from your experience is it common for a group to hire multiple people with only intention of making one of them partner? In the sense of hedging their bets just in case they don't end up liking a new hire?

Not in my experience. I think most groups hire people they like and hope they stay a long time. It takes excessive time and resources to operate a revolving door practice.

 

[deleted684261]

Not in my experience. I think most groups hire people they like and hope they stay a long time. It takes excessive time and resources to operate a revolving door practice.

thanks

 

[IlDestriero]

I’m surprised people are so vague about what’s at the end of the partnership track rainbow.
Both partnership track jobs I looked at were very transparent about actual details after they offered me the job. Though one was clearly confidential as they had non partner track people as well. You can be vague, but if you’re too opaque, people like me aren’t going to be comfortable with “you’ll be very pleased” “generous” etc instead of details.
Hell, the AMCs advertise their generous income and above average time off.
Oddly one academic place had confidential financial details as well, but they did share them when they offered me the job.


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Il Destriero

 

[IlDestriero]

One place actually showed me an excel spreadsheet with days worked, units, vacation, income and bonus for all the partners for the previous 2 years. That’s transparency.


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Il Destriero

 

[Psai]

One place actually showed me an excel spreadsheet with days worked, units, vacation, income and bonus for all the partners for the previous 2 years. That’s transparency.


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Il Destriero

Gonna need an intro to this group

 

[B-Bone]

Our group also does this. People we offer a job get to see the whole shebang. W2, vacation, schedule, etc. who would join a group, particularly with a year’s-long partnership track, without knowing what you’re getting into?

 

[nimbus]

Our group also does this. People we offer a job get to see the whole shebang. W2, vacation, schedule, etc. who would join a group, particularly with a year’s-long partnership track, without knowing what you’re getting into?

Sounds like OP has all this information. It’s just not in the contract. My group is also very transparent but there are lots of things not in the contract.

 

[B-Bone]

Sounds like OP has all this information. It’s just not in the contract. My group is also very transparent but there are lots of things not in the contract.

Oops. I also meant that this is in the contract as well. Our partnership is structured so that junior partners get a guaranteed base salary plus a percentage of the partner bonus (depending on how far they are along in the track). Vacation is a guaranteed number of weeks (increasing as you progress). So while partner bonus is flexible (based on collections each month) and partner vacation is variable (depending on service commitments and staffing levels), junior partners have their compensation/vacation spelled out in their contract. Again, why you would sign up for a job without this stuff is beyond me.

 

[deleted684261]

Oops. I also meant that this is in the contract as well. Our partnership is structured so that junior partners get a guaranteed base salary plus a percentage of the partner bonus (depending on how far they are along in the track). Vacation is a guaranteed number of weeks (increasing as you progress). So while partner bonus is flexible (based on collections each month) and partner vacation is variable (depending on service commitments and staffing levels), junior partners have their compensation/vacation spelled out in their contract. Again, why you would sign up for a job without this stuff is beyond me.

Right. Only reason I am considering is people were genuine and monies and vacation once parter is pretty good. Better than other offers I have gotten. From what I was told in terms of details, it sounds like a good job and a good group. I know my frist year salary and vacation. But comes next year, I am suppose to get an 100, 000 dollars increase in salary and 4 weeks increase in vacation (per what they told me) but no guarantee in contract. This leave me in a vulnerable situation where comes the time for 2nd year contract-- when I already put in one year of working with low pay (my buy in)--- and they low ball me lower than promised increase in pay and vacation etc.

I mean if you were me and when they offer 2nd year contract, will you hold them to their "words" ? will you walk away if they only increase your salary by lets say 80,000 and gives you 3 weeks instead of 4 weeks. It's all about sunk costs I guess .....

I mean I don't think I am a bad anesthesiologist. Did well in a big residency and doing well so far per my feedback in cardiac fellowship as well. But still ........

 

[rakotomazoto]

I recently signed my first contract after interviewing at 3 groups. The place I went with had me sign a non-disclosure agreement and then the business manager (one of the partners) opened his excel spreadsheets and showed me everything for the last few years: salaries, retirement contributions, overhead (small office with staff who do internal billing). Contract spells out partnership, salary, vacation, you name it. All spelled out in detail. Overall an old group (has existed for decades) but with a wave of retirement over the past 5-8 years, currently a young group in regards to the average age of the partners. All young partners are very happy. Honestly, all 3 places I interviewed were great, but this one particularly stood out.

After reading everyone's stories on here over the past few years, I felt very blessed to find a great job thanks to residency alumni connections. All of that NOT complaining paid off. Two of the groups (including the one I signed with) contacted me after they had received my name from one of my attendings.

I don't want to doubt or diminish the unfortunate circumstances that are out there, but I was honestly surprised at how easy and positive my job search was. I would echo the much more seasoned advice of those with more experience on here who urge people to have things spelled out in the contract as much as possible before signing, although I can appreciate that you might be pressured for personal or other reasons to consider jobs where they are unwilling to provide that. Best of luck to everyone on the job search!

 

[Psai]

I recently signed my first contract after interviewing at 3 groups. The place I went with had me sign a non-disclosure agreement and then the business manager (one of the partners) opened his excel spreadsheets and showed me everything for the last few years: salaries, retirement contributions, overhead (small office with staff who do internal billing). Contract spells out partnership, salary, vacation, you name it. All spelled out in detail. Overall an old group (has existed for decades) but with a wave of retirement over the past 5-8 years, currently a young group in regards to the average age of the partners. All young partners are very happy. Honestly, all 3 places I interviewed were great, but this one particularly stood out.

After reading everyone's stories on here over the past few years, I felt very blessed to find a great job thanks to residency alumni connections. All of that NOT complaining paid off. Two of the groups (including the one I signed with) contacted me after they had received my name from one of my attendings.

I don't want to doubt or diminish the unfortunate circumstances that are out there, but I was honestly surprised at how easy and positive my job search was. I would echo the much more seasoned advice of those with more experience on here who urge people to have things spelled out in the contract as much as possible before signing, although I can appreciate that you might be pressured for personal or other reasons to consider jobs where they are unwilling to provide that. Best of luck to everyone on the job search!

Note to self: stop complaining

 

[nimbus]

I recently signed my first contract after interviewing at 3 groups. The place I went with had me sign a non-disclosure agreement and then the business manager (one of the partners) opened his excel spreadsheets and showed me everything for the last few years: salaries, retirement contributions, overhead (small office with staff who do internal billing). Contract spells out partnership, salary, vacation, you name it. All spelled out in detail. Overall an old group (has existed for decades) but with a wave of retirement over the past 5-8 years, currently a young group in regards to the average age of the partners. All young partners are very happy. Honestly, all 3 places I interviewed were great, but this one particularly stood out.

After reading everyone's stories on here over the past few years, I felt very blessed to find a great job thanks to residency alumni connections. All of that NOT complaining paid off. Two of the groups (including the one I signed with) contacted me after they had received my name from one of my attendings.

I don't want to doubt or diminish the unfortunate circumstances that are out there, but I was honestly surprised at how easy and positive my job search was. I would echo the much more seasoned advice of those with more experience on here who urge people to have things spelled out in the contract as much as possible before signing, although I can appreciate that you might be pressured for personal or other reasons to consider jobs where they are unwilling to provide that. Best of luck to everyone on the job search!

This is what happens to a lot of people. It’s not by chance.