FNP to MD

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The FNP curricula I have seen are not good prep for the first two years of med school. M1&2 are meant as scientific foundation, less clinical, because many MD students will be researchers as well as clinicians. I know a few RNs who went MD and they had problems when they tried to rely on their experience for the science-heavy coursework. Once they were M3s on clinical rotations, they were stars.

If you have not taken the MCAT, then do a compete review of basic sciences - experience is not tested on MCAT. If you have, then take a medical biochem course before you start. I did and it helped me tremendously in all the course work. When people fail med school, biochem is the frequent cause. A lot of med school is memorization, and it just has to be done. M3&4 years are for learning to think clinically.
 
That's absolute BS. As an MD, I can tell you firsthand that the first two years are NOT meant for research. No part of the MD curriculum is research-oriented. Your first two years are glorified undergrad classes focused on the biomed sciences, then the rest is clinical/hands-on stuff. An MD is a professional degree -- designed for clinical practice, NOT for research.

It's true, however, nursing school and MSN programs are usually not as biomed science-laden as med school. An MSN/NP would be a great background for medical school, but unfortunately, you'll have to start from scratch just like any other RN out there. If you were a PharmD, dentist, vet, pod, you might be able to waive out of the first year of an MD/DO program as they are usually quite similar in other professional programs, but not nursing.

As an NP, you'd have to take the MCAT and do the whole MD program (4 years). It might be better to get a DNP and continue working as an NP, unless you're young and have plenty of money at your disposal.
 
I have no desire to be a DNP. The only reason to get that degree is to teach, it does not give you any more freedom. I know I will have to go the full fours years. I am cool with that. I don't have lots of money to spend on med school but hey thats what loans are for.
 
Lighten up prozac, or take another and learn some courtesy.

Carolinagirl I think you are right that DNP is selflimiting. MD/DO there are no limits to what you can do either clinically or in research and combined. Do what you want to do.

If a med student wishes to memorize the basics as a glorified undergrad course, they can get by. But most program allows you to explore endless research and clinical opporunities If a med student wants to learn and research, then M1&2 will be good preparation. You can participate in surgeries or join active research projects. Or, you can sit in the back of the OR or get coffee for the lab director to get your name on the articles.

As always the student determines how much they will learn or experience. Whereas other students binge study for exams in between binge drinking.

(I am amazed that anonymity in these forums seems to give license to otherwise mature adults to be condescending and insulting.)
 
One of my attendings as a resident was a former NP that went to medical school.

While the curriculum at RN and NP programs WILL NOT prepare you for M1 and M2 years, refresher courses such as biochemistry or anatomy may help. It is not a question of what you do today, but rather what kind of determined and resourceful person you can become when faced with a challenge.
 
DogFaceMedic said:
Lighten up prozac, or take another and learn some courtesy.

Carolinagirl I think you are right that DNP is selflimiting. MD/DO there are no limits to what you can do either clinically or in research and combined. Do what you want to do.

If a med student wishes to memorize the basics as a glorified undergrad course, they can get by. But most program allows you to explore endless research and clinical opporunities If a med student wants to learn and research, then M1&2 will be good preparation.
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I agree with Prozac. Physicians (a professional non-research focused degree), as a whole, aren't known for being great researchers. First two years of med school are undergrad courses with a clinical focus. If you want to be a researcher, do a MSTP or a PhD.
 
To the OP: you may not be ahead of the game in sciences, but you'll probably do well in the clinical portion - you most likely know the ins and outs of H&Ps and such 🙂
 
Has anyone ever heard of a FNP to MD program? I have heard of such a program. Possibly in Puerto Rico? Thanks.
 
MDwanttobe said:
Has anyone ever heard of a FNP to MD program? I have heard of such a program. Possibly in Puerto Rico? Thanks.
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There are some in the Caribbean. Very shady. I would be very skeptical of any MD program that gives you advanced standing. There can be serious issues with licensure in the US.

If you want to be a physician, just do it. Go to a decent Caribbean school if you have to. There aren't any shortcuts.

Also, in my opinion, NP school will not really help you in the first two years of medical school or on the boards. I can't see what they could give you advanced credit for. The education is completely different.
 
I know at GW, the NP's take the exact same Introduction to Clinical Medicine, Pathology and Pharmacology courses. I think you'll be well prepared in both the scientific arena and the clinical arena.

Best of luck!
 
I was a PA before med school. PA school has a significantly greater amount of science courses than NP school, but clinicals are somewhat similar. Being a PA helped me on literally every exam I ever took in med school, and on all steps of the boards. It allowed me to study about 1/3 less I would gather than the average student, and it allowed me to graduate top 10% and do the same on boards. In the end though, the first 2 years of medical school are tough and even a physician going back and taking them would be difficult. It is painful and you really better know what you are getting into. 40 horu study weeks easily and sometimes 2-3 days straight of binge studying per month for major exams.
 
corpsmanUP said:
PA school has a significantly greater amount of science courses than NP school, but clinicals are somewhat similar. QUOTE]

have you forgotten pa school already?
pa school clinicals= 2200+ hrs or so. 52-54 weeks full time
np school clinicals 500-800 hrs or so. most can be completed while working part time as an rn on the side.

not even close to similar.....
I just had a pa and an np student at the same time. the pa student did 200 hrs of em rotation while the np student did 45.

(and before all the np's start flaming me, please list an np program(with link) with more than 1500 hrs of clinicals during the clinical year, and no you can't count your primary rn program hours or I can count my medic program hours and we are back at the same point.... ).
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emedpa said:
corpsmanUP said:
PA school has a significantly greater amount of science courses than NP school, but clinicals are somewhat similar. QUOTE]

have you forgotten pa school already?
pa school clinicals= 2200+ hrs or so. 52-54 weeks full time
np school clinicals 500-800 hrs or so. most can be completed while working part time as an rn on the side.

not even close to similar.....
I just had a pa and an np student at the same time. the pa student did 200 hrs of em rotation while the np student did 45.

(and before all the np's start flaming me, please list an np program(with link) with more than 1500 hrs of clinicals during the clinical year, and no you can't count your primary rn program hours or I can count my medic program hours and we are back at the same point.... ).
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Agreed.....PA school and NP school are NOT equal. Nurses seem to believe that medicine and nursing are completely separate and thus must be controlled by different boards. Nurses must manage nurses and not folks trained in the medical model.

Nurse training, including NP training, is deficient in science education when you compare it to clinicians trained in the medical model. In addition, NP's have VERY LIMITED clinical training as a healthcare provider as EMEDPA pointed out. This isn't opinion, but fact. If you are trained as a nurse, why would you expect to have advanced standing in medical programs?
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NP education is designed to build off of what was learned during the students RN education. That is whay an RN is required before applying to any NP program. PA school does not require any previous certifications or licensure or clinical training. The requirement for most PA schools is that the students have some experience in health care but that is not specifically defined. In fact, one of the more prominant PA schools in my area does not even require a bachelor's degree prior to matriculation.

PA school is designed to develop a competant practitioner and presumes to start from scratch and teach the student everything they need to know in the 2-2.5 years of the program. NPs are expected to have done many hours of clinical already and their curriculum takes advantage of this. Why waste clinical days teaching an RN how to start an IV? 2200 hrs is what is needed to teach somone from scratch how to be a midlevel practitioner. NPs dont need as much time because we are not supposed to be starting from scratch.

You say dont mention the hours as an RN as part of clinical training, but they cant be separated. They are intertwined and those hours are a prereq to np school. Your experience prior to becoming a PA, though valuable and useful to you, are not a requirement of of PA school.

Both eduacational routes produce a capable and competant practitioner but do so by different methods, thus direct comparrison between the two is not practical.

It is correct that nursing and medicine are two different professions, so advanced standing in based on experience in either proefession would not make sense.
 
the vast majority of pa programs (125/140) require clinical experience prior to pa school. many state the # of hrs >1000 or more. my local pa program requires a min of 4000 hrs at the level of emt, rn, or rt prior to application.
rn training and midlevel training are not the same. the hrs are not equivalent.
also consider the many direct entry np programs. a bs degree in anything is acceptable as long as prereqs are met. after 3 yrs a history major is an np without ever having to work as an rn aside from rn clinicals yr 1.
a question- until recently 30% of all pa's were former rn's-
is an rn who goes to pa school better prepared to practice medicine than the same rn if they went to an np program?
your prior logic would argue that this is so.
 
An RN who goes to PA school is not the same as an RN going to NP school. As i mentioned, NP school is designed to build off of the experience and clinicals of RN education. PA school does not try to build off of the RN's prior education. Its nonsense to ask if an RN is better prepared if they choose 1 route or the other. If an RN chooses to attend PA school then they, just like any other applicant, must start from scratch.

Im sure your PA school was difficult to get into and hard to graduate from, but not every school will share those standards. The same can be said be said of the NP profession and it is unfortunate that there are schools that allow students to graduate by meeting the minimum legal requirements. Any good NP program will be difficult to get into and require lots of hard study. Like most good NP programs, entry into mine required minimum of 1 year practice as an RN in an acute care setting and i will have over a thousand clinical hours within the program when im done.

As an asside, the same PA program i mentioned before is housed within the college of allied health. The same school houses the nursing department. The minimum GPA for their PA program is 2.75, while entry to the msn program requires a 3.0
 
sounds like you are in an excellent program.
I would argue that pa school does build on prior training and education in that a student with prior experience does much more than the minimum required on clinicals. while some of my less experienced classmates were learning how to start iv's and draw blood I quickly demonstrated proficiency at this and was allowed to progress to central lines, cut downs, dpl's, chest tubes, etc. my trauma surgery eval stated " emedpa is worth his weight in 4th yr medstudents" which I took as a compliment. my trauma ctr emergency med eval stated" emedpa is better at em right from the start than many of our pgy-1 housestaff". a derfinite compliment and something I could not have garnered without my prior training and experience as a paramedic.
a well prepared pa student( or np student I imagine) does much better in school both on the didactic component as well as in clinicals.
every pa student does have to demonstrate a min competency at didactic and clinical components but those with prior significant experience get much more out of their education.
it is a shame that some pa and some np programs are creating shortcuts to allow those without experience to gain entry right out of undergraduate training. on this you and I are in full agreement. peace-e
 
Originally posted by dqbanrn: NP education is designed to build off of what was learned during the students RN education. That is whay an RN is required before applying to any NP program.

That right. The problem is nursing education is lacking in the basic clinical sciences. As it has been described, nurses learn to recognize "red flags" and treat common problems. They don't have generalist training as a medical provider. Essentially, an NP is a better trained triage nurse who treats common problems.

PA school does not require any previous certifications or licensure or clinical training. The requirement for most PA schools is that the students have some experience in health care but that is not specifically defined. In fact, one of the more prominant PA schools in my area does not even require a bachelor's degree prior to matriculation.

Really....also, medical school does not require a bachelors either! So what. Most PA programs DO require previous healthcare experience. Better put, what you learn as a nurse might help you in your training as an NP, but would provide little to no help in your training as a PA.


PA school is designed to develop a competant practitioner and presumes to start from scratch and teach the student everything they need to know in the 2-2.5 years of the program. NPs are expected to have done many hours of clinical already and their curriculum takes advantage of this. Why waste clinical days teaching an RN how to start an IV? 2200 hrs is what is needed to teach somone from scratch how to be a midlevel practitioner. NPs dont need as much time because we are not supposed to be starting from scratch.

I respect RN's and what they do. The problem is that an RN isn't that far removed from an NP.....Very little clinical science training, no generalist training, light clinical training, no training in the medical model. Lets face it, the training for each the RN/NP and PA are starkly different. Being an RN before NP school has nothing to do with anything.......it's the training that exists or doesn't. PA's get training that doesn't exist in RN training, RN clinical working experience or NP training.

You say dont mention the hours as an RN as part of clinical training, but they cant be separated. They are intertwined and those hours are a prereq to np school. Your experience prior to becoming a PA, though valuable and useful to you, are not a requirement of of PA school.

They can't be serperated from the RN-NP relationship, but there is no RN-PA relationship. The RN-NP relationship is deficient across the board in clinical and science training.
 
lawguil said:
PA school is designed to develop a competant practitioner and presumes to start from scratch and teach the student everything they need to know in the 2-2.5 years of the program. NPs are expected to have done many hours of clinical already and their curriculum takes advantage of this. Why waste clinical days teaching an RN how to start an IV? 2200 hrs is what is needed to teach somone from scratch how to be a midlevel practitioner. NPs dont need as much time because we are not supposed to be starting from scratch.

Actually the RN's in our class did well. They have the same advantages that anyone with medical experience has is PA school. The difference is that like medical school PA school makes no assumptions. Everyone gets trained to the same standard. If you look at PA curriculum development it consists of two parts - didactic exposure which is spelled out in considerable detail and clinical experience which is spelled out in terms of what the PA should be exposed to.

Compare this to NP curriculum development which speaks of competencies and cultural development. While this works in the setting of nursing, from a medical perspective it does nothing to show medical competency. There is an underlying assumption that all nursing is the same and that all nurses have equal exposure. With the advent of direct entry NP programs this is obviously false.

I respect RN's and what they do. The problem is that an RN isn't that far removed from an NP.....Very little clinical science training, no generalist training, light clinical training, no training in the medical model. Lets face it, the training for each the RN/NP and PA are starkly different. Being an RN before NP school has nothing to do with anything.......it's the training that exists or doesn't. PA's get training that doesn't exist in RN training, RN clinical working experience or NP training.
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I think the real difference is that a new grad NP is not that different than a nurse of the same experience, while the PA grad is very different from the student that started the program. In my opinion the DNP and the call for NP residencies is a recognition that the training is insufficent.

The PA education creates a minimally proficent medical practitioner. The NP program creates an Advanced practice nurse. In nursing theorists speak of a left-right continuum. On the left an NP practices essentially as an RN (scut work, dsg changes - may not use prescriptive authority). On the right the NP practices in an independent mode in what I would categorize medical practice. NP training places the NP on the left of the spectrum and they may move to the right as they gain experience (or as a colleague stated "actually allows me to work within my scope of practice"). There are a number of studies that show after 1-2 years an NP and a PA function in a very similar manner. It's what happens before that shows the difference in training. NP training relies much more on the the individual student and their motivation. PA school produces a more uniform product (although individual students may exceed the minimum).


David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I think prior nursing training does help a pa student. we had several nurses in my class who all did very well. one was a cardiothoracic surgical nurse before pa school and wanted to be a surgical pa. she was miles ahead of everyone else in the class when it came to surgery and surgical anatomy, etc. she got a GREAT cardiothoracic surgical pa job right out of school with the same hospital and group she used to work with as a nurse.
 
emedpa said:
I think prior nursing training does help a pa student. we had several nurses in my class who all did very well. one was a cardiothoracic surgical nurse before pa school and wanted to be a surgical pa. she was miles ahead of everyone else in the class when it came to surgery and surgical anatomy, etc. she got a GREAT cardiothoracic surgical pa job right out of school with the same hospital and group she used to work with as a nurse.
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I do agree that previous healthcare experience isn't wasted, especially with the case you describe. I think it represents an aptitude and desire to do well in advancing one's knowledge because of their experiences. Similar to a medic going to PA school and working in EM or a PT completing PA school and working in ortho. Surely it helps to have had previous medical training, but I don't think it matters if you are a nurse, EMT, PT, ATC, DC, RT or some other similar level clinician in PA school. Each will have different advantages, but the common theme is previous medical experience, some idea of what they are getting into, and the natural desire to learn the material because of their experiences.
 
core0 said:
I think the real difference is that a new grad NP is not that different than a nurse of the same experience, while the PA grad is very different from the student that started the program. In my opinion the DNP and the call for NP residencies is a recognition that the training is insufficent.

The PA education creates a minimally proficent medical practitioner. The NP program creates an Advanced practice nurse. In nursing theorists speak of a left-right continuum. On the left an NP practices essentially as an RN (scut work, dsg changes - may not use prescriptive authority). On the right the NP practices in an independent mode in what I would categorize medical practice. NP training places the NP on the left of the spectrum and they may move to the right as they gain experience (or as a colleague stated "actually allows me to work within my scope of practice"). There are a number of studies that show after 1-2 years an NP and a PA function in a very similar manner. It's what happens before that shows the difference in training. NP training relies much more on the the individual student and their motivation. PA school produces a more uniform product (although individual students may exceed the minimum).


David Carpenter, PA-C
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coreo,

Sorry to be confusing in my post. You quoted me as saying this:

Originally Posted by lawguil
PA school is designed to develop a competant practitioner and presumes to start from scratch and teach the student everything they need to know in the 2-2.5 years of the program. NPs are expected to have done many hours of clinical already and their curriculum takes advantage of this. Why waste clinical days teaching an RN how to start an IV? 2200 hrs is what is needed to teach somone from scratch how to be a midlevel practitioner. NPs dont need as much time because we are not supposed to be starting from scratch.
This was originally written by dqbanrn
 
Okay so you have taken this thread from a statement I made about going back to school to the arguement of which is better NP or PA! You know what I don't really care to hear your opinions. The fact is there are both good and bad PA's and NP's as well as MD's and Do's. Both the NP and PA are here to stay so you may as well find a good one if you want to work with one!

PA's and NP's are different. I can only speak from the NP perspective and that of my school. I was trained to do Family Practice. I did not receive training for all the extra stuff such as cutdowns and central lines, but I am okay with that. If I wanted that I would have done something different.

We are never going to get everyone to agree with our side of which is better. Personally I think both have a place in the healthcare system and have made a positive impact overall. There are things PA's bring to the table that NP's don't have and vice versa. Don't judge what you don't know of first hand, i.e. what you are trained in and where you did your schooling. Don't try to tell me that I am not as good as a PA when you don't know me, my background or my skills, likewise, I will not judge you or anyother PA who I don't know. I know NP's who suck, so what, that does not mean all NP's suck. I know MD's who are worse than the sucky NP's, what does that mean? I don't think all MD's suck. Quite making generalizations and quite using this forum for your personal soap box.

If you want to dialogue this then start your own thread and quite hijacking mine. Oh, and go get a life outside of this stupid debate! 😴
 
Carolina Girl,

You are better off taking to real live PAs and NPs sometimes rather than post questions like this one due to what happened in this thread. And after having said that, I'm waiting for the regulars to start in on me 😉
 
CarolinaGirl said:
Okay so you have taken this thread from a statement I made about going back to school to the arguement of which is better NP or PA! You know what I don't really care to hear your opinions. The fact is there are both good and bad PA's and NP's as well as MD's and Do's. Both the NP and PA are here to stay so you may as well find a good one if you want to work with one!

PA's and NP's are different. I can only speak from the NP perspective and that of my school. I was trained to do Family Practice. I did not receive training for all the extra stuff such as cutdowns and central lines, but I am okay with that. If I wanted that I would have done something different.

We are never going to get everyone to agree with our side of which is better. Personally I think both have a place in the healthcare system and have made a positive impact overall. There are things PA's bring to the table that NP's don't have and vice versa. Don't judge what you don't know of first hand, i.e. what you are trained in and where you did your schooling. Don't try to tell me that I am not as good as a PA when you don't know me, my background or my skills, likewise, I will not judge you or anyother PA who I don't know. I know NP's who suck, so what, that does not mean all NP's suck. I know MD's who are worse than the sucky NP's, what does that mean? I don't think all MD's suck. Quite making generalizations and quite using this forum for your personal soap box.

If you want to dialogue this then start your own thread and quite hijacking mine. Oh, and go get a life outside of this stupid debate! 😴
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Have you taken any of the pre-reqs. Don't know about FNP/RNs specifically, but I know folks outside the medical field going back to school as non-traditional students to complete the prereqes. Where I'm at, chem, org chem, biochem and physics are only offered during the day (no evening classes) Bio is offered in the evening and all the course are offered over the summer. Many students are formally enrolled in post bac programs and where I'm at they do have high acceptance rates, but a formal post bac program isn't needed by everybody. It really depends on what courses you have already taken and the grades you achieved. At the post bac program I'm involved with, we don't take students simply wishing to improve their grades or if they've already taken most of the pre-reqs. What's your situation and timeline?
 
I worked about 3/4 time while going back over one year to complete physics x 2 and organic chemistry x 2. Most locales offer both of these courses at night. I actually took the first of each of these courses at night at a community college. My experience is that if you have all the other pre-reqs from a major university plus a BS or MS degree already with exceptional GPA (3.6-3.9), then you can easily do the remaining pre-reqs at the community college level. No one will care, and the final pre-reqs at CC are often better courses and get you near one on one attention with the profs.
 
From a fellow carolina girl who is an FNP- I have often thought about going back to medical school to broaden my options and have the pedagogic, more standardized/prescribed experience of MD training. Go for it and let us know how it all goes!

My husband is a first year medical student so I am familiar with the application/admission process. My advice, depending on how much basic science you have had in the past, is to take/retake all of the pre med classes- Bio, Chem, Orgo, Physics and maybe throw in a biochem class (my husband wishes he had). Take Kaplan prep class and do well on your MCAT. Be methodical about your studying and practice tests.

As for the NP vs PA education debate, I think in the end they can provide the same level of quality care despite differing educational backgrounds. I am always miffed by the "which is better debate" because I have worked with both disciplines and in practice they are the SAME (of course there will be a range of capability within each group). NP programs, as PA programs, focus on advanced pathophys, advanced pharm, and advanced clinical decision making courses in addition to clinical experiences, all building on generally the same prerec's (except for orgo, maybe) acquired at different points in the two disciplines' educational paths. Seems like PA's get more technical education (can do more procedures coming out of school) and therefore end up landing more surgical subspecialty jobs- but ACNPs and those as licensed first assist can get those jobs too. I would have liked more clinical experience as an FNP student, but if you are a good self-directed learner, and know your resources when you have questions, you fare well. In the end, this debate is a waste of time. PA and NP are two roads to the same end... I wish they would just merge the two and have one kind of mid level. It is so confusing the the public.
 
corpsmanUP said:
I worked about 3/4 time while going back over one year to complete physics x 2 and organic chemistry x 2. Most locales offer both of these courses at night. I actually took the first of each of these courses at night at a community college. My experience is that if you have all the other pre-reqs from a major university plus a BS or MS degree already with exceptional GPA (3.6-3.9), then you can easily do the remaining pre-reqs at the community college level. No one will care, and the final pre-reqs at CC are often better courses and get you near one on one attention with the profs.
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This is how I was advised to go about it after already having an M.S. and it's working for me so far.
 
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