for Computer Science people

[jeanslee]

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Hey,

Any other CompSci majors out there doing pre-med post bacc or are just applying to med school?

I'm not saying that other majors are super easy, but CompSci is just pure torture. I'd say its very difficult, near impossible, to get a GPA over 3.5 in CompSci....if you do, KUDOS TO YOU! 👍

But anyway, I was wondering what other CompSci people thought, or what YOU think of CompSci-ers chances at MedSchool. I've heard different things from current med students...-either that admissions committees like compsci people, or that they don't care and just look at one's gpa, rather than considering one's major.

Anyway, I just graduated from Columbia Univ. with a CompSci B.S. degree ... and am ready to embark upon a 2 year post-bacc premed program (hopefully here, if i get in! ) -- and I was once proud (but not anymore) to say I have a 3.0 - 3.5 range GPA. So I'm a bit discouraged to tell you the truth, b/c my GPA is not competitive enough in my opinion.

But, anyway, you're input and thoughts would be really awesome to hear! 🙂

 

[edik]

You are not alone. I graduated with a CS major back in 96 (with pre-med minor). My GPA was 3.8, but my MCAT was nothing to be excited about. I did not get in on my first attempt, obviously. Took me 7 years to go at it again. This time I was much more successful.
In general schools don't care about your major. Your school is presitgious though, it should work well in your favor. Make sure you raise your science GPA by getting good grades in post-bach. And the MCAT of course. I think my getting 36 on the MCAT made a lot of difference. Also you must have some volunteering and/or research experience to talk about during your interview.
I can definitely attest to Computer Science classes being the most difficult. All those sleepless nights in the lab... Who could possibly care about grades at that time? I have no idea how anyone can have all A's in Computer Science.
Good luck to you.

 

[thewzdoc]

Not exactly CS...Information Technology. I was originally going to get a degree in Aerospace Engineering but changed majors.

There is no preference for med schools for an undergraduate degree.

The percentages of applicants with a certain degree almost equal the percentages of those accepted.

Oh..I have a 3.55 (da#n...honors is 3.65 😡 )

 

[missbonnie]

Hey,

Any other CompSci majors out there doing pre-med post bacc or are just applying to med school?

I'm not saying that other majors are super easy, but CompSci is just pure torture. I'd say its very difficult, near impossible, to get a GPA over 3.5 in CompSci....if you do, KUDOS TO YOU! 👍

But anyway, I was wondering what other CompSci people thought, or what YOU think of CompSci-ers chances at MedSchool. I've heard different things from current med students...-either that admissions committees like compsci people, or that they don't care and just look at one's gpa, rather than considering one's major.

Anyway, I just graduated from Columbia Univ. with a CompSci B.S. degree ... and am ready to embark upon a 2 year post-bacc premed program (hopefully here, if i get in! ) -- and I was once proud (but not anymore) to say I have a 3.0 - 3.5 range GPA. So I'm a bit discouraged to tell you the truth, b/c my GPA is not competitive enough in my opinion.

But, anyway, you're input and thoughts would be really awesome to hear! 🙂

Hey Jeansleee-

I didnt major in CS, but I had a lot friends at Columbia major in it and yes it's quite painful to do well. Good luck with post-bacc.

bonnie

 

[thewzdoc]

And the MCAT of course. I think my getting 36 on the MCAT made a lot of difference.

I think it might have..... 👍

 

[jeanslee]

bump

 

[pjm]

Work an interesting job in CS for awhile, it will give you some good stories to tell the admissions folks. They enjoy someone who's done different things than the usual biomaj/labrat/PI-majordomo route. I had an interview at one school that devolved into a discussion of large-scale computer networks and why they are so fascinating.

I did need a solid story as to why I was going into medicine after doing well in the CS field; adcoms want to screen out dilettantes.

You may be able to get a CS job that lets you make some $ on the side while you do your post-bacc. Even if the job is not medically related, adcoms appreciate the need to survive financially.

Do some clinical volunteer work -- both for yourself (so you know what you're getting into) and for the adcoms (so they know you know what you're getting into.) You don't need to spend a thousand hours; one day a week may be sufficient. Keep a diary to collect stories; you'll need these later for the PS and interviews.

Get a great GPA in your post-bacc, and nail the MCAT in April. Then you'll be ready to apply the June after that. Make sure your PS outlines your arc from CS to medicine. (or medicine to CS to medicine; that's a neat angle to explore.) Carry this great story to your interviews, and you'll end up in medical school, somewhere.

as a postscript, my undergrad GPA was not great, but my MCAT, postbacc GPA, work experience, and volunteer stories gave the adcoms a good reason to overlook that detail. I'm happy that Columbia will be using AMCAS this year; I believe the AMCAS form portrays nontraditional students much better than the old apps at Columbia and NYU which kind of assumed you did 4 and out.

 

[jeanslee]

THANKS so much for the inputs everybody!

keep them coming - i love hearing stories.


*bump*

 

[BubbleBobble]

Hey,

Any other CompSci majors out there doing pre-med post bacc or are just applying to med school?

I'm not saying that other majors are super easy, but CompSci is just pure torture. I'd say its very difficult, near impossible, to get a GPA over 3.5 in CompSci....if you do, KUDOS TO YOU! 👍

But anyway, I was wondering what other CompSci people thought, or what YOU think of CompSci-ers chances at MedSchool. I've heard different things from current med students...-either that admissions committees like compsci people, or that they don't care and just look at one's gpa, rather than considering one's major.

Anyway, I just graduated from Columbia Univ. with a CompSci B.S. degree ... and am ready to embark upon a 2 year post-bacc premed program (hopefully here, if i get in! ) -- and I was once proud (but not anymore) to say I have a 3.0 - 3.5 range GPA. So I'm a bit discouraged to tell you the truth, b/c my GPA is not competitive enough in my opinion.

But, anyway, you're input and thoughts would be really awesome to hear! 🙂

I graduated with two degrees this past spring, and one of them was in CS (from UWash undergrad). It was really hard - there's no other way to put it. I don't really fear the workload of medical school because of what I've already been through.

Moreover, I think that being a CS major helped me out during my interviews. I think that the admissions committee likes to see that you've done stuff besides the basic pre-med sciences. It helps make you stand out, and demonstrates to them that you're willing to work very hard.

Sadly though, you still must do well in *all* of your classes - 3.6+ is good. Being CS doesn't make up for having a poor GPA. It just helps distinguish among the many other interviewing pre-med students, all of whom are capable of being med students.

I will say this though. It's tough thinking about going to school/residency and making hardly anything for so many years when so many people I know right now are going to Microsoft/Amazon/Google and making $75-85K right out of undergrad. 😳

 

[LUBDUBB]

Double Major here..CS and bio


I absolutely love CS, if there were no such thing as medicine I would def go into comp sci.

As for adcoms, I'll let you know, because this year is my first year applying. I hope comp sci will help my 3.52 for med school, but I doubt it, it seems that no one gives a damn about your major.

But as a major, It's a major that really helps your analytical skills and critical thinking abilities, which is a good thing for the mcat.

 

[gizmoduck]

Man....CS must be harder at other schools. At mine it's the laughing-stock of the campus. I work for the school help desk and we don't even hire CS majors because the majority of them can't even turn on a computer without help and have the IQ of a stump.

 

[BubbleBobble]

But as a major, It's a major that really helps your analytical skills and critical thinking abilities, which is a good thing for the mcat.

Completely agree! 👍

 

[An Yong]

Who wouldn't love turing machines and chomsky's hierarchy?!

 

[Sage880]

I did a CS degree and my GPA was total crap. I won't even post it I'm so ashamed.... it didn't meat the MINIMUM for any school I wanted to go to.

But, I did one year of pre-med and did well on the MCATs and I just got accepted to a med school! My advisor told me that they raised my GPA a lot when considering my application.

So, even though they don't like some undergrad programs better then others, it seems that they understand certain programs are harder and consider that.

 

[jeanslee]

yeah, good point.

my gpa is 3.0-3.5 -- little on the low side for med school.

hopefully, if i get into columbia post-bacc program, i'll be able to boost my performance there... i dunno.. ugh, why did i pick CS?

hopefully med schools think CS people are cool. 👍

 

[Mr Reddly]

I think it all depends on what you like. As an EE with computer architecture concentration, I took a number of CS classes... Those were the fun ones for me. I remember being told NOT to take the OS class cuz it was notorious... even for CS guys and that for an EE to do it was crazy... I liked it. 😀
But then again, this is my 4th time trying for med. 🙁 And the EE was, IMHO, a big negative for me.

 

[thewzdoc]

Man....CS must be harder at other schools. At mine it's the laughing-stock of the campus. I work for the school help desk and we don't even hire CS majors because the majority of them can't even turn on a computer without help and have the IQ of a stump.

That's pretty funny....yah maybe it's just your school. Do they actually make them go to class?

 

[oldtimer]

Look on the positive side. Most of the best problem-solvers I have interacted with were CS or engineering majors. I'll reserve my opinions on marketing and business majors. 😀 Sure, these technical majors are difficult, but they train you to think well. Your diagnostic skills will probably be much stronger because of it.

 

[safrat]

I'm so glad they made this post. I've been complaining my entire four years to my pre-med and cs buds. I must have came off as being the bitchy one. I was the only pre-med/cs in my graduating class. I had the 3rd highest gpa, 3.5-3.45 amongst cs majors, and I had a paper published.

Needless to say, after being rejected, I called one of the schools and asked why--instate. They said that you need more EC's, oh, and they think I may have problems in med school. When that person said the latter, I wanted to kill myself. I've struggled my entire four years, maintaining a 3.6 until my senior year, and all I get is "they thought you might have some problems in the difficulty of med school." I remember being in a class full of a 100 bio students and having one of the highest grades(7 out of 100) in the class. Same thing in organic, which is supposed to be the ball breaker for pre-meds.

I asked him if they cared I was a cs major. He said absolutely not. If you had a 3.7, then we would be interested in uniqueness. Ummhmmm.

Man, I got screwed. In the long run, if I keep up with the cs literature, I will have a very efficient office. And, hell, why not do some research as well for the betterment of society and for giving me a reason for choosing cs as my undergrad major. Peace out nerds.

 

[lorelei]

I was a computer engineering major, which at my school (CWRU) was basically CS + the engineering core. My engineering buddies and I used to discuss what the easiest engineering major was, and I always said comp E (some others nominated Civ E) - I was able to get a second major in German and still graduate in four years. I didn't work hard, but I did work, which allowed me to be near the top of most CS classes because they were full of slackers.

Anyway, so it was easy at my school so I don't have the GPA issue. But I think it helped a lot with problem solving skills, and I have different stories and a bit of uniqueness. Who knows what adcoms will think, but so far most people in the medical field have found it interesting.

On edit, I want to stress that I loved CS. I thought the topics were interesting, I liked spending time in the lab (well, until say 1 am or so), and I was/am a pretty damn good programmer. No one without the natural aptitude would ever have the view that CS is easy.

 

[g3pro]

I'm doing a CS minor for research purposes. I haven't started the actual course work, but I had no idea that so many people have problems with it. Well, then again, in high school, my AP CS class consistently scored in the 30% range and I would be the only one above that, with 100% on every test, assignment, and quiz. 😀


I can't wait to start taking some CS classes because that will boost my GPA incredibly. 🙂

 

[safrat]

douche bag (sorry for the name calling), haven't you realized that high school is totally different then college??? If you think that the courses will be an *A OKAY*🙂 piece of cake class, then you're either going to a horrible school or you're in the surprise of your life. Also, if you need help boosting up your gpa, that means you haven't done well in your major or core, which most likely is of equal difficulty to cs. Back to the high school thing, well, in my class I have all Chinese and Indian foreign students. They most likely had a job in cs and did really well in their countries; however, over here, they often do as well as the class. Aren't you special, wow, 100 in everything, owwwe, in high school, wooow. Damn, your sizzling. And, what kind of research are you doing???? Most classes have a standarized course listing comprising of a programming language and just the fundamental comp architecure and basics, including theory. That seems like an awful waste of money and time if you just want to learn a programming language, considering that taking those classes you'll have to learn it yourself anyways, well, again, depends on if your school is a pos in cs. Have fun 🙂

 

[g3pro]

douche bag (sorry for the name calling), haven't you realized that high school is totally different then college??? If you think that the courses will be an *A OKAY*🙂 piece of cake class, then you're either going to a horrible school or you're in the surprise of your life. Also, if you need help boosting up your gpa, that means you haven't done well in your major or core, which most likely is of equal difficulty to cs. Back to the high school thing, well, in my class I have all Chinese and Indian foreign students. They most likely had a job in cs and did really well in their countries; however, over here, they often do as well as the class. Aren't you special, wow, 100 in everything, owwwe, in high school, wooow. Damn, your sizzling. And, what kind of research are you doing???? Most classes have a standarized course listing comprising of a programming language and just the fundamental comp architecure and basics, including theory. That seems like an awful waste of money and time if you just want to learn a programming language, considering that taking those classes you'll have to learn it yourself anyways, well, again, depends on if your school is a pos in cs. Have fun 🙂

Whoa, get a grip there, mate.

Computational biology, I've studied CS my entire life (I would call myself a CS natural), I'm not taking CS "to learn a programming language", only someone from an incompetent CS program would say something like that. Do you understand standard deviation? 🙄

Do I think that the CS classes I will be taking will be a piece of cake? Although I go to a #4-ranked school in computer science, I would say for the most part, the CS courses will be incredibly easy for someone who already knows the in's and out's prior to taking the class.

 

[cucswiz]

hey all,

I'm kind of in the same boat as people on this tread, but I haven't taken the pre-med reqs yet. The funny thing is during HS I was really thinking about medicine (was even president of the medical club), but I decided to try my hand in CS during my ugrad. It definitely wasn't easy, but I really enjoyed the experience (and did pretty well at it)... however, through all my internships I've been pretty jaded with the whole career path. realized that i wanted to do something i felt more passionate about.

During my senior year, I was seriouslly considering doing a post-bac program, and audited a biochem class. But the default was for me to apply to a CS Master's program. The situation now is that I was accepted to a masters program (stanford) but I think I really do want to take a serious look at switching into medicine. My plan is to do a specialization like compbio (where I could possibly take some premed classes and use them as credits towards my masters).

However, I'm just not sure adcoms look at going from such a specialized and different background like CS into medicine... what are the chances (i guess its called a "non-traditional" student) of getting into a top med school? And how much weight is put on things like research clinical or otherwise... to say the least its a pretty confusing time right now and I'm trying to sort things out...

Also in terms of premed reqs, what exactly is required? I did take physics during college so I'm guessing that should be okay, and I AP'ed out of chemistry so I'm guessing I would need to take Organic Chem, and then Bio.

In terms of stats and things, I went to an ivy school that is pretty well known for their CS and graduated Magna cum laude (3.95). I've had 2 semesters of undergrad research experience (CS related).

 

[BubbleBobble]

hey all,

I'm kind of in the same boat as people on this tread, but I haven't taken the pre-med reqs yet. The funny thing is during HS I was really thinking about medicine (was even president of the medical club), but I decided to try my hand in CS during my ugrad. It definitely wasn't easy, but I really enjoyed the experience (and did pretty well at it)... however, through all my internships I've been pretty jaded with the whole career path. realized that i wanted to do something i felt more passionate about.

During my senior year, I was seriouslly considering doing a post-bac program, and audited a biochem class. But the default was for me to apply to a CS Master's program. The situation now is that I was accepted to a masters program (stanford) but I think I really do want to take a serious look at switching into medicine. My plan is to do a specialization like compbio (where I could possibly take some premed classes and use them as credits towards my masters).

However, I'm just not sure adcoms look at going from such a specialized and different background like CS into medicine... what are the chances (i guess its called a "non-traditional" student) of getting into a top med school? And how much weight is put on things like research clinical or otherwise... to say the least its a pretty confusing time right now and I'm trying to sort things out...

Also in terms of premed reqs, what exactly is required? I did take physics during college so I'm guessing that should be okay, and I AP'ed out of chemistry so I'm guessing I would need to take Organic Chem, and then Bio.

In terms of stats and things, I went to an ivy school that is pretty well known for their CS and graduated Magna cum laude (3.95). I've had 2 semesters of undergrad research experience (CS related).

I guess I'll answer this.

First off, why do you want to be a physician? How have expressed this desire? If you can answer these questions and provide solid evidence, you're 4/5ths of the way there.

You'll need to take biology and organic chemistry. Other classes, such as English and Biochemistry, depend on the school. Same with counting AP credit. And of course, you need to take the MCAT.

But other than that, you're fine. 👍

 

[safrat]

Computational biology, I've studied CS my entire life (I would call myself a CS natural), I'm not taking CS "to learn a programming language", only someone from an incompetent CS program would say something like that. Do you understand standard deviation? 🙄

Do I think that the CS classes I will be taking will be a piece of cake? Although I go to a #4-ranked school in computer science, I would say for the most part, the CS courses will be incredibly easy for someone who already knows the in's and out's prior to taking the class.

you're an idiot. Computational biology, hmmm, bioinformatics, yeah I know something about that considering I've specialized in it in grad school. Yes I said grad not undergrad. you are trying to get a minor, right? I didn't mean to sound offensive, even though, I did get a bit offended, especially from someone who hasn't even started taking the courses. As for the incompetent cs program, it's pretty competent, and as for the guy writing this, I'm pretty competent considering that I have competed and won in an entire us region for my paper. Just don't sound so arrogant. This thread is for people who have had these courses in the college level. You shouldn't be stubborn and say that we're all stupid or that your just incredibly gifted. But be optimistic, just cautiously optimistic. Oh, and sorry for being rude.

 

[jeanslee]

*bump*

 

[thewzdoc]

you're an idiot. Computational biology, hmmm, bioinformatics, yeah I know something about that considering I've specialized in it in grad school. Yes I said grad not undergrad. you are trying to get a minor, right? I didn't mean to sound offensive, even though, I did get a bit offended, especially from someone who hasn't even started taking the courses. As for the incompetent cs program, it's pretty competent, and as for the guy writing this, I'm pretty competent considering that I have competed and won in an entire us region for my paper. Just don't sound so arrogant. This thread is for people who have had these courses in the college level. You shouldn't be stubborn and say that we're all stupid or that your just incredibly gifted. But be optimistic, just cautiously optimistic. Oh, and sorry for being rude.

It needed to be said. Great job. (Although I wouldn't have called him an idiot.....)

 

[g3pro]

you're an idiot. Computational biology, hmmm, bioinformatics, yeah I know something about that considering I've specialized in it in grad school. Yes I said grad not undergrad. you are trying to get a minor, right? I didn't mean to sound offensive, even though, I did get a bit offended, especially from someone who hasn't even started taking the courses. As for the incompetent cs program, it's pretty competent, and as for the guy writing this, I'm pretty competent considering that I have competed and won in an entire us region for my paper. Just don't sound so arrogant. This thread is for people who have had these courses in the college level. You shouldn't be stubborn and say that we're all stupid or that your just incredibly gifted. But be optimistic, just cautiously optimistic. Oh, and sorry for being rude.

So what the hell does this come down to?

1. You did graduate work in computational biology.
2. I have not received credit yet for my studies in CS.
3. ???
4. I am an idiot.

🙄

 

[10minutes]

I do think that the computer science is hard. I have taken intro CS course and it was definitely not easy. I believe since CS belongs to Engineering school in most colleges, one must be good at math too to complete the requirement. However, everything is relative. I have a friend who's majoing in CS with 3.7 He says CS is very easy. Some people seem just naturally good at it.

 

[cucswiz]

I do think that the computer science is hard. I have taken intro CS course and it was definitely not easy. I believe since CS belongs to Engineering school in most colleges, one must be good at math too to complete the requirement. However, everything is relative. I have a friend who's majoing in CS with 3.7 He says CS is very easy. Some people seem just naturally good at it.

Its hard because CS for the most part is extremely analytical - and to a certain extent g3pro is right... it isn't about learning the skills associated (i.e. learning a specific programming language), but more about learning how to think if that makes any sense...

granted some people have a natrual ability for very analytical work, but if things seem too easy, then frankly, you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.

 

[BeatArmy]

hey friends,

I am also a CS grad (BS & MS), and I am concerned about the number of CS applicants to med school. It seems like a lot because these CS threads always get a lot of responses. Also, if you check out the non-trad threads, as I do (I am on), then you might notice, as I have, that a lot of the career switchers are coming out of CS or IT. I'm definitely concerned that there will be no perceived "uniqueness" of a CS degree, regardless of GPA.
Also, the high number of CS applicants might be attributed by some to a perceived shrinkage of the CS earning potential over the past few years. Although it is certainly arguable whether or not there has been an actual shrinkage, that is the perception of those outside the field.
In my case, and I'm sure it's the same for most of us applying, the availability or pay of CS jobs had nothing to do with my decision to switch careers. (I haven't even been using my CS degrees) But I am nervous that could be the perception, nontheless.
Hopefully, the number of CS applicant is only disproportionately high on online message boards (due to the "geek" factor) and doesn't represent the actual applicant pool.
Anyway, I just hope that, one way or another, my concerns are unfounded.

 

[oldtimer]

hey friends,

I am also a CS grad (BS & MS), and I am concerned about the number of CS applicants to med school. It seems like a lot because these CS threads always get a lot of responses. Also, if you check out the non-trad threads, as I do (I am on), then you might notice, as I have, that a lot of the career switchers are coming out of CS or IT. I'm definitely concerned that there will be no perceived "uniqueness" of a CS degree, regardless of GPA.
Also, the high number of CS applicants might be attributed by some to a perceived shrinkage of the CS earning potential over the past few years. Although it is certainly arguable whether or not there has been an actual shrinkage, that is the perception of those outside the field.
In my case, and I'm sure it's the same for most of us applying, the availability or pay of CS jobs had nothing to do with my decision to switch careers. (I haven't even been using my CS degrees) But I am nervous that could be the perception, nontheless.
Hopefully, the number of CS applicant is only disproportionately high on online message boards (due to the "geek" factor) and doesn't represent the actual applicant pool.
Anyway, I just hope that, one way or another, my concerns are unfounded.

You're not imagining things, my friends. More people with CS background are applying to medical school. I doubt that people are returning to medical school simply because of a "perceived shrinkage" in earnings potential. Too many sacrifices, money and time-wise, are required for the medical path. While people may not make as money as before, the average salaries are still high enough to have a very comfortable life. No, the main reason I believe is more basic and dire. It's about losing your job to foreign competition and not being able to find another one in the CS field. I personally know of far too many people who have been affected by outsourcing. These are people who have been looking for a job for more than a year. And it will get worse before things stabilize. For some of us, switching careers is about survival. Some people choose business or law school. Others choose to stay in IT and try to adapt to the changing landscape. For me, I prefer medical school. Of course, you should also have the right reasons for wanting to go into medicine, not simply to escape IT. IT hasn't been a complete waste of time because I believe that many of the skills I learned while working will be useful as a doc.

 

[cucswiz]

You're not imagining things, my friends. More people with CS background are applying to medical school. I doubt that people are returning to medical school simply because of a "perceived shrinkage" in earnings potential. Too many sacrifices, money and time-wise, are required for the medical path. While people may not make as money as before, the average salaries are still high enough to have a very comfortable life. No, the main reason I believe is more basic and dire. It's about losing your job to foreign competition and not being able to find another one in the CS field. I personally know of far too many people who have been affected by outsourcing. These are people who have been looking for a job for more than a year. And it will get worse before things stabilize. For some of us, switching careers is about survival. Some people choose business or law school. Others choose to stay in IT and try to adapt to the changing landscape. For me, I prefer medical school. Of course, you should also have the right reasons for wanting to go into medicine, not simply to escape IT. IT hasn't been a complete waste of time because I believe that many of the skills I learned while working will be useful as a doc.

while i feel some of what you say seems to be a good realistic view, i still don't think that the IT people who can't find jobs are flocking into med school... it just doesn't seem like the path to take. given the fact that outsourcing has surely changed the landscape of the tech industry, as of right now, no high level work (by that i mean design architecture - basic core competancy) is being outsourced. thus those in command areas, with attractive skills are still in demand... just today at lunch i was hearing managers talking about how they have so many spots to fill with so few canidates.

and also, it seems like a extremely drawn out path to take for people just looking to earn a living - 4 years of med school, residency, specialization etc... thats a ton of sacrifice. i think from my experience, people in the high tech fields who haven't yet commited themselves (recent graduates, those still in college) are really looking at this option, moreso than "seasoned" veterans of the industry. don't know, just my 2 cents.

 

[oldtimer]

while i feel some of what you say seems to be a good realistic view, i still don't think that the IT people who can't find jobs are flocking into med school... it just doesn't seem like the path to take. given the fact that outsourcing has surely changed the landscape of the tech industry, as of right now, no high level work (by that i mean design architecture - basic core competancy) is being outsourced. thus those in command areas, with attractive skills are still in demand... just today at lunch i was hearing managers talking about how they have so many spots to fill with so few canidates.

and also, it seems like a extremely drawn out path to take for people just looking to earn a living - 4 years of med school, residency, specialization etc... thats a ton of sacrifice. i think from my experience, people in the high tech fields who haven't yet commited themselves (recent graduates, those still in college) are really looking at this option, moreso than "seasoned" veterans of the industry. don't know, just my 2 cents.

Consider a few things. First, a long time horizon to work. Let's say 20 or 30 or even 40 years. Even after medical training, I can work another 30 years before retirement. Even though I will lose income and incur debt by going back, I will probably make more in medicine than by staying in IT. Over a long period of time, the income I earn as a physician will offset and exceed the lost income and debt. Second, technology that keeps changing. When I first got into CS, I thought that this was a great thing. Now, I see it in a different light. Who has the time to constantly keep up with the technology? If you're already working 50-60 hours a week and maybe have a family, it's nearly impossible to keep pace with emerging technologies in your personal time. If you think that your employer will pay for all the training you need or set aside plenty of time for you to learn, that's probably wishful thinking. Yet, you need to keep up as much as possible to remain marketable in case you lose your job. Third, age discrimination. Because technology keeps changing, most people don't have more than 3-5 years of experience with any particular useful technology. Therefore, a person with 3 years of experience can compete effectively with one who has 20 years of overall IT experience but the same amount of experience in that technology. The company probably prefers the younger one because he's 1) cheaper 2) willing to work longer hours and not complain because he a) has no family b) is too inexperienced to know any better.

The medical route is sufficiently difficult enough that it still precludes many people in IT from going into it. However, if you compare historical percentages, I would bet that the numbers are up for IT people.

 

[BubbleBobble]

Its hard because CS for the most part is extremely analytical - and to a certain extent g3pro is right... it isn't about learning the skills associated (i.e. learning a specific programming language), but more about learning how to think if that makes any sense...

granted some people have a natrual ability for very analytical work, but if things seem too easy, then frankly, you aren't pushing yourself hard enough.

I think most CS majors would agree with me when I say that work is much less analytically demanding than other fields (e.g. physics), but the sheer amount of the work is what drags you down. The only field I've seen that's comparable is (believe it or not) art.

Also, the very nature of CS often makes doing projects frustrating. It's like writing an essay with a pencil that always breaks.

 

[cucswiz]

I think most CS majors would agree with me when I say that work is much less analytically demanding than other fields (e.g. physics), but the sheer amount of the work is what drags you down. The only field I've seen that's comparable is (believe it or not) art.

Also, the very nature of CS often makes doing projects frustrating. It's like writing an essay with a pencil that always breaks.

I think it really depends on what part of CS you are talking about (i went through a curriculum that was very theory focused) - algorithms for example is extremely analytical and certain specializations in CS actually relate to phyisical models (i.e. simulated annealing techniques for searching through some search space).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the nature of CS makes doing projects frustrating...

 

[oldtimer]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the nature of CS makes doing projects frustrating...

He means what happens when you actually take your CS degree and start to use it. If work on large IT projects, you'll see very quickly that what you learn in the classroom is very different in practice. Things such as bad requirements, back-stabbing coworkers, and impossible deadlines aren't in your classnotes. Ever see that Accenture commercial where some cowboys are trying to herd a bunch of cats? Well, that's what IT is like in the real world. Very frustrating.

 

[BubbleBobble]

I think it really depends on what part of CS you are talking about (i went through a curriculum that was very theory focused) - algorithms for example is extremely analytical and certain specializations in CS actually relate to phyisical models (i.e. simulated annealing techniques for searching through some search space).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the nature of CS makes doing projects frustrating...

I agree that topics such as algorithms and theory are more analytical. For me, the data structures/algorithms class consisted of lecture and exams on theory, and homework projects on implementation.

The implemention was always the hardest part. Here are some examples of how it could be time-consuming/frustrating:

- The assignments are all in C++. What, you don't know C++? Here's a book - read it, the project is still due next week for you.
- You've got a bug in your code? Keep looking for it, you'll find it! (hours/days pass) Hey guys...we found a bug in the starter code...sorry. You'll have to start all over...
- Make sure you do it in UNIX, guys. Microsoft's compiler and UNIX's compiler aren't compatible. Wait, you do know UNIX, right?

And so on. It was great stuff, but definitely time-consuming.

 

[safrat]

hahahaa, cool, I can't believe that it was the same everywhere. I remember those stressful days. Asking people and no one knows, going around asking profs and having them tell me to keep trying. Damn, I remember having a simple syntax mistake take up five days. Crazy stuff.

 

[pjm]

... Second, technology that keeps changing. When I first got into CS, I thought that this was a great thing. Now, I see it in a different light. Who has the time to constantly keep up with the technology? If you're already working 50-60 hours a week and maybe have a family, it's nearly impossible to keep pace with emerging technologies in your personal time.

This certainly isn't a reason to abandon CS for medicine. Especially in cutting-edge specialities, the standard of care is a fast-moving target. You'll need to make time to review journals and talk to colleagues if you want to stay current.

given the fact that outsourcing has surely changed the landscape of the tech industry, as of right now, no high level work (by that i mean design architecture - basic core competancy) is being outsourced. thus those in command areas, with attractive skills are still in demand... just today at lunch i was hearing managers talking about how they have so many spots to fill with so few canidates.

I totally agree. Even in Silicon Valley, it is difficult to find qualified senior software developers and architects. Many of them are quite happy in their existing positions. Whenever a company starts to tank, recruiters swarm to pick off the top engineers. These engineers have something like 5+ years experience, HA server/multithreading/networking experience, 100+ machine system design, etc. People doing just web development or basic sysadmin are not in that much demand because there are an awful lot of people with experience in these areas. (not to mention the overseas contractors.)

 

[oldtimer]

This certainly isn't a reason to abandon CS for medicine. Especially in cutting-edge specialities, the standard of care is a fast-moving target. You'll need to make time to review journals and talk to colleagues if you want to stay current.

Keeping up with the technology is not the biggest problem. What worries me more are the companies who work their employees like dogs and dump them when they find something cheaper overseas. In the past, companies viewed IT people as a strategic advantage but now they are viewed as expenses that need to be reduced. Why do you think outsourcing is such a popular trend? You can get at least a 5x savings by using overseas labor, as a VP of an engineering company told me last night. If you like to work in such an environment, go for it. Many IT people will stay in IT and try to adapt to the changes. Many do so because they can't afford to switch. It's too time-consuming and costly to try a new field, especially if you're older and have a family. For others who are able, they want to get out of the path of the train before it hits them. I'm willing to bet that if medicine treated doctors like they do IT people many people would be turned off to medicine. The two areas that might see outsourcing in medicine is radiology and pathology and if you read those forums you can see that there is growing concern about how this will affect them. If you choose to ignore how the real world operates, you do so at your own risk.

 

[jeanslee]

i'm going to stay here and do post-bacc! -- another two years of hell at columbia!

....wah.....

i'm ready to redeem myself. boost my bismal undergrad B.S. in CS gpa of 3.3-3.4 and take it one step at a time. two years to get this done.

what do you think. do-able? hopeful?

 

[jeanslee]

*bump*

 

[BeatArmy]

You're not imagining things, my friends. More people with CS background are applying to medical school. I doubt that people are returning to medical school simply because of a "perceived shrinkage" in earnings potential. Too many sacrifices, money and time-wise, are required for the medical path. While people may not make as money as before, the average salaries are still high enough to have a very comfortable life. No, the main reason I believe is more basic and dire. It's about losing your job to foreign competition and not being able to find another one in the CS field. I personally know of far too many people who have been affected by outsourcing. These are people who have been looking for a job for more than a year. And it will get worse before things stabilize. For some of us, switching careers is about survival. Some people choose business or law school. Others choose to stay in IT and try to adapt to the changing landscape. For me, I prefer medical school. Of course, you should also have the right reasons for wanting to go into medicine, not simply to escape IT. IT hasn't been a complete waste of time because I believe that many of the skills I learned while working will be useful as a doc.

hey again friends,

We go back and forth about exactly what is undesirable about the CS/IT job market. Is it salary or just job availability? Is it the pace of change or the competition from overseas markets?

The true answers to the ADCOMS are irrelevant. All they see is a rise in applicants with a CS degree and CNN saying CS grads can't get the same work they could 5 or 10 years ago. They are analytical people who are going to try to draw some kind of conclusion. I just hope that conclusion isn't, "Anybody with a CS degree just wants to go to medical school becasue they can't get a good job with computers."

I know that's not the case with me, or with most of you, but it still can hurt us.

 

[jeanslee]

bump it

 

[dabenxiong]

Hey,

Any other CompSci majors out there doing pre-med post bacc or are just applying to med school?

I'm not saying that other majors are super easy, but CompSci is just pure torture. I'd say its very difficult, near impossible, to get a GPA over 3.5 in CompSci....if you do, KUDOS TO YOU! 👍

But anyway, I was wondering what other CompSci people thought, or what YOU think of CompSci-ers chances at MedSchool. I've heard different things from current med students...-either that admissions committees like compsci people, or that they don't care and just look at one's gpa, rather than considering one's major.

Anyway, I just graduated from Columbia Univ. with a CompSci B.S. degree ... and am ready to embark upon a 2 year post-bacc premed program (hopefully here, if i get in! ) -- and I was once proud (but not anymore) to say I have a 3.0 - 3.5 range GPA. So I'm a bit discouraged to tell you the truth, b/c my GPA is not competitive enough in my opinion.

But, anyway, you're input and thoughts would be really awesome to hear! 🙂

I realized after I finished writing that I didn't answer your question. But since I'm also a CS major, I'm just going to share my experience as a CS premed.

I applied to ~20 MD/PhD programs in the 2003~2004 cycle with a CS and Molecular and Cell Biology double degree from UC Berkleley. The reasons that I decided to do a CS major were:

1. I have always been interested in research and thought having a CS background would be advantageous. For example, biomedical research nowadays are relying more and more on computers to analyze large data sets. So, even if I don't have to implement the programs myself, I would know what's going on underneath the interface, at least conceptually, which sometimes can be useful.

2. I believed applying to medical school with a CS major would set me apart from all the other applicants and give me an edge in the admissions process. (I consider myself a very typical applicant: Asians, male, from CA, went to a UC, Bio major, ok GPA, did bad on verbal...etc)

3. Getting a IT job in Silicon Valley (I'm from the Bay Area) wouldn't be a bad idea in case I don't get into med school.

Reality:
1. I have been doing 2.5+ years of research in neuroscience (5 different labs), and I do't think I have used 5% of what I learned in my cs classes. Maybe if I worked at a genetics lab it would have been different.

2. I agree with you that CS classes are hard, at least harder than my MCB classes. My overall GPA would've been ~0.2 higher if I only did MCB.

3. During my interviews, I was sometimes (~20% of the time) asked about my CS major (Why I did it and what I plan to do with it...). Do I think having a CS degree made a difference in getting me interviews or acceptances? Maybe somewhat, but I think a 3.9 GPA would seem more impressive.

I don't regret doing a CS degree. I think CS is fun and challenging (I particularly liked theory). I'd recommend it to people who also think this way. However, if you're only doing it for the reasons I mentioned above, don't. It's simply not worth it. If I can choose again, I'd probably just do MCB and save myself a year in college.

I have been accepted to NYU, UCD (MD only), and UCI.

DBX

 

[safrat]

dbx, great post. I really liked the theory side of cs and also the many uses of it's application. However, I really didn't know what I was getting into, other than the fact that I would be "unique" and not another bio major. Seriously, it was the most depressing thing to be a bio/pre-med major at my school, cause everyone else was the same damn thing. Had I known that most of them would flunk out or just choose a different career path, I might have reconsidered. Now, I look back and I'm greatful that I got to do cs, just b/c there will always be a way to use your cs knowledge. Whether it's worth it or not is another question. Good luck to all you brothers in computer science.

 

[Richie Truxillo]

CS major here. I have all of these now useless certifications too, ya know like A+, MCSE, MCSA, MCNE, Oracle+ etc. In college, all they taught me to do was program. The really important stuff like using a computer, using other operating systems, building computers and troubleshooting them, I taught myself from the age of 10. When I graduated, I walked with people who knew how to write a beautiful accounting program in C++ but didn't know how to cut and paste in Windows or use MS-Excel. (I realize though that your computer science department was probably much better at being well-rounded than mine hehe)

So what happened to me? Well I've always wanted to goto medical school. My GPA was a 3.52 however my MCAT score stunk in the bio section because I had just the bare necessities to meet the requirements. Had to reteach myself biology from scratch using some old textbooks and MCAT review materials.

In the meantime, when I graduated, I lost my database job at Corning when the stock price fell through the floor. I went unemployed for a year while I watched my older (and much less savvy) classmates nail corporate jobs. 🙄 I had all those certifications and a boatload of experience. However, that's when I learned that it's not about what you know, but all about WHO you know. I ended up taking a low-paying job running a small internet company for 2 years after I couldn't find a decent paying job around town. 🙁 Such is life.

But...I am thankful for my low-paying job because it lit a fire under my arse! I made up my mind a year ago that I was fed up with the corporate world (which mirrors EXACTLY the movie "Office Space" by the way hehe) and I was sick of fearing for my job every 3 months during the random cutbacks. I retook the MCAT and now I start med school in August. 😎
------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I am getting off topic so I'll tell you the relevant information you want to know about CS majors applying to medical school.

Yes, Computer Science majors are a very rare breed for med school applicants. My interviewers were always fascinated at my knowledge of networking, new technology and logic. The one question you'll always hear at an interview is "Why Computer Science?" I always answered them back: "Why Not?" (my lame joke letting my philosophy minor show through there hehe). Anyway, always explain that you want to marry technology with medicine and that having a better grasp on technology will allow you to utilize it more effectively than anyone else.

I once had an interview with someone at ECU med school who couldn't check his email via the Exchange server. I was able to troubleshoot the issue and fix it for him in two minutes. When I went to my exit interview (my 23 MCAT got me the boot back then hehe) the interviewer had written glowing comments about ability to rapidly fix his "computer problem." He gave me 10s across the board. Moral of this story? If the opportunity to exercise your abilities come, do it.

Do not think you are special though when applying. Applying to medical school is just a simple numbers game. Get the GPA up and the MCAT up as they matter more than anything else.

---------------------------------------------
In summary, CS majors who apply to medical school are very near and dear to my heart. You understand how difficult and abstract the material is. You know how much harder you have to work to keep up with the bio and chem stuff to. You share an appreciation of technology along with an ubergeek like myself. When you are a doctor finally, be sure to tell your colleagues who cannot check their mail to "RTFM" and then grin. 😀 If they figure out what you just said, lightheartedly punch their arm and say "I'm just kidding Ralph!"


Much love for the CS SDNers! 😍
-Richie 😎

 

[jeanslee]

*bump this baby*