For you, how important is a P/F grading system at medical school?

[Cat's Meow]

So, how many of you will base your final medical school choice on whether or not that school has a P/F grading system during the basic science years (as compared to honors, high honors, etc...)?

Thanks and God bless,

CM

🙂 😉 😀 😎 👍

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[flash]

Good question...i dunno.

But, I know that, to my mind, schools with 4 level (H/HP/P/F) is essentially the same as grades to me.

I'm condering U Miami, they have grades based on percentiles (top 2%, top 5%, top 10%). I don't particularly like it, but how bad is it really? More specifically, how much weight should I put on it as a decision factor.

Anyone know U Miami grading scheme details? top 2, 5, 10, 12, 15, 20%...? or more like 2, 5, 10, 50, 75%?

 

[ajt2003]

P/F is very important for me.

I think I need to ease myself into the medical school process, and would like to really make friends and establish myself within the institution's community - and not have the nasty undercurrent of competitiveness infiltrating each and every interaction. It just gets old. (Was in a postbacc program; yikes.)

Realistically, however, I've heard that some P/F schools still rank you at the end of the year - which just sort of defeats the purpose (NYU, for example - I think; someone correct me if I'm wrong; this made me sad - loved that school). Columbia and Yale don't - they are TRULY p/f (Columbia for the first year; Yale for the first two years)....that would be awesome. So...just let me in. Thanks.

Seriously though, I'm pretty certain few people are going to abuse this grading system (or I would hope), so it's just a nice, added perk. For me, I list it high up on my "happiness" scale, so it's almost equated with the school's location, cost, etc. - basically it's going to be a substantial factor in my selection process.

 

[dancinjenn]

Realistically, however, I've heard that some P/F schools still rank you at the end of the year - which just sort of defeats the purpose.

Wayne State is like that as well. We have a guaranteed pass rate of 75% (although deans routinely set the pass rate right around 70% so as to not fail a multitude of people in the margins). However we also get a Z score that ranks us against the class avg, and is used to place us in percentiles for Dean's letters.

 

[leechy]

I agree with ajt2003. Pass/Fail is really important to me. From speaking to students at a varieyt of medical schools, it seems as though the grading system does make a real difference in your life for the first two years. It's not so much that you need to fear competition from evil gunners at the "grade" schools. It's more that having grades increases your own stress level, because you feel like you need to prove yourself with every exam, and there's this constant reminder of how well you're doing with respect to the rest of the class. I just don't want the burden of striving for "honors" hanging over my head.

 

[sunUCB]

the most important thing to me is getting accepted somewhere.....until that happens, P/F doesn't matter to me. if things go unexpectedly well and i have the chance to choose, i think $$/less debt will be slightly ahead of P/F in my decision.

 

[Cerberus]

the most important thing to me is getting accepted somewhere.....until that happens, P/F doesn't matter to me. if things go unexpectedly well and i have the chance to choose, i think $$/less debt will be slightly ahead of P/F in my decision.

exactly

 

[RaistlinMajere]

It's is a factor for me, but not a major one.

 

[45408]

MCW uses H/HP/P/F, but they don't do things like rank their students. I wish they used P/F though, because I would like to go there.

 

[pratik7]

MCW uses H/HP/P/F, but they don't do things like rank their students. I wish they used P/F though, because I would like to go there.

I hear ya. I just got back from the interview and to make things worse they have 8-5 classes

 

[DieselPetrolGrl]

Good question...i dunno.

But, I know that, to my mind, schools with 4 level (H/HP/P/F) is essentially the same as grades to me.

I'm condering U Miami, they have grades based on percentiles (top 2%, top 5%, top 10%). I don't particularly like it, but how bad is it really? More specifically, how much weight should I put on it as a decision factor.

Anyone know U Miami grading scheme details? top 2, 5, 10, 12, 15, 20%...? or more like 2, 5, 10, 50, 75%?

at the interview yesterday they told us it was P/F and that percentage info is only between u and dean and not even on ur transcript...dean only knows it so they can take actions to adjust your performance so you dont suck on the usmle step 1.

 

[stinkycheese]

I don't really care either way. The school I am planning on attending is H/HP/P/LP/F, and it's just an extra incentive to do really well, but passing everything without HP or H doesn't mean you're doomed to a crappy residency. It's more important how you do on step 1 and during your clinical years. So I'm just happy to be going somewhere and knowing that if I do particularly well, I will have something to show for it with an H or an HP, and if I don't do awesome, it won't hurt me either as long as I don't LP or F.

 

[soprano]

For me, it's extremely important. I only have two schools that I am seriously considering that do H/P/F. Everywhere else is P/F. Every student that I've talked to at P/F schools RAVE about it. They say it eliminates competition, which really improves the quality of life during the first two years. That it very important to me...

 

[DrMom]

H/HP/P/LP/F

Please tell me how this is significantly different from A/B/C/D/F. 😕

 

[stinkycheese]

Please tell me how this is significantly different from A/B/C/D/F. 😕

It's not, and I didn't say that it was. What I did say was that it doesn't bother me.

 

[DrMom]

It's not, and I didn't say that it was. What I did say was that it doesn't bother me.

Ah. I thought you were saying that it reduced the performance pressure to not have letter grades.

 

[stinkycheese]

Ah. I thought you were saying that it reduced the performance pressure to not have letter grades.

Nope. I didn't mean that. But for me, I don't feel as much performance pressure as I did in college. I feel pressure to pass everything next year, but I am not going to stress if I don't get all honors. I think that medical school is just inherently different that way, and that rocking the boards and the clinical years will be a fine way to show competency. 🙂 I do understand why people dislike ABCDF grading systems in medical schools, but to repeat myself, I don't mind it.

 

[Tiki]

I didn't think it mattered whether or not a school was P/F at first either, but now after completing almost a semester of med school, I can only imagine how much more enjoyable school would be if it were P/F.

So much less stress. The good thing is that my school is starting to talk about possibly going to P/F. That would be quite nice if they did.

 

[tigress]

So, how many of you will base your final medical school choice on whether or not that school has a P/F grading system during the basic science years (as compared to honors, high honors, etc...)?

Thanks and God bless,

CM

🙂 😉 😀 😎 👍

So this is actually a big factor in where I'm applying. Some schools have A/B/C/D/F grading, and I simply won't apply there. I know myself, and I know that would cause too much stress. While I would prefer straight P/F, H/P/F is fine too, because still almost everybody gets P and it covers a broad range. At Drexel, where my husband goes, they do H/HP/P/F, and HP only covers grade ranges like 87 to 90 or something, so barely anybody gets it, and it's not really an issue. At Penn they have P/F first semester and H/P/F after that, which is cool. But yes, it's a big factor.

 

[Cat's Meow]

So this is actually a big factor in where I'm applying. Some schools have A/B/C/D/F grading, and I simply won't apply there. I know myself, and I know that would cause too much stress. While I would prefer straight P/F, H/P/F is fine too, because still almost everybody gets P and it covers a broad range. At Drexel, where my husband goes, they do H/HP/P/F, and HP only covers grade ranges like 87 to 90 or something, so barely anybody gets it, and it's not really an issue. At Penn they have P/F first semester and H/P/F after that, which is cool. But yes, it's a big factor.

I feel you. I do not want to "compete" for grades anymore. I am far too old and tired for that 😳

 

[Stitch626]

No one is directly addressing the fact that even in P/F systems, you are still being ranked. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that most residencies required both USMLE board scores and a class rank in order to interview.

It seems as if the P/F system might induce a false sense of security - in that, while you may be satisfied receiving passing scores in all your classes, you may easily, and unwittingly, be ranking in the lower percentiles.

 

[riverie]

No one is directly addressing the fact that even in P/F systems, you are still being ranked. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that most residencies required both USMLE board scores and a class rank in order to interview.

It seems as if the P/F system might induce a false sense of security - in that, while you may be satisfied receiving passing scores in all your classes, you may easily, and unwittingly, be ranking in the lower percentiles.

when i interviewed at Uchicago, my student interviewer (4th year, applying for residencies) insisted that they had no ranking, even though they're a strictly P/F school. When I asked how residencies differentiate the students she said that the dean's letter does that.

 

[8-)]

If I had a choice between a P/F, H/P/F, and H/HP/P/LP/F system, I would choose the school with the H/P/F grading system. I think there's a fine line between pushing a student too hard and not pushing hard enough. For me, having the H category would give me the extra push I would need to work a little bit harder. On the other hand, the H/HP/P/LP/F system places too much emphasis on grades and promotes unneccesary competition.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I think that I'm one of the few who desire a grading system. The chance of achieving honors is an opportunity to make yourself stand out, and I plan to take advantage of it. 👍

 

[Cat's Meow]

I think that I'm one of the few who desire a grading system. The chance of achieving honors is an opportunity to make yourself stand out, and I plan to take advantage of it. 👍

But imagine how hard it is to get honors in a group of medical students who are so wonderfully brilliant. You will be competing with the cream of the crop, and I don't think that getting an honors in med school would be as "easy" as getting an A in college.

 

[Cat's Meow]

I think that I'm one of the few who desire a grading system. The chance of achieving honors is an opportunity to make yourself stand out, and I plan to take advantage of it. 👍

Your avatar made me sad 🙁

Do you really eat puppies?

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

But imagine how hard it is to get honors in a group of medical students who are so wonderfully brilliant. You will be competing with the cream of the crop, and I don't think that getting an honors in med school would be as "easy" as getting an A in college.

I'm well aware that medical school will be difficult; I plan on working very hard. As for competing against the cream of the crop? Depends on where I go 😉

And no, I don't eat puppies 🙄

 

[Cat's Meow]

I'm well aware that medical school will be difficult; I plan on working very hard. As for competing against the cream of the crop? Depends on where I go 😉

And no, I don't eat puppies 🙄

 

[Cat's Meow]

What schools in the top 20 do not have P/F curricula during the basic science years?

I couldn't find this anywhere 😕

 

[tigress]

What schools in the top 20 do not have P/F curricula during the basic science years?

I couldn't find this anywhere 😕

Yeah, I haven't found any list of school grading systems or anything. You can find it on the individual schools' web pages, though. Maybe people could tell what they know on this thread. So, for starters:

Drexel H/HP/P/F
Penn P/F 1st semester, H/P/F thereafter (they also do basic sciences in 1.5 years, only school I know of that does that)

 

[Cat's Meow]

Drexel H/HP/P/F
Harvard P/F
Penn P/F 1st semester, H/P/F thereafter (they also do basic sciences in 1.5 years, only school I know of that does that)
Stanford P/F
UCSF P/F

 

[ajt2003]

Drexel H/HP/P/F
Harvard P/F
Penn P/F 1st semester, H/P/F thereafter (they also do basic sciences in 1.5 years, only school I know of that does that)
Stanford P/F
UCSF P/F

Try this site:

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

I think the number of intervals is equal to the grading system (e.g. 2 = P/F; 3 intervals = H/P/F, etc.).

It's hours of fun. HOURS. I need to get a life.

 

[riverie]

Drexel H/HP/P/F
Penn P/F 1st semester, H/P/F thereafter (they also do basic sciences in 1.5 years, only school I know of that does that)

Baylor also does their basic science in 1.5 years. But they've recently switched from P/F back to H/HP/P/MP/F b/c the first years a year ago weren't studying hard enough and pretty much didn't know a whole block's worth of material! 😛 i think i would be like that too on a P/F system. 😀

 

[Cat's Meow]

Try this site:

http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm

I think the number of intervals is equal to the grading system (e.g. 2 = P/F; 3 intervals = H/P/F, etc.).

It's hours of fun. HOURS. I need to get a life.

Thanks!

Looks good.

God bless,

CM

 

[flash]

U Miami has 6 intervals! The key only goes up to 5! You can't even search for schools with 6!

Please, post info on the intervals if someone knows about them.

Thanks.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

2 = P/F
3 = H/P/F
4 = H/HP/P/F
5 = H/HP/P/LP/F or A/B/C/D/F
6 = Are you sure thats not a mistake?

P = Pass
H = Honors
F = Fail
HP = High Pass
LP = Low Pass

 

[DieselPetrolGrl]

ur av is making me sad
can you change it?..to a kitten atleast!

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

ur av is making me sad
can you change it?..to a kitten atleast!

I believe that the real Sir Drake would have embraced my avatar 😉

 

[flash]

2 = P/F
3 = H/P/F
4 = H/HP/P/F
5 = H/HP/P/LP/F or A/B/C/D/F
6 = Are you sure thats not a mistake?

P = Pass
H = Honors
F = Fail
HP = High Pass
LP = Low Pass

not sure, but probably unlikely b/c I know they grade percentiles - top 2%, 5%, 10%...but i don't know what the particular "buckets" are exactly.

that avatar is really funny.

 

[skypilot]

No one is directly addressing the fact that even in P/F systems, you are still being ranked. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that most residencies required both USMLE board scores and a class rank in order to interview.

It seems as if the P/F system might induce a false sense of security - in that, while you may be satisfied receiving passing scores in all your classes, you may easily, and unwittingly, be ranking in the lower percentiles.

I think you start getting ranked later in Pass/Fail schools. Most schools stop using pass/fail in the third and fourth years.

 

[Cat's Meow]

Does anyone have an idea of the proportion of schools that have a strictly P/F currculum during the science years? It seems that more and more schools are heading in this direction.

 

[oldman]

one drawback of p/f systems is that the residency program directors will have to judge you on your board score more. they need something objective.

 

[DieselPetrolGrl]

I believe that the real Sir Drake would have embraced my avatar 😉

he called u a man of no honour!
as a notorious 'sea dog' Sir Drake feelsinsulted that a animal linked to his legend would be consumed...now walk de' plank! 😡

 

[skypilot]

one drawback of p/f systems is that the residency program directors will have to judge you on your board score more. they need something objective.

This may or may not be a drawback if you can kick it on the boards.
Even if you get grades I doubt they will look at them.