Foreign MD vs. DO

[ptelefus]

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As a new SDN member I am not aware of the numerous threads that have discussed this topic. To the crowd's dismay, I am asking for advice on my current dilemma. I have received acceptances from Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine and St. George's University in the Caribbean. I am equally excited about both opportunities but can not firmly decide on either school. As a California resident, AZCOM easily comes away as the convenient situation but it seems through my research that St. George's has better residency placements. If surgery is my speciality of desire, is one school really better than the other?? I understand people do not like discussing DO vs. MD, but I know the value of each and am trying to evaluate if one choice gives me an advantage for future opportunities. Any advice is greatly appreciated...

 

[Tiger26]

DO

Matching as a FMG has become very difficult

 

[Lanvin]

Personally, I would rather go to AZCOM. Do well and you won't have much of a problem getting into allopathic residency. Osteopathic medicine will also open up the DO only residency programs. I have the impression that FMG is dicey and I'm not much of a gambler.

 

[RySerr21]

dont be foolish. Your dilemma isnt MD vs DO, its US vs Caribbean. While their might be some debate for the first, for the latter it is pretty much unanimous. STAY IN THE STATES. You shouldnt have to think more than 30 sec about this decision. And you are from CA? You are really contemplating moving to the caribbean when you can go a to a good meds chool 1 state away from your family and friends?

 

[coffeebythelake]

If it's a choice between DO or Caribbean MD, definitely go for the former.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I would go the DO route. Life as a FMG is difficult regardless of all the "success stories" you hear about.

 

[Instatewaiter]

As a new SDN member I am not aware of the numerous threads that have discussed this topic. To the crowd's dismay, I am asking for advice on my current dilemma. I have received acceptances from Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine and St. George's University in the Caribbean. I am equally excited about both opportunities but can not firmly decide on either school. As a California resident, AZCOM easily comes away as the convenient situation but it seems through my research that St. George's has better residency placements. If surgery is my speciality of desire, is one school really better than the other?? I understand people do not like discussing DO vs. MD, but I know the value of each and am trying to evaluate if one choice gives me an advantage for future opportunities. Any advice is greatly appreciated...

The fact that you referenced the many threads on this topic makes me believe that you are aware of those threads.

Do a search. Also remember SGU graduates like 400 kids a year so the fact that they may have more surgeons doesnt mean that much when they have 2x as many graduates.

 

[synapse lapse]

DO without a doubt. You'll have the option of doing allo residency or an osteo residency. FMG is a signifigantly greater disadvantage. I imagine Arizona is also a better place to be, closer to family, cheaper, and qualifies for US Gov't financial aid.

 

[TexasPhysician]

As a new SDN member I am not aware of the numerous threads that have discussed this topic. To the crowd's dismay, I am asking for advice on my current dilemma. I have received acceptances from Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine and St. George's University in the Caribbean. I am equally excited about both opportunities but can not firmly decide on either school. As a California resident, AZCOM easily comes away as the convenient situation but it seems through my research that St. George's has better residency placements. If surgery is my speciality of desire, is one school really better than the other?? I understand people do not like discussing DO vs. MD, but I know the value of each and am trying to evaluate if one choice gives me an advantage for future opportunities. Any advice is greatly appreciated...

Your information here is dead wrong my friend.

 

[TexasPhysician]

DO without a doubt. You'll have the option of doing allo residency or an osteo residency. FMG is a signifigantly greater disadvantage. I imagine Arizona is also a better place to be, closer to family, cheaper, and qualifies for US Gov't financial aid.

On your signature, you have a rotation called "CHF". Seriously? There is a rotation at your school for Congestive Heart Failure or am I missing something?

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Maybe community health something?

 

[NRAI2001]

DO without a doubt. You'll have the option of doing allo residency or an osteo residency. FMG is a signifigantly greater disadvantage. I imagine Arizona is also a better place to be, closer to family, cheaper, and qualifies for US Gov't financial aid.

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

 

[Mr hawkings]

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

Your opinion is a bit biased, isnt it?

 

[synapse lapse]

On your signature, you have a rotation called "CHF". Seriously? There is a rotation at your school for Congestive Heart Failure or am I missing something?

No, we take a month of Internal Medicine subspecialty that's required and I had CHF.

 

[PRIMER]

do

 

[synapse lapse]

But that still doesn't answer what the CHF stands for.

congestive heart failure.

 

[NRAI2001]

Your opinion is a bit biased, isnt it?

I dont thinks so...if you see my posts from about 2 years ago i was leaning more towards DO then decided SGU. Talked to my parents (both Docs) and like atleast 20 doctors in my area (California) and THEY ALL SAID go carribean before DO. I think California is one of the few remaining states where the DO bias is greater than the foreign/carribean bias (either way they both experience bias; Carrib from other Docs which can be annoying; DOs from patients which can be much more dangerous as you depend on the patients for your practice)

A few brought up a very convincing story that kinda pushed me towards SGU bc at the time I was leaning heavily on the DO route...about how there were a few DOs in a few of the practices a few years ago (5 or 6 years ago) and how all the docs know that they are MD equivalents with residencies ...etc but they patients didnt know that. Many of the patients didnt want to be seen by the DOs and in the end the groups had to let the DOs go, those groups (Primary care, cardiology, and surgery) still have Carribean and true foreign docs working for them.

I still believe that SGU matches better at the allopathic spots than DO school; BUT the DO schools have the advantage of applying to DO only specialties which even if they are regarded less than allopathic ones they still get you the residency you want (ortho, rads, ent..etc)

 

[HPSPpayissues]

A few brought up a very convincing story that kinda pushed me towards SGU bc at the time I was leaning heavily on the DO route...about how there were a few DOs in a few of the practices a few years ago (5 or 6 years ago) and how all the docs know that they are MD equivalents with residencies ...etc but they patients didnt know that. Many of the patients didnt want to be seen by the DOs and in the end the groups had to let the DOs go, those groups (Primary care, cardiology, and surgery) still have a Carribean and true foreign docs working for them.

This brings back memory when I was seen by a DO doctor during my undergrad a couple years ago. My initial reaction was 'will I get to see a real doctor?'..... I didn't even know what DO was back then, and I lived in California 😱

 

[Mr hawkings]

I dont thinks so...if you see my posts from about 2 years ago i was leaning more towards DO then decided SGU. Talked to my parents (both Docs) and like atleast 20 doctors in my area (California) and THEY ALL SAID go carribean before DO. I think California is one of the few remaining states where the DO bias is greater than the foreign/carribean bias (either way they both experience bias; Carrib from other Docs which can be annoying; DOs from patients which can be much more dangerous as you depend on the patients for your practice)

A few brought up a very convincing story that kinda pushed me towards SGU bc at the time I was leaning heavily on the DO route...about how there were a few DOs in a few of the practices a few years ago (5 or 6 years ago) and how all the docs know that they are MD equivalents with residencies ...etc but they patients didnt know that. Many of the patients didnt want to be seen by the DOs and in the end the groups had to let the DOs go, those groups (Primary care, cardiology, and surgery) still have Carribean and true foreign docs working for them.
I still believe that SGU matches better at the allopathic spots than DO school; BUT the DO schools have the advantage of applying to DO only specialties which even if they are regarded less than allopathic ones they still get you the residency you want (ortho, rads, ent..etc)

I agree with you totally if the OP ends up doing residency in the states.
The issue here is that assuming he/she is an average med student, he would be at a disadvantage when it comes to competing for residency spots.

Yes, there are some people out there who look down on DOs maybe fewer anti FMG but all that wont matter if you end up struggling to scramble into the last spot in a specialty you dont want in a region you dont want to live in.

So my argument is, go where you have the best chance landing a residency of your choice and having a little control over your destiny.

 

[DarkHorizon]

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

Please check out the DO match list thread, here's the link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=612056

Most of the rads matches are MD and so are pretty much all gas matches. Surgical subspecialties however are very difficult to attain for DOs in ACGME world I must admit. I would imagine that same is true for SGU grads.

 

[ofoshoukno]

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

No offense.

But your very ill informed. All of the Caribbean med students I know, would sell their souls to become US D.O.'s. In fact the majority of Caribbean med students couldn't get into D.O. schools-not that they chose not to do D.O.

ps- and no NYCOM doesn't graduate 400 students per year, I am sorry but they aren't open admission.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

b All of the Caribbean med students I know, would sell their souls to become US D.O.'s.

I wouldn't sell anything to attend med school, not even Harvard Med. Medicine is not all that hyped up to be. It is just another profession, albeit a great one... There are so many more important things in life, dude.

 

[mjl1717]

DO

Matching as a FMG has become very difficult

Agree, the decision is pretty much a "slam dunk"....
Unless the guy wants a looong vaction in the caribbean...

 

[TexasPhysician]

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

I respect you sticking up from your school, and I am sure many graduates from St. George's do fine. Still, plenty of your comments are false.

Maybe you only saw a couple DO match lists, but most of which I would consider stronger than SGU's. Most DOs match ACGME positions, even when they go subspecialty. Check TCOM's match lists - off the top of my head I know recent grads in good ACGME subspecialty programs. With the hundreds of non-competitive residencies I see on SGU's match list, it is hard to find subspecialties on SGU's list much less in competitive locations. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm glad SGU is helping with the primary care shortage we have in the US. I'm considering primary care myself. Fact is: Fewer people match subspecialties at SGU than DO schools.

DO schools range in class sizes from under 100 to NYCOM class of 270ish I believe. No where touches near 400 that I can think of. Do you have links to support your numbers?

I guess Grenada is like a poor US city that has a queen and plays cricket more than baseball......

True - if you are a DO with poorer scores then you CAN match AOA subspecialties. Competitive DO's match subspecialty positions in ACGME spots routinely.

Disclaimer: I am NEITHER a DO or foreign MD.

 

[baseballbabe]

While I agree that going to a DO school is probably a better route, I disagree with your generalization that people who went to island schools went because they couldn't get into even a DO school. there are still quite a few people who would do anything to stay away from the DO title and keep the MD title. I know quite a few people like this who could've gotten in DO schools but just did not want the DO title because some people still associate a stigma with it. They would've gone caribbean and in several cases did go caribbean. So don't assume.

Last but not least, people say SGU is the most competitive offshore school with standards similar to some DO schools as opposed to Ross or lesser known schools which will take most anyone.

So I think it is not a fair comparison. yet, I'd still go with the DO in the OPs case.

And the Caribbean route doesn't carry a stigma?...

 

[Handy388]

I did a healthgrades search for family practice physicians in Berkeley, CA, a specialty generally with the highest number of DOs.

http://www.healthgrades.com/consume...ts&specialty=20&state=ca&city=berkeley&page=1

among all the results, there is one DO.

it seems that DO physicians just MIGHT have a hard time breaking into California.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I did a healthgrades search for family practice physicians in Berkeley, CA, a specialty generally with the highest number of DOs.

http://www.healthgrades.com/consume...ts&specialty=20&state=ca&city=berkeley&page=1

among all the results, there is one DO.

it seems that DO physicians just MIGHT have a hard time breaking into California.

Not a very good study to come to any conclusions like you just did. What is the percentage of DO compared to MDs again? You will have much fewer DO's in almost every city.

If there aren't many DO's in CA, I would think it would be a good niche to begin. CA (state full of wealthy people) is a good state for alternative medicine techniques, so I would think OMM would do great there. More speculation on my part but something for DO's to think about.

 

[NRAI2001]

again this wasn't me who made that decision so why are you pointing out this to me. I'm just making a point that some people think the DO stigma is worse then going offshore and some think the other way around. I was not making a point of which is a worse stigma. You quite obviously didn't realize the point of my post which was to show that not everyone in the islands is there because they couldn't get in a DO school or MD school in the states. Not always the case.

They both carry stigmas....thats just reality. They are not huge stigmas but they still exist, and I m sure those MDs that went to IVY league or UCs probably associate going to low tier US schools with stigma also...just as a neurosurgeon probably thinks that a Stanford trained FP is lesser of a doctor...


The point I m trying to make is that they both face stigmas:

Carribean: from other docs that actually know that an MD from the carribean was atleast initially easier to get into.

DO: from other docs (some may argue to a lesser degree than carrib) BUT DOs will DEFINITELY FACE MORE BIAS FROM PATIENTS, something which MDs from the carribean will not. THis bias can be (I ve seen it personally) so large that a group may let you go bc no/few patients are happy seeing you bc they dont understand what a DO is and want to see a "real doctor"

 

[NRAI2001]

I respect you sticking up from your school, and I am sure many graduates from St. George's do fine. Still, plenty of your comments are false.

Maybe you only saw a couple DO match lists, but most of which I would consider stronger than SGU's. Most DOs match ACGME positions, even when they go subspecialty. Check TCOM's match lists - off the top of my head I know recent grads in good ACGME subspecialty programs. With the hundreds of non-competitive residencies I see on SGU's match list, it is hard to find subspecialties on SGU's list much less in competitive locations. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm glad SGU is helping with the primary care shortage we have in the US. I'm considering primary care myself. Fact is: Fewer people match subspecialties at SGU than DO schools.

DO schools range in class sizes from under 100 to NYCOM class of 270ish I believe. No where touches near 400 that I can think of. Do you have links to support your numbers?

I guess Grenada is like a poor US city that has a queen and plays cricket more than baseball......

True - if you are a DO with poorer scores then you CAN match AOA subspecialties. Competitive DO's match subspecialty positions in ACGME spots routinely.

Disclaimer: I am NEITHER a DO or foreign MD.

Yes I think the DO students do match more in the subspecialites (not IM subspecialties but those like ENT, ortho, rads...) but these are almost exclusively at DO residencies (I know that there some that match at allo ones also)..

But a comparison of allopathic matches for a good carrib school like SGU and good DO schools like NYCOM, CCOM, PCOM...will show that SGU matches better at allo locations.

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2008/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

You can group the sgu matches by match or location by clicking on the title of either..

 

[sarahg]

As a new SDN member I am not aware of the numerous threads that have discussed this topic. To the crowd's dismay, I am asking for advice on my current dilemma. I have received acceptances from Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine and St. George's University in the Caribbean. I am equally excited about both opportunities but can not firmly decide on either school. As a California resident, AZCOM easily comes away as the convenient situation but it seems through my research that St. George's has better residency placements. If surgery is my speciality of desire, is one school really better than the other?? I understand people do not like discussing DO vs. MD, but I know the value of each and am trying to evaluate if one choice gives me an advantage for future opportunities. Any advice is greatly appreciated...

When looking at the residency lists remember that SGU takes like 700 students. SGU placing 25 students in surgery is like your average US school placing 25 students in surgery over the course of seven years. I don't know much about AZCOM but when you look at how many students place in different competitive residencies remember that they have less students than SGU and that osteopathic schools also attract students who are more interested in primary care.

 

[gtleeee]

I did a healthgrades search for family practice physicians in Berkeley, CA, a specialty generally with the highest number of DOs.

http://www.healthgrades.com/consume...ts&specialty=20&state=ca&city=berkeley&page=1

among all the results, there is one DO.

it seems that DO physicians just MIGHT have a hard time breaking into California.

I am one of 2 D.O.'s in a highly regarded E.M. group based in San Francisco. I had no problem 4 years ago getting hired and the large (400 beds) hospital I work at now (recently switched work sites but still with same E.M. group) has many D.O. specialists working in fields radiology to invasive cardiology. Have never heard of any instances from any of these D.O.'s of their degree hampering them them in any way working in California. Am glad I am a D.O. with a quarter century in the profession and not a premed having to read some of the outright drivel presented on SDN by people who seemingly purport to "know it all".

I read and on occassion submit posts on SDN in order to present views from a D.O. working in California with a few years of "real world" experience.

 

[Handy388]

I am one of 2 D.O.'s in a highly regarded E.M. group based in San Francisco. I had no problem 4 years ago getting hired and the large (400 beds) hospital I work at now (recently switched work sites but still with same E.M. group) has many D.O. specialists working in fields radiology to invasive cardiology. Have never heard of any instances from any of these D.O.'s of their degree hampering them them in any way working in California. Am glad I am a D.O. with a quarter century in the profession and not a premed having to read some of the outright drivel presented on SDN by people who seemingly purport to "know it all".

I read and on occassion submit posts on SDN in order to present views from a D.O. working in California with a few years of "real world" experience.

glad to hear this

 

[Bacchus]

SGU is eligible for US Govt financial aid...

I researched the subject a lot 2 years ago when I was making the decision. SGU has better allopathic placements than most DO schools...and yes SGU graduates a lot of students but so do most DO schools (I think NYCOM graduates 300 to 400 also a year??).

The 2 biggest advantages a DO student has: (1) obviously you dont have to leave the US (but being in the carribean for 2 years now its not as bad as you may think..I feel like i m still in the US). (2) The DO exclusive match..which kinda excludes you from matching into allopathic spots bc its earlier than the allopathic match. --> most of the DOs matching into Rads, ortho, anesth are going this route (dont see many matching into the Allopathic route for these)...from what I hear these programs are generally less regarded than the allo programs and often under funded BUT it does get you into the field you want I suppose??

With salary the same, does it even matter?

 

[Bacchus]

For some reason I don't expect a shortage of patients any time soon.

 

[itsallthesame]

something that would worry me... is that the sgu match list does not differentiate between categorical and prelim spots.

you do NOT want to end up matched to a prelim surgery spot where you'll end up bouncing around and doing three/four internship years until you finally give up and take a real family practice slot. i would worry very seriously about any match list that doesn't indicate which slots were prelim (because it probably indicates that more than a desirable number are).

 

[TexasPhysician]

Yes I think the DO students do match more in the subspecialites (not IM subspecialties but those like ENT, ortho, rads...) but these are almost exclusively at DO residencies (I know that there some that match at allo ones also)..

But a comparison of allopathic matches for a good carrib school like SGU and good DO schools like NYCOM, CCOM, PCOM...will show that SGU matches better at allo locations.

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2008/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

You can group the sgu matches by match or location by clicking on the title of either..

TCOM 2009 Match List
Anesthesia 4 of 4 matched ACGME
Dermatology 1 of 1 matched ACGME
Emergency Medicine 16 of 16 matched ACGME
Ophtho 1 of 1 matched AOA
Radiology 2 of 2 matched ACGME
Ortho Surgery 1 of 1 matched ACGME

TCOM only has what.....something like 140 medical students graduating. 1 matched a residency outside of ACGME (DO match) in a competitive field.

 

[gtleeee]

TCOM 2009 Match List
Anesthesia 4 of 4 matched ACGME
Dermatology 1 of 1 matched ACGME
Emergency Medicine 16 of 16 matched ACGME
Ophtho 1 of 1 matched AOA
Radiology 2 of 2 matched ACGME
Ortho Surgery 1 of 1 matched ACGME

TCOM only has what.....something like 140 medical students graduating. 1 matched a residency outside of ACGME (DO match) in a competitive field.

I do know that the E.M. docs I have worked with that were SGU grads have all been competent with a couple outstanding in knowledge and skills. These experiences give me a very good opinion of SGU as a medical school. I cannot say the same for a couple of the other offshore schools including Ross. In fact, SGU is the only Caribbean school whose graduates I have found to be predictably competent and more. If I were young again and confronted (again) with the choice between an Osteopathic institution and any Caribbean school it would still be a no brainer for the D.O. route, except......perhaps.....SGU.

 

[NRAI2001]

I am one of 2 D.O.'s in a highly regarded E.M. group based in San Francisco. I had no problem 4 years ago getting hired and the large (400 beds) hospital I work at now (recently switched work sites but still with same E.M. group) has many D.O. specialists working in fields radiology to invasive cardiology. Have never heard of any instances from any of these D.O.'s of their degree hampering them them in any way working in California. Am glad I am a D.O. with a quarter century in the profession and not a premed having to read some of the outright drivel presented on SDN by people who seemingly purport to "know it all".

I read and on occassion submit posts on SDN in order to present views from a D.O. working in California with a few years of "real world" experience.

Thats cool to hear👍

SGU has over 30 anethesiology matches (field that I m very interested in) and i think close to 20 or so radiology matches (out of about 400 graduate every year) and 2 or 3 ortho matches and 2 or 3 optho matches...the rest are IM, Peds, ...etc at mainly mid tier university allopathic spots with some upper tier spots mixed in (cornell, columbia, yale...etc) getting IM at upper tier spots will help you to get fellowships later (cardiology, Pulm, neph...etc) which is often discounted by many premeds...surgery I m not so sure about how SGU does in bc I m really not that interested in it (anesth or IM --> subspeciality for me)👍

Either way the OP is in a pretty good situation...SGU is a great school (dont trust other carrib school completely) and DO schools are great options also..SGU and upper DO school are about on par IMHO..