Forensic Pathology Fellowship in NY?

[hoechst]

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I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I did a search and could not find anything definitive. Is there a forensic pathology fellowship in NY or not? The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner of NYC is a total mess with links that are mostly broken. On online wiki's the fellowship is sometimes listed and sometimes not, never with a functioning link. What is up with this?? Anyone have any more info?

 

[mlw03]

Unless something has changed in the very recent past, yes, the NYC OCME does offer a forensic pathology fellowship. When I was looking, I was told that they virtually never accept candidates who have not rotated there, and since I couldn't do so I did not apply. But yes, NYC is generally considered one of the "big 4" for FP training, and takes up to 4 fellows per year.

 

[dr4n6]

I'm curious, what other FP fellowships do you consider to be members of the "big 4" club? To the OP, I have consistently heard that there is a fair amount of staff turnover at the NY ME's Office.

 

[Entgegen]

I'm curious, what other FP fellowships do you consider to be members of the "big 4" club? To the OP, I have consistently heard that there is a fair amount of staff turnover at the NY ME's Office.

Traditionally the "Big 4" have been Baltimore, NYC, Miami, and New Mexico, with New Mexico often being mentioned at the top.

Someone can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but I've heard independently from several people (a PD from one program, a fellow at another program who did residency at NM and left for fellowship elsewhere, and another who did their fellowship there) that NM isn't all it's cracked up to be...there are only about 1,800 cases per year and they're all split up between 4 fellows and all their residents, with fellows fighting over cases, etc. Granted, these are all things I've been told by others who may or may not have had an axe to grind, so take it for what it's worth.

I will say that I have personal experience at the 2 big offices in Texas (Dallas and Houston), and both are great programs. Both see about 3,700 - 4,000 cases a year and each has only 2 fellows who get first pick of the cases.

My 2 cents...

 

[Circumflex]

I would like to echo mlw03 - when I was applying several years ago, NYC was one of the most competitive programs and they did not accept anyone who did not do a formal 1-month rotation (used as an audition rotation). Also, you have to apply approx. 2 years in advance because the positions fill quickly. Not sure if this is still the case, but I would be surprised if it is not. FYI, the chief ME, Dr. Hirsch is or has already stepped down and the Deputy Chief, Barbara Sampson is acting chief.

 

[mlw03]

I'll address, best as I can, some of the comments in the last few posts. Yes, the traditional big four program in FP are UNM, Miami, NYC, and Baltimore. Each can take up to 4 fellows per year and collectively they probably train 25-30% of all FPs in North America. For example, in my office, 2 of the 9 of us did so. That said, there are many other great programs, with excellent staff and case variety. Off the top of my head these would include Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Denver, Seattle, and Chicago.

I know very little about the UNM program, so I can't address the above concerns. I do know their volume is lower, and they don't have the crazy-high number of homicides like in many of the urban programs. UNM has a reputation of probably being the most " academic" of the big 4, since they are physically and administratively much more connected to their university than most programs. In addition to the forensic cases, they provide autopsy services to UNM hospitals. Two of my fellowship faculty came from UNM and both were excellent, and despite the lower homicide numbers out there had plenty of expertise with GSWs. I did over 300 total cases and 70 homicides during my fellowship in Baltimore, which was a heck of a lot. There are pros and cons to this kind of volume, and each candidate has to decide what will be best for their career. I kid not when I say I'm still more comfortable with GSW cases than I am with complex toxicology-related cases.

I don't know about staff turnover in NYC. I can say that in the 3 years I've been looking, I've not seen a single ad for positions there on the two main sites where North American FP jobs get posted. But LOTS of jobs in FP get filled without ever being formally advertised. It's a small community - most of us know or at least know of most of the rest of us.

 

[KCShaw]

Unfortunately many ME offices have a poor web presence. Somehow this seems to be more pronounced with large offices which depend on state or county web administration, so I'm saddened but not surprised to hear NYC may be having such problems. Yes it's been pretty highly regarded, along with the other offices mentioned, for fellowship training. As far as I'm aware Dr. Zumwalt at UNM built the reputation it now has; I believe he's still around but transitioned out of the chief role. If they're only doing 1800 cases, 4 fellows seems a little heavy especially once one adds in all the residents and elective rotators, but be that as it may I haven't heard anything bad of it. There comes a point when more cases is just more bodies, not necessarily more teaching -- in fact it can be less, as everyone simply struggles to keep up with the case load. But philosophies vary. In some places fellows may only do 200-225 cases but do a lot of workup and reading about those cases (UNM I think is more like this), while at other places fellows do 300+ and historically some may have done 400+ with the idea that seeing more is important not only for experience but to improve efficiency. I think the same can be said about the various other AP fellowships. It's all about finding the place that suits you best, keeping in mind the place that suits you best for fellowship need not necessarily be the kind of place you want to work your entire career in.