Freshman Freakout- Chances?

[MedHistorian]

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Hey everyone, I just finished my Freshman year and as predicted I did a stellar job in royally screwing up my grades. I was hoping you all could shed some light, and possibly ease my nerves, on my capability to get into med school. (particularly Alpert Medical School) My current grades are:

Quarter 1: Quarter2: Quarter 3:
Gen Chem: C Gen Chem: B- Gen Chem: B+
Calc: C Calc: C- Calc: C+
Sociology: B English: A- English: A
Neurobiology: B+ History: A Genetics: A-

Essentially I am petrified that my Calculus grades are going to be the complete death of me to get into my school of choice. I am completely aware that there are applicants with significantly higher gpa's than mine who still get denied, however if I were to (hypothetically for now as I have yet to demonstrate the capability) completely dominate my next 3 years, as I plan on applying after my senior year of college to allow for optimum gpa growth, and achieve an average science gpa of 3.7 and an overall cumulative gpa of 3.76 [which is possible, i have already mapped out my courses and their respective credit values] would I actually have a chance of getting in. Based upon my research of Brown's Med school, their average acceptance science gpa is a 3.66 from their website, however will my three C's in Calc be the reason why i wont get in even with a gpa average higher than their average? I simply struggled with adjusting, there is no real big sob story or illness that inhibited my abilities, granted i was not on the best terms with my parents, but the fault of the grades are my own. I am just very sad/nervous that I have already ruined something that I have already been working so hard to do.

Extra information about me that may help with your evaluation:
- I am a double major: Bio Sci (with and emphasis on neurology) and History (with a concentration on East Asian Studies)
-I have my own personal research which is an analytical view on the evolution of medicine [concerning how and what it evolved to], I am currently working on getting it published
-I will attain more than enough community service hours that reflect consistent attention to public health through teaching middle schoolers.
-I will work at an acupuncture clinic (to go along with my research)

Thanks for the help guys! Even just writing this down makes me feel slightly better.....

 

[mspeedwagon]

Sorry to be the one to burst your bubble BUT you have absolutely NO chance at Brown. I'm not sure why you are interested in Brown in particular? Based on your grades you are not a Brown undergrad OR likely a RI resident (I don't remember any schools in RI being on the quarter system).

The main reason is Brown is one of the hardest schools to get into off AMCAS. If you are not in the PLME program or attending a linkage program with Brown or a RI resident / Brown alum with high stats you will NOT get in. Brown takes less than 50 kids from AMCAS (virtually all RI residents or Brown alum with high stats OR URM with high stats).

It's often easier to get into Harvard/Stanford/Yale etc. than Brown for med school. The published GPA is deceiving since it includes PLME (BS/MD) kids. It's substantially lower than that of those they take off AMCAS.

To be competitive for Brown as a non-PLME student that is not a RI resident or URM you need at least a 3.8/35.

 

[cfx]

I would say that it's not going to kill your chances, but you really need to kick your academics into high gear if you're serious about getting in. From what I understand, admissions committees are more understanding of early poor grades followed by a clear upward trend. So if you can do well from here on out, it might be seen as more circumstantial than revealing of a lack of ability. Especially if you can get good grades in the higher level courses.

You can also always retake the courses that you got C's in.

If you can get your grades up, keep pushing with the solid ECs, and do well on your MCAT, I'm sure you may still have a good shot

 

[mspeedwagon]

Probably true for EVERY other med school in the country EXCEPT Brown. Remember that almost all the seats at Brown are filled before they even begin to evaluate kids from AMCAS. I'm very familiar with Brown since I conduct interviews for their PLME program. As such, any one applying off AMCAS has a poor chance at best (regardless of stats).

Read through this thread where I elaborate on chances of someone getting into Brown (less than 0.2% with fairly good stats): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9790732#post9790732

If you can get your grades up, keep pushing with the solid ECs, and do well on your MCAT, I'm sure you may still have a good shot

 

[cfx]

Probably true for EVERY other med school in the country EXCEPT Brown. Remember that almost all the seats at Brown are filled before they even begin to evaluate kids from AMCAS. I'm very familiar with Brown since I conduct interviews for their PLME program. As such, any one applying off AMCAS has a poor chance at best (regardless of stats).

I was just going to clarify this. I was referring to OP's chances at med school in general. I must've skimmed past the stuff referencing Brown specifically.

@OP--Why so intent on Brown?

 

[MedHistorian]

I completely understand your reasoning, and appreciate your honesty and insight. I wont necessarily give up, if it is a 3.8 i need, it is a 3.8 i will get, with an MCAT score to match. My capabilities/ the amount of people accepted to a school is not my main concern ( as stupid as that is). My only fear for med school is my fear that I will note be taken simply because of my performance in Calc, even with a gpa that matches the schools. Based upon that, would you say I would not get in? Given that by achieving a 3.8 I would have the most massive upward trend possible, a 4.0- which technically is still possible based upon my numbers and what not.

I wish to attend Brown because of its MD program, its offers me everything I want from a medical school, particularly through their Scholarly Concentrations Program, which will allow me to integrate the study of medicine/public health to other disciplines concerning the humanities and arts, along with supplying me with experiential education which is invaluable to a any scholar.

Concerning the linkage programs to Brown, I though that it was stopped in 2005-2006 with Dartmouth, it was said that the last graduating class that received admissions to brown through such a linkage method will graduate in 2010. However there could be more.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I actually personally know the admissions director at Brown, am a Brown alum and interview for the PLME program. I talked to the Brown admissions officer about my application and she didn't think it was worth my while as an URM/Brown alum to apply to Brown because my chances would be slim. She suggested other Ivy League/top tier medical schools if I could break a 33 on the MCAT. That should give you a perspective on how Brown feels about those applying off AMCAS. I currently have a 3.6cGPA/3.5science. I'll likely have a 3.7 cGPA (3.6 science) by the time I apply (admissions director still thought I'd have a better chance elsewhere UNLESS I also established RI state residency). Basically for me to get in it would take being a Brown alum, RI resident, URM and high stats to be considered a good candidate for Brown. Those are the ONLY types of kids Brown takes off AMCAS.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the "C" alone won't keep you out, but you have a lot working against you to be able to attend Brown.

A lot of medical schools have programs similar to the Scholarly Concentrations Program. Basically you are actually better off applying MD/MPH anywhere and you'll get a comparable education. The program is just billed well by Brown. Most MPH candidates apply public health to other disciplines across the humanities and arts. They also have the added benefit of giving you another useful degree.

Finally, I was talking about post-bac linkages (not the Dartmouth program... which no longer exists). There are post-bac programs you can attend (if you were not a science major) where you can be guaranteed a spot in medical school if you maintain certain stats. Many of them have linkages with Brown... Goucher, Scripps, Bryn Mawr etc. Brown med maintains a decent amount of seats for these kids. And Brown is adding more to this category: JHU newly added Brown: http://web.jhu.edu/post_bac/medical_school.html. These means that there are even LESS seats off AMCAS to Brown med.

EDIT: You'll likely get into medical school and be fine. I'd just advise you against having your heart set on the HARDEST school in the country to be admitted to off AMCAS.

 

[MedHistorian]

mspeedwagon:
I read up on your stats when you first posted on this thread XD I am in no way doubting your reasoning, in fact I was enthusiastic that you were from Brown, and again i really do appreciate the honesty. I will still try of course, however I am more aware. I understand how hard it is to get in, and that there are other programs SIMILAR to Brown's, but I want the best. Though, again, I totally hear you in saying that Brown is especially hard- but those .2% of people who get in are more than enough for me to apply. I really feel that Brown is for me, however things will work out the way they will. As long as the fact that if I do the best I can and raise my grades to that of a competitive gpa, and that my "c's" will look the way they were, circumstantial, then I will still try. Again, thank you, I will be far more openminded concerning where I apply, and I greatly appreciate your advice! I wish you the greatest, I am sure 2012 will be a great year for you! 🙂

cfx:
I totally hear you in the fact that i NEED to kick it up to high gear! I was simply concerned that even if i was able to achieve the desirable gpa and what not that it wouldn't matter because of what I have already attained. Thanks for the words of advice, I feel better already!

 

[mspeedwagon]

I wanted to let you know what you are up against. As much as I would love to go back to Brown, I will not be applying there. Despite all of what I have said, if there is a school you see yourself at no matter what, you should definitely apply (b/c the chances, while slim, are never 0%). Better to know for a fact that you are rejected than to always wonder "what if." I was surprised by your interest in Brown since it isn't a top tier school (ranking is abysmal actually). Also, to others reading this thread, remember that Brown is one of the hardest school to be accept to off AMCAS and please do make your checks out to m-speedwagon (see linked thread in my post above). But best of luck to you OP!

Edit: I wanted to add that the main reason I'm not applying to Brown (other than the fact that admissions director told me my chances weren't great), is that I can see myself equally as happy at other schools I have a better shot at.

mspeedwagon:
I read up on your stats when you first posted on this thread XD I am in no way doubting your reasoning, in fact I was enthusiastic that you were from Brown, and again i really do appreciate the honesty. I will still try of course, however I am more aware. I understand how hard it is to get in, and that there are other programs SIMILAR to Brown's, but I want the best. Though, again, I totally hear you in saying that Brown is especially hard- but those .2% of people who get in are more than enough for me to apply. I really feel that Brown is for me, however things will work out the way they will. As long as the fact that if I do the best I can and raise my grades to that of a competitive gpa, and that my "c's" will look the way they were, circumstantial, then I will still try. Again, thank you, I will be far more openminded concerning where I apply, and I greatly appreciate your advice! I wish you the greatest, I am sure 2012 will be a great year for you! 🙂

 

[taciturngirl]

I actually personally know the admissions director at Brown, am a Brown alum and interview for the PLME program. I talked to the Brown admissions officer about my application and she didn't think it was worth my while as an URM/Brown alum to apply to Brown because my chances would be slim. She suggested other Ivy League/top tier medical schools if I could break a 33 on the MCAT. That should give you a perspective on how Brown feels about those applying off AMCAS. I currently have a 3.6cGPA/3.5science. I'll likely have a 3.7 cGPA (3.6 science) by the time I apply (admissions director still thought I'd have a better chance elsewhere UNLESS I also established RI state residency). Basically for me to get in it would take being a Brown alum, RI resident, URM and high stats to be considered a good candidate for Brown. Those are the ONLY types of kids Brown takes off AMCAS.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the "C" alone won't keep you out, but you have a lot working against you to be able to attend Brown.

A lot of medical schools have programs similar to the Scholarly Concentrations Program. Basically you are actually better off applying MD/MPH anywhere and you'll get a comparable education. The program is just billed well by Brown. Most MPH candidates apply public health to other disciplines across the humanities and arts. They also have the added benefit of giving you another useful degree.

Finally, I was talking about post-bac linkages (not the Dartmouth program... which no longer exists). There are post-bac programs you can attend (if you were not a science major) where you can be guaranteed a spot in medical school if you maintain certain stats. Many of them have linkages with Brown... Goucher, Scripps, Bryn Mawr etc. Brown med maintains a decent amount of seats for these kids. And Brown is adding more to this category: JHU newly added Brown: http://web.jhu.edu/post_bac/medical_school.html. These means that there are even LESS seats off AMCAS to Brown med.

EDIT: You'll likely get into medical school and be fine. I'd just advise you against having your heart set on the HARDEST school in the country to be admitted to off AMCAS.

I have no doubt that you're correct that Brown is incredibly hard to get into through AMCAS. However, it's not necessary to have sky-high stats. I have a friend who got in during the 2008-2009 cycle; he had a 32 and 3.7 (sci and cum). I have another friend who got in this cycle with about equivalent stats and another friend who got an interview with a 3.4 and 34. They were not applying through any linkage program. The common factor is that they are all very nice, service-oriented non-trad applicants - maybe that's the key??

 

[mspeedwagon]

This is the NIRVANA application for Brown. Join the peace corps... do something similar and you have a shot at Brown. I was not going to mention this as I assumed the OP wanted to go straight from undergrad to med school. This is the other way to get into Brown med if you want to spend a few years doing it and another suggestion the admissions officer made to me. I thought she was insane... give up a $100k a year job to join the peace corps to maybe have a shot at Brown med... thanks, but no thanks.

The common factor is that they are all very nice, service-oriented non-trad applicants - maybe that's the key??

 

[MedHistorian]

Actually, my intentions were to take a year off, as i would not apply until after my senior year, and the peace corps is a possible interest lol. Either way, I feel that the moral of this story is as long as you stand out, and demonstrate mastery of material, you stand a chance. haha, good inspiration for anyone losing sleep over this stressful process we put ourselves through XD

 

[mspeedwagon]

You are going to need more than one year for this approach.

Taciturngirl: when you said those you knew were non-trads, how much time are we talking between their undergrad and them applying? My guess is 3-5 yrs, but can you confirm please.

Actually, my intentions were to take a year off, as i would not apply until after my senior year, and the peace corps is a possible interest lol. Either way, I feel that the moral of this story is as long as you stand out, and demonstrate mastery of material, you stand a chance. haha, good inspiration for anyone losing sleep over this stressful process we put ourselves through XD

 

[MedHistorian]

So, just to get some clarification (and ease my paranoia) If I am to receive a competitive science and cumulative gpa, as designated by a med school of any kind [not just Brown], my C's really shouldnt be a problem? I guess in retrospect that makes sense seeing as I would need higher gpa scores to balance out my freshman start, but i just want to be sure that as long as I can get the grades, I will be considered competitive. Thanks again!

 

[mspeedwagon]

For med schools in general as long as you have no grade lower than a C and a high cGPA at the end of it (preferably coupled with a strong MCAT), the fact you got a C or two out of the gate won't matter.

So, just to get some clarification (and ease my paranoia) If I am to receive a competitive science and cumulative gpa, as designated by a med school of any kind [not just Brown], my C's really shouldnt be a problem? I guess in retrospect that makes sense seeing as I would need higher gpa scores to balance out my freshman start, but i just want to be sure that as long as I can get the grades, I will be considered competitive. Thanks again!

 

[deleted316655]

Probably true for EVERY other med school in the country EXCEPT Brown. Remember that almost all the seats at Brown are filled before they even begin to evaluate kids from AMCAS. I'm very familiar with Brown since I conduct interviews for their PLME program. As such, any one applying off AMCAS has a poor chance at best (regardless of stats).

This is sort of off-topic, but you say that you interview for their PLME program. What is looked for when applications are looked at, and what is the overall GPA/ SAT scores for accepted applicants?

 

[mspeedwagon]

Unfortunately interviewers are NOT given access to applicant stats. I'm blinded to the stats so I can make an assessment of "FIT" with the program and the school. Basically I access if students are truly interested and knowledgeable about Brown and for the PLME health care (I can give you examples of why I wrote non-favorable reviews for applicants recently... the worst was one girl who had EVERYTHING going for her EXCEPT how she answered "why medicine?" Her answer was basically since a young age I saw sick people and have always wanted to help BUT not one of her ECs spoke to this. Never volunteered at a hospital, never talked to doctors about the interest etc. Every now and again I'm blown away by the application (couple of the kids accomplish more in high school than most do in their four years of college) and find myself writing a book on why to accept these applicants (I've had this kids end up on the wait list for the most part... I'm assuming good fit/lower stats).

Basically the whole point of the above was I don't know what the stats for the PLME program are now. Back in the day (when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the SAT was out of 1600, you need a 1450 to be competitive and a GPA of above 3.75). I'd imagine the stats are slightly higher now.

This is sort of off-topic, but you say that you interview for their PLME program. What is looked for when applications are looked at, and what is the overall GPA/ SAT scores for accepted applicants?

 

[schrizto]

I'm very familiar with Brown since I conduct interviews for their PLME program.

Can you clarify? I happen to know that PLME does not conduct medical school interviews specifically for applicants to the PLME program. They do have local alumni interviews, which are optional and available to all Brown applicants, but those interviewers have close to zero input on Alpert's decision.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Mostly true EXCEPT if you designate your application for PLME you end up with an alumni interview that has experience interviewing PLME students. The decision for acceptance PLME is made almost solely by undergrad admissions and NOT Alpert.

I used to be a local alumni doing only interviews for biology majors. I was contact by admissions asking if I would like to interview for the PLME program (since I started considering med school at the same time, it seemed like a good gig).

Also, I have NEVER had an applicant get into Brown if they turn down the alumni interview. While they bill this as optional it really is not if you want a shot at being admitted.

P.S. After interviewing PLME applicants and other Brown applicants, it's a lot more fun to interview the latter. After a while, all PLME applicants seem generic.

Can you clarify? I happen to know that PLME does not conduct medical school interviews specifically for applicants to the PLME program. They do have local alumni interviews, which are optional and available to all Brown applicants, but those interviewers have close to zero input on Alpert's decision.

 

[schrizto]

Mostly true EXCEPT if you designate your application for PLME you end up with an alumni interview that has experience interviewing PLME students. The decision for acceptance PLME is made almost solely by undergrad admissions and NOT Alpert.

I used to be a local alumni doing only interviews for biology majors. I was contact by admissions asking if I would like to interview for the PLME program (since I started considering med school at the same time, it seemed like a good gig).

On the PLME website, it says:

Candidates considered admissible by the College Admission Office are reviewed by the PLME Advisory Selection Board.

Wouldn't this PLME advisory board have some representatives from Alpert?

I was obsessed with getting into this program in high school and knew a couple other kids who applied to PLME at the same time as me. Some of them said they had interviewers that were very unfamiliar or unaware with the program (I believe this might be due to the alum graduating from Brown before the PLME program was established, however). I myself had an alum interviewer that asked about why medicine but didn't really get beyond that. Since local interviews really depend on the supply of volunteer alumni in an area, maybe it's done differently in CA?

 

[mspeedwagon]

Yes, there are some representatives from Alpert, but it is mostly undergrad admissions.

I'm assuming you interviewed a few yrs ago? They are starting to standardize it so that PLME applicants have interviewers familiar with the program after getting feedback from those interviewed. This is relatively new and if you live in a city where there aren't that many Brown alum it's entirely possible you would get stuck with one that knew nothing about PLME.

Not sure where in CA you are, but I interview kids on the Bay Area Peninsula.

 

[schrizto]

Actually I applied the previous cycle (the cycle of 2008-9) from New Jersey, so it wasn't very long ago. The reason I'm led to believe that Brown's alumni interview doesn't have much weight in PLME is because of how ununiform the distribution of interviewers would be (there are going to be more alumni available in highly populated areas, not all the applicants to PLME got interviewers who were experienced with the medical field, etc). And not to offend you or anything, but at other BS/MD programs I interviewed at, the interviewer was a PhD or MD and employed as faculty at the institution. A pre-med interviewer could think he can spot the kind of person that should go into medicine but he is much less experienced.

Since you interview applicants from the Bay Area, I'm not surprised that they would have interviewers specifically for the PLME program there since it's an affluent area with a high volume of college applicants.

 

[Jolt21]

I wish to attend Brown because of its MD program, its offers me everything I want from a medical school, particularly through their Scholarly Concentrations Program, which will allow me to integrate the study of medicine/public health to other disciplines concerning the humanities and arts, along with supplying me with experiential education which is invaluable to a any scholar.

Brown is not unique. I also applied to PLME cause i thought Brown was so great and special...got deferred and later accepted, but the deferment was the best thing to happen to me. It gave me more time to look into other schools and I realized that Alpert was NOT special AT ALL. The theory that most med schools are the same is completely true. Look around. You gotta have an open mind about these things...don't be set on one school.

 

[JJMrK]

Moving to WAMC.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Very true... the biggest concentration of applicants to the PLME program come from the Bay Area. Can't comment much about the way other states work. Getting into Brown can be a different experience depending on what state you apply from. They try their hardest to have all 50 states represented.

Since you interview applicants from the Bay Area, I'm not surprised that they would have interviewers specifically for the PLME program there since it's an affluent area with a high volume of college applicants.

 

[MedHistorian]

Also, I was wondering if i should retake a Calc course? Since one of my grades is a C-. Or is that not even worth doing? My school doesn't permit class retakes if the course grade is a C- or higher.