Frustrated reapplicant

[vsun]

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Ok so I applied to dental school 2 years ago. Got interviewed at LLU and Temple. And never heard back from any of them.

I am planning to apply again this June 2013. I have studied my ass off for the DAT and only got 1 point or more higher in each section. I feel I have reached my threshold of my ability for the DAT and I can't improve anymore.

I'm currently getting my masters in biomedical engineering and will be finished by June 2013. My letters of rec will be stronger this time around with a well-known doctor's recommendation included. And I have been co-author on 3 additional papers since the last time I applied.

I've grown a bit, matured a bit. After my experiences these past 2 years, I feel if I were to get into dentistry, I would like to be involved in research as well. I dont know if I would be content just seeing patients day to day. Hence, what are my chances to get into DDS/PhD?

My undergrad GPA was 3.6. My grad GPA is currently 3.8.
I have coauthored 5 published papers with 2 more in the works.

DAT scores are as follows:
PAT 24
QR 21
RC 23
Bio/GChem/OChem 20/20/20
TS 20
AA 21

I have 100 hours volunteering at a free dental clinic, 30 hours shadowing at a private chain dental clinic.

My interests and hobbies are varied from programming and martial arts to baking and sewing. (Recently been making my girlfriend purses)

I've decided I would be happy with a career where I can be creative and create things. I want to help people (as do most people here!) but in a larger sense. I want to be behind the scenes, creating new protocols, treatments, devices.

Dentistry appeals to me because I can work with my hands and I can help ease pain immediately. It appeals because more than just physically helping the patients, I would also boost their confidence and self-esteem. However, I feel a dentist's tools to be archaic and could be better to benefit the patient.

To be honest, I am a lazy person. But whats good about that is I try to work as efficiently as I can. If I'm tasked with analyzing some data using a repetitive method, I'll try to write a macro or script to automate it, rather than chug through it.

So what do you guys think my chances of getting into DDS/PhD are? Is my DAT not high enough? During the interview I heard they grill you like a thesis defense.

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Another thing, looking at my 2010 and 2013 scores it seems I tested against particularly smart people back in 2010. My OChem score in 2010 was 20 (84.4%). In 2013 it was 20 (79.9%). So a decrease of 5% and the point score still remains the same?

There's even more discrepancies. Look at my RC scores. In 2010 it was 21 (88.9%). In 2013 it was 23 (89.8%). So it seems 1% increase is 2 point increase for RC? Does that make sense?

This point system is so odd.

DAT 2010:


DAT 2013:

 

[missdiana]

Wow. I think you have really good chance this cycle!

I think the reason you didn't get in last time was your low Bio score and average undergrad. GPA.

I think what you have now, you seems like an amazing applicant!
I don't think any of schools will turn down someone like you!
Good Grad GPA and all DAT score is above 20!!!

I am applying this cycle and I am starting to get worry now

 

[iwillbedds]

you will get in, no doubt!! Congratulations on new scores

 

[UCSFx2017]

I think you have a good shot.
It's weird how my 20's in AA and TS were >93 percentile yet your 20 is 85.2 and your 21 is 93.4.

 

[vsun]

I think you have a good shot.
It's weird how my 20's in AA and TS were >93 percentile yet your 20 is 85.2 and your 21 is 93.4.

Indeed it is weird.

Also thanks for the encouragement you guys. Makes me feel less worried.

And when you say I have a good shot, do you mean to the DDS/PhD program? Or do you know if its possible to switch onto that track once you are accepted?

 

[UCSFx2017]

Indeed it is weird.

Also thanks for the encouragement you guys. Makes me feel less worried.

And when you say I have a good shot, do you mean to the DDS/PhD program? Or do you know if its possible to switch onto that track once you are accepted?

I'm not exactly sure how competitive you are for the dual-degree but you have a very good chance of getting into dental school in general. I only know one DDS-PhD student on SDN.
Ask "a2ndragoon89". He's at Michigan. http://mobile.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=251138

I think I read somewhere that at UCSF's DDS-PhD, if you are rejected for their PhD, you're also rejected for the DDS. Double-check on that. Most other places should still consider you for DDS if you don't get into their DDS-PhD track.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

Your GPA, retaken DAT, and current academic situation is very competitive. Congratulations: you should be very proud of an excellent quality of effort and demonstration of capability!

The portions of your post I've quoted below, however, are disconcerting, for a number of reasons.

I hesitate to point them out, though, because I certainly don't want to make you aware of incompatibilities with dentistry so that you might cover up your true self during an interview for dental school (lying to get into d school).

Specifically, my thoughts in red below:

...I want to be behind the scenes, creating new protocols, treatments, devices.
this just smells odd to me. Dentistry is an empirical profession. It is advancing every year and getting better. Its a process. You sound like you are already disgruntled with the manner of practice before you've even started. Worrisome. If I am a dental school faculty speaking with an applicant for dental school, ostensibly an applicant who is earnest in their intent to want to come to dental school to learn how to be a dentist, why would I want to admit an applicant who is already dissatisfied/ disgruntled/ disappointed in what I'll/ we'll be teaching? On top of that why would I be interested in a candidate who sound like they want to reinvent the profession as well as reinvent the wheel? You sound like a revolutionary-creative designer type (biomedical engineer!!) not a scientist interested in helping humanity improve its health care.

I feel a dentist's tools to be archaic and could be better to benefit the patient.
same concern here. "Archaic"😕 The tools are the product of thousands of years of development. If you are going to make a statement (or a thought) such as this, you'd better be prepared with some seriously developed ideas of your own to back up such a claim. Even if you have some legitimate ideas to back up this claim, I don't see how you can efficiently argue such a position unless you carry around a full blown thesis package full of top notch graphics. Even then no one is going to stop everything to listen to you for the many minutes it takes to argue such a case even for 1 tool let alone 'tools'.

To be honest, I am a lazy person.
To be honest, no self respecting, hardworking, honest professionals want to deal with a lazy person. Even the honest ones.

But whats good about that is I try to work as efficiently as I can. If I'm tasked with analyzing some data using a repetitive method, I'll try to write a macro or script to automate it, rather than chug through it.
This is perhaps the most disconcerting statement of all by a wide margin. The practice of dentistry involves pretty much a never ending litany of 'chugging through' repetitive procedures, crafted to specific individual CUSTOM circumstances/ problems. I smell a massive misalignment with your personality and motivations in terms of your long term viability as a dentist. Someone like yourself really ought to go into accounting, actuating, video game design, mechanical engineering (biomedical engineering!!) or something which deals with computers and machinery: not health care which takes care of unique, singular human beings day after day after long day (sometimes 20-25 such human beings per day, too).

So what do you guys think my chances of getting into DDS/PhD are?

If you carefully craft your way into being another person with the motivations and personality of a dentist (empirical, repetitive, extremely personal) I think you'll get in. But, in the long run, you can't stop being you and you'll regret, sooner or later, lying to yourself. Do something where you can professionally serve machines, not humans. Be honest and fair with yourself.

-OR- your just a bad writer/ interviewer and sabotage yourself with toxic statements you truly do not believe and are truly not motivated by in real life

-OR- you are still in the process of discovering your true self and you find out between now and the inevitable interview for next cycle that you truly are interested in learning from an empirical profession as well as dealing with human beings (and not computers/ machines) the rest of your professional life.

 

[UCLAzy]

I think I read somewhere that at UCSF's DDS-PhD, if you are rejected for their PhD, you're also rejected for the DDS. Double-check on that.

this is incorrect (at least for this cycle). source: i'm going this route and applied this cycle

 

[vsun]

Your GPA, retaken DAT, and current academic situation is very competitive. Congratulations: you should be very proud of an excellent quality of effort and demonstration of capability!

The portions of your post I've quoted below, however, are disconcerting, for a number of reasons.

I hesitate to point them out, though, because I certainly don't want to make you aware of incompatibilities with dentistry so that you might cover up your true self during an interview for dental school (lying to get into d school).

Specifically, my thoughts in red below:



If you carefully craft your way into being another person with the motivations and personality of a dentist (empirical, repetitive, extremely personal) I think you'll get in. But, in the long run, you can't stop being you and you'll regret, sooner or later, lying to yourself. Do something where you can professionally serve machines, not humans. Be honest and fair with yourself.

-OR- your just a bad writer/ interviewer and sabotage yourself with toxic statements you truly do not believe and are truly not motivated by in real life

-OR- you are still in the process of discovering your true self and you find out between now and the inevitable interview for next cycle that you truly are interested in learning from an empirical profession as well as dealing with human beings (and not computers/ machines) the rest of your professional life.

Thanks for the comments Bobby Fischer. They bring up a good point.

I'm not looking to do a paradigm shift in the profession, I'm looking to improve it. Does it really sound like that? I know I need to master the basics before I begin to nitpick the problems. But I'm saying my mentality is one that looks for ways of improving things.

For instance in the research lab I work for, we do a surgery on a hamster. When i first started in the lab I sucked at this surgery and wasted many animals. But i kept working at it and got better and better. Now I'm the best at performing that surgery in my lab. And recently I've been testing ways to make the surgery easier, more consistent. Trust me, I know one must "pay their dues" before they can even begin to understand or make improvements.

What i meant about the "archaic" tools was that dentists, for instance, still use actual drills and bits to drill out cavities. Its uncomfortable, causes vibrations, you need local anesthesia. I know nowadays some dentists offer lasers to "drill" teeth which don't have the associated vibration and reduces the need for anesthesia. So that's what I meant about providing more advanced tools to benefit patients.

In addressing the first point of dentistry being an empirical profession, I feel I could handle the day to day, the "chugging" through patients. But maybe the fruitlessness of it would get me down after a few years, and I would feel the need to make a bigger impact. I would wonder, why am i seeing patients coming in with the same problems? how can i stop the problems before they begin? I wouldn't be satisfied just cleaning up after the effects of disease, I would want to stop the problem at the source.

And in part it may be my training as a researcher that influences me to feel this way. Which is why I'm interested in the PhD program as well.

Don't get me wrong. The ability to make someone's pain go away or make someone able to smile without being self conscious is a huge influence of me wanting to go into dentistry. As a child, I had horrible gums that bleed all over my teeth. And my dentist treated and cured it. And it was a huge self-esteem boost to have the ability to smile without having to wonder if there's blood on my teeth. Or to have to close your lips when you smile because you're embarrassed about blood on your teeth. I want to give other people that confidence boost i experienced. And I realize dentistry is like the service industry where you interact personally, where your main goal is to make your customer happy.

But I'm saying, as a dentist wouldn't you wonder about why patients come in with the problems they have? Are cavities from bad diet, bad genes, or bad bacteria in their mouths? And could you do something about it?

I dont think I'm wrong for thinking this way. I genuinely want to help people, but I also look ahead to see if I could help in the bigger sense. I'm reminded of the quote: insanity is doing same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And I imagine the dentist "chugging" away at patients, yet seeing the same patients come back again and again with the same problems.

If dentists were concerned with their patient's oral care, wouldn't EVERY dentist be participating in research on these problems?

Finally I would like to add, I hope to never become a dentist that owns an office in a strip mall. Some of you from California may know what I'm talking about. You know those dinky dental offices located between a chinese take-out and laundromat. That is my biggest fear.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

Thanks for the comments Bobby Fischer. They bring up a good point.

I'm not looking to do a paradigm shift in the profession, I'm looking to improve it. Does it really sound like that? I know I need to master the basics before I begin to nitpick the problems. But I'm saying my mentality is one that looks for ways of improving things.

For instance in the research lab I work for, we do a surgery on a hamster. When i first started in the lab I sucked at this surgery and wasted many animals. But i kept working at it and got better and better. Now I'm the best at performing that surgery in my lab. And recently I've been testing ways to make the surgery easier, more consistent. Trust me, I know one must "pay their dues" before they can even begin to understand or make improvements.

What i meant about the "archaic" tools was that dentists, for instance, still use actual drills and bits to drill out cavities. Its uncomfortable, causes vibrations, you need local anesthesia. I know nowadays some dentists offer lasers to "drill" teeth which don't have the associated vibration and reduces the need for anesthesia. So that's what I meant about providing more advanced tools to benefit patients.

In addressing the first point of dentistry being an empirical profession, I feel I could handle the day to day, the "chugging" through patients. But maybe the fruitlessness of it would get me down after a few years, and I would feel the need to make a bigger impact. I would wonder, why am i seeing patients coming in with the same problems? how can i stop the problems before they begin? I wouldn't be satisfied just cleaning up after the effects of disease, I would want to stop the problem at the source.

And in part it may be my training as a researcher that influences me to feel this way. Which is why I'm interested in the PhD program as well.

Don't get me wrong. The ability to make someone's pain go away or make someone able to smile without being self conscious is a huge influence of me wanting to go into dentistry. As a child, I had horrible gums that bleed all over my teeth. And my dentist treated and cured it. And it was a huge self-esteem boost to have the ability to smile without having to wonder if there's blood on my teeth. Or to have to close your lips when you smile because you're embarrassed about blood on your teeth. I want to give other people that confidence boost i experienced. And I realize dentistry is like the service industry where you interact personally, where your main goal is to make your customer happy.

But I'm saying, as a dentist wouldn't you wonder about why patients come in with the problems they have? Are cavities from bad diet, bad genes, or bad bacteria in their mouths? And could you do something about it?

I dont think I'm wrong for thinking this way. I genuinely want to help people, but I also look ahead to see if I could help in the bigger sense. I'm reminded of the quote: insanity is doing same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And I imagine the dentist "chugging" away at patients, yet seeing the same patients come back again and again with the same problems.

If dentists were concerned with their patient's oral care, wouldn't EVERY dentist be participating in research on these problems?

Finally I would like to add, I hope to never become a dentist that owns an office in a strip mall. Some of you from California may know what I'm talking about. You know those dinky dental offices located between a chinese take-out and laundromat. That is my biggest fear.

Impressive. Excellent counter-points. If I were the adcom committee interviewer and this is the rebuttal you offered to my concerns: you'll be receiving the notice of your acceptance shortly.

(Still, a little too idealistic IMO but I'm going to assume a more grounded approach to your excellent intentions will, like a fine wine, develop with age. 😉)

 

[vsun]

thanks for the replies Bobby Fischer. My girlfriend was like why are you so serious about some guy on the internet. But at least those responses helped ground me and clarify what I felt.

 

[KittySquared]

Your scores are excellent. Be sure to apply very early and you should get in somewhere.

 

[chrispyy]

With that gpa and dat scores you're guarantee a spot in D school. Apply early and work on your EC/volunteering in the mean time to buff up your app. Looks good

 

[babowc]

It looks to me like you have a solid application...
DAT scores are graded in a scale, so the percentages just come from how you did versus your peers.

Good luck!