Future of vet

[hizi]

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Hi everyone,

I would like to ask if it's true what I hear about oversaturation in the vet field. I did some research on google but even though there are some articles saying there is a shortage, there are others saying the field is oversaturated already.

Based on your experience, what's the reality of the profession? Do you think oversaturation is a problem now or in the future?

It would suck to go to vet school to find out is oversaturated like pharmacy...

 

[CalliopeDVM]

As you didn't say where you're at, I'm going to assume you're talking about the US.

If by "oversaturation" you mean too many vets for the available jobs, I'd say that's a version of the truth.......the reality is there's an oversaturation in some areas, and a relative 'dilution' in other areas. In some locations jobs are scarce and relative salaries are low, and in others there are jobs left unfilled even with 6-figure salary offers.

 

[WildZoo]

On average it doesn't seem to be as bad as it was several years ago. As far as I know, few people are having any issue finding a job when they graduate. That may be because corporate practices are basically always hiring. But that also may change. Veterinary care tends to be one of those things that people spend less on when the economy is in a bad spot.

 

[Blueangel7]

It depends on what area you want to practice as well. General practice seems to be over saturated where as emergency medicine or food animal is always in need of more vets. It really depends on what type of medicine you want to practice and where you want to practice.

 

[hizi]

As you didn't say where you're at, I'm going to assume you're talking about the US.

If by "oversaturation" you mean too many vets for the available jobs, I'd say that's a version of the truth.......the reality is there's an oversaturation in some areas, and a relative 'dilution' in other areas. In some locations jobs are scarce and relative salaries are low, and in others there are jobs left unfilled even with 6-figure salary offers.

Yes sir, the U.S. I live in Florida so I would like to stay here but if that is not possible I would not have any issues going out of state.

 

[Blueangel7]

This biggest thing I have been told through potential employers and from lunch-n-learns (actually just talked about this today) about this community is to be flexible. If you are dead set on working 3 days a week from 9-4 and having every weekend and holiday off in Tampa, FL, then you will have a hard time finding anything. If you are open to moving, working weekends, later shifts, or working some holidays (i.e. Memorial Day) then you will find work just about anywhere. You have to be flexible until you own your own practice or whatnot, then you can pick and choose when you work and don't work.

 

[hizi]

Thank you all for your responses.

I also want to ask this, how's the risk of being sued for malpractice? is it as high as M.Ds and dentists?

 

[WildZoo]

Thank you all for your responses.

I also want to ask this, how's the risk of being sued for malpractice? is it as high as M.Ds and dentists?

From what I understand it is not as high. Still exists though. We have professional liability insurance for that reason.

 

[Minnerbelle]

There is currently an associate’s deficit for gps and ERs (even more so for many specialties) in many parts of the country. It’s an associate’s market, and salaries are high as many employers are fighting over them. But things can change quickly based on the economy. 2009 - 2014 was some really tough times. I remember when I wanted desperately out of my first job at the end of 2014 (which I was lucky to get at all), there were exactly 3 job postings in my entire well populated state... where one of those ads was for the hospital I wanted to get out of... I would imagine we would be right back into that state as soon as we hit another financial crisis.

http://www.dvm360.com/associate-shortage-dvm360-spotlight-series

Malpractice insurance is super cheap in vet med because the claims are relatively cheap compared to human medicine. Because of that, there are few ambulance chaser lawyers encouraging owners to sue. Not that many cases actually go to litigation... and for many owners the cost to litigate isn’t worth what they will likely be compensated. I have good coverage and I’m pretty sure it’s under $400 per year or something like that.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

If you are in an area with a diverse and stable/growing population there seems to be growth. However, those areas can only handle so many veterinarians and clinics and that can definitely make competition harder. Rural areas often cannot offer comparable salaries and working conditions and increasing graduates for "rural" practice does not work in the end as the incentives to stay long term are not there. So the next recession will maybe see more graduates in dire straits as pet spending is cut back. Increasing the numbers of graduates has not been proven to work as much as making the rewards better. Australia built 3 new veterinary schools in the past twenty years (against advice of manpower study in 2004) and now has a shortage of veterinarians from veterinarians leaving due to poor treatment from public and low pay relative to other jobs.

Australian vets leaving the profession ‘in droves’ over stress and poor pay

Most practices find it hard to fill vacancies and many are struggling to turn a profit, survey finds

www.theguardian.com

 

[hizi]

If you are in an area with a diverse and stable/growing population there seems to be growth. However, those areas can only handle so many veterinarians and clinics and that can definitely make competition harder. Rural areas often cannot offer comparable salaries and working conditions and increasing graduates for "rural" practice does not work in the end as the incentives to stay long term are not there. So the next recession will maybe see more graduates in dire straits as pet spending is cut back. Increasing the numbers of graduates has not been proven to work as much as making the rewards better. Australia built 3 new veterinary schools in the past twenty years (against advice of manpower study in 2004) and now has a shortage of veterinarians from veterinarians leaving due to poor treatment from public and low pay relative to other jobs.

Australian vets leaving the profession ‘in droves’ over stress and poor pay

Most practices find it hard to fill vacancies and many are struggling to turn a profit, survey finds

www.theguardian.com

According to the government, "Employment of veterinarians is projected to grow 19 percent from 2016 to 2026, much faster than the average for all occupations. Overall job prospects are expected to be very good." Veterinarians : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

I hope what's happening in Australia does not happen here. I wonder what the AVMA is doing to protect the profession.

 

[Minnerbelle]

According to the government, "Employment of veterinarians is projected to grow 19 percent from 2016 to 2026, much faster than the average for all occupations. Overall job prospects are expected to be very good." Veterinarians : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

I hope what's happening in Australia does not happen here. I wonder what the AVMA is doing to protect the profession.

I never go by the BLS reports because they were super cheery even during the recession when the job market sucked balls.

 

[Bamboo21]

Workforce Needs in Veterinary Medicine | The National Academies Press
A study done, a few years old, but sheds some interesting light on workforce needs in vet med. The vet who sent it to me did so with a really bleak outlook on the career; however I read it and considered things to be more or less normal. Although this is coming from someone who wanted to go into law, which is way more saturated 🙂 needless to say he did not convince me to skip out on vet school!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It depends on what area you want to practice as well. General practice seems to be over saturated where as emergency medicine or food animal is always in need of more vets. It really depends on what type of medicine you want to practice and where you want to practice.

Problem with this is, the places with the biggest need for food animal vets are in rural areas.

I.e. sparsely populated, low income areas which make practicing there financial suicide (no pun intended) for a someone with loans like we have. 🙁 It's an unfortunate catch-22

General practice is not oversaturated. At least, not like it was 10 years ago when people were graduating with one, maybe two job offers max. I graduated in 2010 and saw firsthand how many GP colleagues struggled to find employment and ended up having to take whatever they were offered.

Most people I know nowadays have no issues finding GP jobs as long as they are flexible. Like Minner said, it's as associate's market.

 

[DVMDream]

Most people I know nowadays have no issues finding GP jobs as long as they are flexible. Like Minner said, it's as associate's market.

Currently you barely need to be flexible. You'll find GP work, heck if you know how to negotiate you can find GP work for 4 days a well, possibly on an 8-5 schedule even but 8-6 is more realistic. Most large or larger cities are struggling to find full time DVMs so they're willing to give quite a bit, but you have to ask and be realistic about what you're asking for.

You learn with time more and more of what you really like/want vs what you don't care as much about.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Currently you barely need to be flexible. You'll find GP work, heck if you know how to negotiate you can find GP work for 4 days a well, possibly on an 8-5 schedule even but 8-6 is more realistic. Most large or larger cities are struggling to find full time DVMs so they're willing to give quite a bit, but you have to ask and be realistic about what you're asking for.

You learn with time more and more of what you really like/want vs what you don't care as much about.

Yeah for reals. We’re short doctors in my practice, and honestly I don’t care if a new hire is a super star... just any warm body who isn’t going to be committing malpractice and isn’t pissing off clients left and right is fine. As long as they don’t **** up my cases and don’t leave me their disasters (this is the hard part). If anyone wants to consider working here and has whatever scheduling needs, we’re likely to meet it. A meh doctor is better than no doctor. It’s really weird saying that as a snob who really values high quality medicine and has always worked until now at multidoctor hospitals full of very good clinicians. I’ve given up on the idea... I’m tired. As tired as I am of handling cases that are FUBAR’d by my bosses, I’m tired of going at it myself.

 

[Trilt]

Yeah for reals. We’re short doctors in my practice, and honestly I don’t care if a new hire is a super star... just any warm body who isn’t going to be committing malpractice and isn’t pissing off clients left and right is fine. As long as they don’t **** up my cases and don’t leave me their disasters (this is the hard part). If anyone wants to consider working here and has whatever scheduling needs, we’re likely to meet it. A meh doctor is better than no doctor. It’s really weird saying that as a snob who really values high quality medicine and has always worked until now at multidoctor hospitals full of very good clinicians. I’ve given up on the idea... I’m tired. As tired as I am of handling cases that are FUBAR’d by my bosses, I’m tired of going at it myself.

I'm working relief for banfield occasionally and it makes me giggle how completely nonchalant they were about ANYTHING about me as a doctor. Basically: "You have a DVM? Come pick up shifts! Please? PLEASE??"

 

[WildZoo]

I'm working relief for banfield occasionally and it makes me giggle how completely nonchalant they were about ANYTHING about me as a doctor. Basically: "You have a DVM? Come pick up shifts! Please? PLEASE??"

A couple of my classmates who I would not trust within 500ft of my animals signed contracts with Banfield like two months into clinics

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah for reals. We’re short doctors in my practice, and honestly I don’t care if a new hire is a super star... just any warm body who isn’t going to be committing malpractice and isn’t pissing off clients left and right is fine. As long as they don’t **** up my cases and don’t leave me their disasters (this is the hard part). If anyone wants to consider working here and has whatever scheduling needs, we’re likely to meet it. A meh doctor is better than no doctor. It’s really weird saying that as a snob who really values high quality medicine and has always worked until now at multidoctor hospitals full of very good clinicians. I’ve given up on the idea... I’m tired. As tired as I am of handling cases that are FUBAR’d by my bosses, I’m tired of going at it myself.

Right? As relief, I am being placed into more and more clinics that are seriously functioning off all relief vets. It is crazy. I also hate picking up the pieces from some of them. Most a great, but some really need to pick up a Plumb's or read some literature based on what I have seen from them.

I am mostly used to going at it alone at this point. Have been mostly alone since about 5 months post graduation and I am rarely with another vet as a relief vet. I like being alone most of the time, but occasionally wish I had someone to quickly bounce questions off of.


Oh well, won't have to worry too much longer.. heading off to something non-GP in two weeks.....

 

[Minnerbelle]

Right? As relief, I am being placed into more and more clinics that are seriously functioning off all relief vets. It is crazy. I also hate picking up the pieces from some of them. Most a great, but some really need to pick up a Plumb's or read some literature based on what I have seen from them.

I am mostly used to going at it alone at this point. Have been mostly alone since about 5 months post graduation and I am rarely with another vet as a relief vet. I like being alone most of the time, but occasionally wish I had someone to quickly bounce questions off of.


Oh well, won't have to worry too much longer.. heading off to something non-GP in two weeks.....

I don’t mind being the only doctor on. It’s that I’m the only doctor that is at this practice consistently more than 1 day per week, which means that the vast majority of all patient and staff related things fall on me regardless of whether I have had anything to do with it or not. Honestly, I regret it the majority of times when I ask for input from another clinician at this practice, so I’m totally cool not having another person here. It’s hard to be gracious and secretly ignore everything they say because in my head I’m like “omg wtf is wrong with you? That is a terrible idea.” I have enough outside support and specialist friends to lean on if I really need help.

What kind of venture are you headed off to?

 

[DVMDream]

I don’t mind being the only doctor on. It’s that I’m the only doctor that is at this practice consistently more than 1 day per week, which means that the vast majority of all patient and staff related things fall on me regardless of whether I have had anything to do with it or not. Honestly, I regret it the majority of times when I ask for input from another clinician at this practice, so I’m totally cool not having another person here. It’s hard to be gracious and secretly ignore everything they say because in my head I’m like “omg wtf is wrong with you? That is a terrible idea.” I have enough outside support and specialist friends to lean on if I really need help.

What kind of venture are you headed off to?

I get it. My second job was as the only full time vet at the clinic. Everything was on me. Everything from all the relief vets, the part time vet, etc, etc. It is overwhelming, especially when you have a different approach that you're thinking about but don't want to stop on the other vets' toes.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I get it. My second job was as the only full time vet at the clinic. Everything was on me. Everything from all the relief vets, the part time vet, etc, etc. It is overwhelming, especially when you have a different approach that you're thinking about but don't want to stop on the other vets' toes.

Yup this. Like when another clinician has told an owner of an ADR dog with creat of 1.7 and upc of 2 (just UA, no urine culture, no imaging) is dying of kidney disease... with all PE findings that just say “WNL” and I’m tasked to call with 4dx result that is anaplasma positive... and I get yelled at by client when I tell them we can start doxy and O to call us if P is not much better within 3 days because the other doctor told her the dog was dying quickly of kidney disease so there is no way the dog was getting better. I was so confused, so offered to take a look at dog if she was doing that poorly. O of course does not want to see me because I’m too stupid to realize from her record that she is dying of kidney failure...

Well the dog didn’t get better, and came in dying 2 days later because she was in tamponade... O pissed at me of course. Like for ffs if you think the dog is dying for some reason, write it in the medical record or let me know! Or if you even think that an animal is dying of X disease and have told the owner that, write it in the records. Like if every PE notes is WNL, and it just says “call with results please,” it ****ing sucks especially when nothing else is documented. I end up doing so many no charge rechecks because I feel blinded and can’t make any calls without seeing the patient myself. And then I find a giant abdominal or rectal mass or weird auscultation or giant lymph nodes... and then even if the client is happy with me, they’re always still pissed off and I have to deal with that.

 

[DVMDream]

Yup this. Like when another clinician has told an owner of an ADR dog with creat of 1.7 and upc of 2 (just UA, no urine culture, no imaging) is dying of kidney disease... with all PE findings that just say “WNL” and I’m tasked to call with 4dx result that is anaplasma positive... and I get yelled at by client when I tell them we can start doxy and O to call us if P is not much better within 3 days because the other doctor told her the dog was dying quickly of kidney disease so there is no way the dog was getting better. I was so confused, so offered to take a look at dog if she was doing that poorly. O of course does not want to see me because I’m too stupid to realize from her record that she is dying of kidney failure...

Well the dog didn’t get better, and came in dying 2 days later because she was in tamponade... O pissed at me of course. Like for ffs if you think the dog is dying for some reason, write it in the medical record or let me know! Or if you even think that an animal is dying of X disease and have told the owner that, write it in the records. Like if every PE notes is WNL, and it just says “call with results please,” it ****ing sucks especially when nothing else is documented. I end up doing so many no charge rechecks because I feel blinded and can’t make any calls without seeing the patient myself. And then I find a giant abdominal or rectal mass or weird auscultation or giant lymph nodes... and then even if the client is happy with me, they’re always still pissed off and I have to deal with that.

I hate "wnl" on notes. I will 98% of the time type something even if that parameter is normal.. "heart auscultates normally with no murmurs or arrhythmias. Pet has strong, synchronous pulses."

Every part gets a description of "normal". The only time I'm doing "wnl" is if I've been slammed and I'm pushed for time.. then only the abnormals get descriptions.