Gavin was not kidding

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I was talking today to a representative at the TMDSAS (Texas Medical and Dental Schools Application Service) and they gave me a little information on the applicant pool of the entering class of 2004.

It seems that based on this pool and based on reliable statistics in the past, this years entering class based in Texas will have an average academic average of 20 and a PAT of 18. Another thing I noted was the average GPA might be as high as 3.5!, breaking the 3.3-3.4 mark that was achieved by students in years past.

This is something that people should keep in mind because it seems that year after year the pool continues becoming more competitive.
 
wowzers!

I wonder if thats just Texas or if that trend holds true for the whole application pool. That would mean that my application is exactly average. 🙁
 
Shawn, imagine in 5-6 years. The damn pool might avg a 22AA and a 3.7-8 GPA.
 
http://www.utsystem.edu/tmdsas/stats.htm

Here are the Texas stats. Actually the average GPA last year for dental schools was a 3.66 😱

Keep in mind that the avg. GPA for med school was only 1/100ths point higher at 3.67

That should put things in perspective for you.
 
Good lord 3.66! Thanks critter, I obviously bypassed those statistics while rummaging around the tmdsas website. I am so glad I have a 3.85 (though I was more comfortable if the average GPA was something like 3.4🙁) Yeah, those statistics are really scary for many in texas. I have messaged some friends over AIM and they are in awe!:wow:

I am still shocked by the disparity of one year! How can it go froma 3.47 to a 3.66 in one year!!!!
 
Well, I'm really not too surprised, as we have a very top notch school in Texas that is very well know nationally: UTSA. I have been told that San Antonio is HIGHLY, HIGHLY competitve and they only take the cream of the crop. So, I am assuming UTSA dental school is what brings those #'s up so high. I doubt this is the average for the other two schools in Texas, but I could be wrong. I am assuming Baylor and UT Houston are more around the lines of 3.4-3.5, but don't quote me on that 😉
 
I dont know about other schools, but Tufts' entering GPA has been going higher and higher with every passing year.
 
Rezdawg = Screwed

Who wants to go to Texas School of Massage Therapy with me?

This trend in competitiveness for schools is destroying my future.
 
This waiting game is driving me nuts, just send me aletter already...SHEESH!!!!
 
Dam!😡
That means that people who have GPA under 3.0 like me are facing lottery like odds.

Hmmm... I wonder if this is just temporary fad. Sounds odd that all the sudden(okay within the last few years) people got interested in dentistry.
I fail to see how this is going to be a permanent trend(especially with the economy). How does a school expect to maintain such a high average??
 
My guess, and this is just a guess, is that when managed care really hits dentistry, IF it does, you'll see a decrease in applications and entering class stats. So i'm not going to get stressed out, I really want to be a dentist, not because of the money, not because of the economy, i like it....it'll work out eventually. Take all of this in stride.
 
It's not that the applicant pool is high, it's just the grades that seem to be climbing. This trend is not seen in medical school because med school has seen a steady trend in grades over the past 3-4 years.
 
I was saying that lately i've seen a lot of would-be premeds switching to dentistry. If salaries go down, and managed care takes over (ie: optometry), i have a feeling grades will go down, and your premed buddies will go back to med school where pay has been rather steady.
 
Originally posted by blankguy
Dam!😡
That means that people who have GPA under 3.0 like me are facing lottery like odds.

Hmmm... I wonder if this is just temporary fad. Sounds odd that all the sudden(okay within the last few years) people got interested in dentistry.
I fail to see how this is going to be a permanent trend(especially with the economy). How does a school expect to maintain such a high average??
Click to expand...

OK, calm down fellas..... REMEMBER, all of the dental schools in Texas are public schools AND Texas medical/dental schools are notorious for there VERY affordable tuition costs. Therefore, it is to be expected there would be more competition within a scenerio like this. However, their are numerous private schools that will be competitve, but not quite as competitve as say Texas and California. Keep this in mind, your state school will always be competitive, naturally, because of the significant cost savings of tuition.
 
Also the competitive admissions is not isolated to dental schools. Due to poor economy the applications for other graduate and professional schools are up, a little of this ought to be attributed to this.
 
Blankguy,

I agree. I think every senior in college right now who isn't sure what they are going to do with the next three years of their life is preparing for the lsat. Not downgrading law school in any form, but just what' i've seen.
 
Originally posted by blankguy
Also the competitive admissions is not isolated to dental schools. Due to poor economy the applications for other graduate and professional schools are up, a little of this ought to be attributed to this.
Click to expand...

Very true,

A 160 LSAT score wasnt very competitive this year.
 
UCSF entering stat this year: 3.5 GPA, AA: 21, PAT: 19

DAT score is the same, but GPA is increasing from 3.4 to 3.5

I believe that's national trend

If you look at the SDN stat's thread, you will see this year have DAT scores in 28, 29, 30. Those numbers did not exist 2 yrs ago.
 
Originally posted by Zurich5
My guess, and this is just a guess, is that when managed care really hits dentistry, IF it does, you'll see a decrease in applications and entering class stats.
Click to expand...


It will never hit dentistry to the degree it has hit medicine.

Medicine set a great example for us dentists. We are now acutely aware of the ramifications of putting our stock in managed care. Er, damaged care.
 
Gavin,

I agree, could you elaborate a little more as to what you're trying to get at. I think I have a good grasp on how managed care will shape practices, and I?ve seen some physicians struggle with it. I feel like a large portion of being a successful dentist is concentrated marketing, and I?m curious as to how one does this with the stigma of managed care.
 
Yeah, Texas' stats are always pretty high, but remember, the avg is 3.5...so when the 4.0 student gets in they also let in a 3.0 student, which averages it out. Remember, alot more than good grades is required to get into dental school. If you have a 4.0, but your a friggin jerk off with a horrible personality, no community service, etc. the interviewers will see past the inflated grades and give you the ax.
 
I personally think community service is overrated. I have tons of service but I know peeps with bad attitudes that have gotten into dental school with a 4.0 and a 22 DAT score. Community service is something everyone can do and typically does do, so I think they look past that.
 
Originally posted by RaiderNation
Remember, alot more than good grades is required to get into dental school. If you have a 4.0, but your a friggin jerk off with a horrible personality, no community service, etc. the interviewers will see past the inflated grades and give you the ax.
Click to expand...

I really WANT to agree with this statement, but I've been on the other side of the interview table and can't.

You guys probably don't realize that ALL the applicants give the SAME answers to interview questions. So much so that they are sometimes word for word.

At that point the only major distinguisher is the GPA and DAT scores.
 
what is your role (student) at Arizona's interview ? I know they let 1 student participates at each interview.
 
Because this is our first year doing it, our role isn't huge. We basically comment on how we perceived the applicant to be, and whether or not we think they are a good applicant.
 
Hi Gavin. Do you have any good suggestion about this trend?
As you know, in bio classes, getting As is not easy especially some professors only grant certain amount of A s.
All pre-med, pre-dental, and pre-pharmarcy students wnat to get A s, and that is mostly the bio classes are composed of.

So, does it mean the only key to help not impressive GPA is to get as high DAT score as possible, like >25 in the following years?

I really hope it can stand as normal as before, but it seems not possible.....
 
i'm sorry to say this, but a lot of dental students don't come from very competitive schools compared to med schools. of course, it's easier to have a higher gpa if most students have graduated from state schools or second to third tier undergraduate programs.

you can't compare med school vs. dental school gpa's.

btw, i'm a d1.

let the flaming begin!
 
Originally posted by realysa

you can't compare med school vs. dental school gpa's.
Click to expand...

Excuse me. I would like to flame you, but I cant do it because your statement doesnt make sense.

What are you talking about? What does the above statement even mean? This thread is concearning the raising GPA's/DAT of predent students (undergraduate level).

How are you comparing med school vs dental school GPAs? Are you saying that all dental students come from inferior undergrad programs?
 
I went to a state funded public university. My GPA was comparable, if not higher, than most of my buddies who got into med school. I have friends at Southwestern, Wash U, Harvard, Tech, etc, etc.

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong. If your school aptly prepares you for the MCAT or DAT, the adcoms could really care less.

I'm a firm believer that one can get a GREAT education whereever they choose to go, and yes, even if they go to a *gasp* state school 😱

I made the most of my education by learning as much as I possibly could while in school. And I thought my school was pretty darn competitive. Even though it is a state school, it has a great reputation as being very rigorous academically
 
Shawn, Take a deeeeep breath my friend. you are too young for a heart attack.

To everyone else:
I, too, went to a competitive state school. in our intro to bio/chem/physics... etc we had so many pre-meds that would drive you crazy. imagine a huge lec hall will 300+ people in it and 75%+ being pre-meds. the competition was so tight that they weeded each other out!!! being an average student, i never bothered to study crazy like they did and consequently, my GPA suffered.

if i could go through my years of undergrad again, i would take all those "weed out" intro cources at an EASY and small college and mainain a 3.8 GPA with less effort than my current 3.0.

Comet
 
Originally posted by realysa
it's easier to have a higher gpa if most students have graduated from state schools or second to third tier undergraduate programs.
Click to expand...

I don't know how true that would be.. If anything, lots of publically-funded institutions do have very demanding science curriculums precisely because they want to prove their courses are just as rigorous as that of an Ivy League university to shed the perception that they are "inferior" schools.

While I was an undergrad at Columbia University, I had a few pre-dent and pre-med classmates who transferred in from CUNY (City University of New York) and SUNY (State University of New York) schools and had to repeat some science courses, and they tell me they had a harder time with courses like GenChem and Physics at those public institutions than at Columbia.

For example, one of them went to Brooklyn College (a CUNY school), where their lab courses for chem, ochem, and physics are yearlong weekly affairs while at Columbia it was a one-semester thing. Those science courses at CUNY also had mandatory recitation sessions whereas Columbia did not have that.

I doubt I would have done any better than the 3.0 GPA I got at Columbia if I had gone to one of those schools.
 
Originally posted by realysa
i'm sorry to say this, but a lot of dental students don't come from very competitive schools compared to med schools. of course, it's easier to have a higher gpa if most students have graduated from state schools or second to third tier undergraduate programs.

you can't compare med school vs. dental school gpa's.

btw, i'm a d1.

let the flaming begin!
Click to expand...

Undergraduate schools are like individuals; they have have their own personality. Brown and Stanford is known for being ridiculously easy. They are hard to get into but once you are in, the grade inflation is pretty high at those schools.

On the other hand, I know third tier colleges whose pre-med program is very difficult. The school's reputation doesn't matter. The professors who work there determine how difficult the class is. One professor can make O-chem easy while another one can make it very difficult. So luck plays a lot into what type of professors you get. I would do my research on any school before I attended there. Some schools have a really bad reputation for being cutthroat with their pre-med program. I would stay away from those programs. You don't learn any more than another class. You just have to deal with insane competition.

I agree with Comet, if I could do it all over again, I would do my Physics, O-chem, Gen chem and Biology at a community college and get straight A's. I would then take some upper level biology classes at the 4 year schools. Upper level bio classes are easier because they aren't weed out courses since most of them were weeded out in general bio with 300 students in them. Finally, I would major in the easiest field possible like sociology or something the athletes major in like recreation studies and pull A's in those classes.
 
shawnone,

yep, that's what i'm sayin.

we do generally come from weaker undergrad programs. it's just a fact.
 
Originally posted by realysa
shawnone,

yep, that's what i'm sayin.

we do generally come from weaker undergrad programs. it's just a fact.
Click to expand...

What are you saying? We all come from the SAME undergrad programs.

Use some logic! There aren't undergraduate schools specifically dedicated to "premed", and there aren't undergrad schools dedicated to "predent". Therefore, the programs that are open to each respective pre-professional student are the same!

XXX school may be weaker than YYY school, but XXX school still sends students to both medical and dental school!
 
Well i went to Harvard for undergrad and spent two years at oxford, so i think i'm the authority on this.

Naw just kidding, i thought i'd take the chance to remind everyone to settle down and enjoy this medium, don't take anything personally....
 
what about all the people who go to college pre-med or pre-something else and then decide to pursue dentistry. Do they immediately transfer to a lower tier college?
 
This entire thread is REALLY stupid. Let's hear it for the pre-dent forum degenerating another step toward becoming a clone of the pre-allo board.
 
the reason i posted my remarks was b/c someone was implying that the caliber of dental students was closely approaching that of med students. obviously, not true.

those current dental students that went to top tier ungrad in general have lower gpa's than they're undergrad classmates currently in med school.

my point is that gpa's are going up b/c dental school has higher proportion of third and fourth tier private ungrad grads and state school grads than med schools.

it's easier getting a high gpa at those institutions. i did when i took some classes over the summer at my state's flagship campus (straight a's in organic chem) at my school i was a b/b- student. in reality, sort of a joke. for those who graduated from state schools and low tier schools, have you taken any classes at a top tier school? i doubt it. so, you have no basis on which to argue against what i've said.

look around your dental school and you'll see plenty of ...state university, ....polytechnic state....., ....mary sacred virgin college...., a&m uni...., college of the grand mountains....city univ..., and those type of college grads with high gpas, while top tier grads have lower gpa's.

so, ask yourself. can we really compare ourselves to med schoolers? i say no.

i'm proud of being a dentist and all that implies, as a matter of fact my father is one.

let's not try to justify our credentials my comparing our gpa's and schools b/c in the end we'll lose.

i give props to my med school friends b/c they've earned it. they are the cream of the crop.

we dental school students are great in many other ways.

to those who agree with me, chime in and back me up.
 
the reason i posted my remarks was b/c someone was implying that the caliber of dental students was closely approaching that of med students. obviously, not true.

those current dental students that went to top tier ungrad in general have lower gpa's than they're undergrad classmates currently in med school.

my point is that gpa's are going up b/c dental school has higher proportion of third and fourth tier private ungrad grads and state school grads than med schools.

it's easier getting a high gpa at those institutions. i did when i took some classes over the summer at my state's flagship campus (straight a's in organic chem) at my school i was a b/b- student. in reality, sort of a joke. for those who graduated from state schools and low tier schools, have you taken any classes at a top tier school? i doubt it. so, you have no basis on which to argue against what i've said.

look around your dental school and you'll see plenty of ...state university, ....polytechnic state....., ....mary sacred virgin college...., a&m uni...., college of the grand mountains....city univ..., and those type of college grads with high gpas, while top tier grads have lower gpa's.

so, ask yourself. can we really compare ourselves to med schoolers? i say no.

i'm proud of being a dentist and all that implies, as a matter of fact my father is one.

let's not try to justify our credentials my comparing our gpa's and schools b/c in the end we'll lose.

i give props to my med school friends b/c they've earned it. they are the cream of the crop.

we dental school students are great in many other ways.

to those who agree with me, chime in and back me up.
 
Well for your information realsya, I come from a top tier school and graduated with a 3.7 in chemistry in 3 years. I performed much better in school than most of my pre-med counterparts who got into med school. I chose dental school b/c I want to have a life outside of my job so that I can pursue other interests. Just remember, people are remembered by what they do with their lives, not what they do with their jobs.
 
Originally posted by realysa


my point is that gpa's are going up b/c dental school has higher proportion of third and fourth tier private ungrad grads and state school grads than med schools.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I disagree.

GPAs are going up for two reasons: 1) students who were planning on going to medical school are switching over in droves and now applying to dental schools instead. 2) applicants who have always wanted to go to dental school are recognizing point #1, and are recognizing the upward GPA trend that goes with it, and as such are increasing their own GPAs to remain competitive.

It's got nothing to do with 3rd and 4th tier schools. Like I said before, the same schools that produce matriculants to medical schools are the same schools that are most successful at producing matriculants to dental schools.
 
Originally posted by realysa
it's easier getting a high gpa at those institutions. i did when i took some classes over the summer at my state's flagship campus (straight a's in organic chem) at my school i was a b/b- student.
Click to expand...

If that's what you are basing your argument on, then your analysis is flawed.

I did my undergrad at Columbia University (we can all agree that's a "top tier" school), and I stayed during one summer and took Differential Equations (a 2nd-year Calculus course which we can all agree isn't some flimsy throw-away "easy-A" course). I got an A in that course.

If I had taken that course during the regular semesters, I would not have done as well. Why? Because during summer session, even though the pace is increased, you are usually taking just one or two courses and you can REALLY focus and concentrate without having to juggle your time among 6 different courses.

I suspect that's how you or anyone for that matter are able to get an A in orgo over the summer, no matter which school they did the summer session at, be it Hah-vahd or Podunk State U.

Making a judgment about a state school and its students based on just one summer course you took is kind of like judging a book by its Cliff Notes cover, no? 😀
 
look obviously there are exceptions to every rule.

i'm talking about the average dental school population. sure, top-tier grads with high gpa's exist, just like low tier grads are at med schools.

you must see that point. wasn't that the point of every class we took as undergrads.

averages of populations tell the truth not the individual!

as for the summer school issue, i was trying to sneak that past people. ubtom, of course you're right about summer school, but everyone knows that summer school at your local state university is the easiest way to get your gpa up.
 
You're making some mighty big assumptions, champ. I want to see the statistics backing up your claims about the schools turning out dent students vs. those turning out meds. Otherwise, neither I nor anybody else with two cofunctional brain cells is interested in what you think "everybody knows." This is the same insecurity-driven dentistry bashing as always; it's just wearing different clothes.
 
I was just wondering, do dental schools understand what schools are easier? and which harder? I know the whole tier system thing is really controversial, but do they take into consideration a lower GPA at a higher tiered school? Or would they rather have higher GPA in general?
 
talk about insecure, sport.

who's the one saying we're as good as the med students.

pas moi.

i'm just being realistic. i think we're the same or better than med students in non-academic ways.

stats don't lie, johnny boy.
 
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