Geographical separation from sig other...

[alienwares]

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Hello all,

I have been considering pursuing a post-bacc and trying to enter medical school for a while now. However, I am no longer a single college student, and I recently got married to someone who is very special to me. However, she is pursuing a PhD and is aiming for a tenure-track position eventually... hence, my dilemma.

Basically, I want to determine if I can go to med school and do my residency while still being near my spouse. I realize that it is very difficult to even get into one school, let alone one in a specific geographical area, but we are fortunate enough to be located in Texas, a state blessed with many (cheap-ish!) schools and I think it may be possible to attend somewhere nearby if I pull super grades finishing my pre-reqs (undergrad GPA was a 3.8, but was a 4.0 for the last 3 semesters or so).

However, while I am in med school my spouse will finish her PhD and look for university jobs, and I am concerned that I may not be able to land a residency near wherever she ends up finding a job. Can someone please explain in brief how residency matching works, exactly? Is it reasonably possible to be able to get some residency, if not a super-difficult one like dermatology, within a certain geographical region? Or is it too much of a crapshoot?

Apologies for the wishy-washiness. I want to return to school and attend medical school, but not before I have a good idea whether it may involve splitting with my spouse for several years. I understand that residency can be rough on relationships as is, and I'd like to know what the risks are before I begin. Thank you.

(Alternately, stories of how you managed a temporary split for med school are also welcome. The prospect frightens.)

 

[sgtbrushes]

Med school admission can be particularly difficult if shooting for one specific area. Residency is a little different. There are a lot of specialties in a lot of places; some specialties are more competitive, as you said. Sometimes, residencies are easier to match at where you went to med school - the PD (Program Director) may know you, the residents and attendings may know you, etc. But it is not a guarantee. The odds that you will get into both a med school and residency within 10 miles of your SO is... difficult.

Not to be a negative nancy, but what happens if you don't get into med school near your SO? You will have to not go to med school, or have a long-distance marriage… which is just waiting for epic fail. Even scarier, if you do get to med school close to your SO, what happens if you don't match close to them? If you only rank programs close to your SO and don't match, you could scramble into God knows where in the country.

 

[filisbug]

Med school admission can be particularly difficult if shooting for one specific area. Residency is a little different. There are a lot of specialties in a lot of places; some specialties are more competitive, as you said. Sometimes, residencies are easier to match at where you went to med school - the PD (Program Director) may know you, the residents and attendings may know you, etc. But it is not a guarantee. The odds that you will get into both a med school and residency within 10 miles of your SO is... difficult.

Not to be a negative nancy, but what happens if you don't get into med school near your SO? You will have to not go to med school, or have a long-distance marriage… which is just waiting for epic fail. Even scarier, if you do get to med school close to your SO, what happens if you don't match close to them? If you only rank programs close to your SO and don't match, you could scramble into God knows where in the country.

When will your wife finish her PhD? One thing you could think about is waiting until she's on the market to apply to medical schools, and then having her try to "sell" you to whatever school wants to hire her. Because PhDs often have to relocate for a job, it is common to ask the hiring program to help a spouse get a job or get into a graduate program. I've seen this happen with lots of different programs, but not med school specifically... I don't how much pull her hiring department would have at the med school... I guess it would depend on how much they want her.

 

[dotdash]

Academic jobs are few and far between these days (in some fields, there are virtually no academic jobs), so she is the more likely one to have to move wherever she can find a job. You will a bit more control over your residency location.

What is her field? You could be through medical school and out the other end before she finishes an English lit dissertation. 🙂 In a science field, she could do a bunch of post-docs after graduating to put off the decision point. But at some point (unless the academic job market changes substantially), she is going to have to take whatever job she can get.

 

[alienwares]

First off, thank you all for your responses thus far. They are all much appreciated. Given that some of you have raised excellent questions, I will try to run my possible plans by you. They are not set in stone--this is not a "I have already made a decision; please help me justify it" thread. This is more along the lines of "here is a hypothetical plan I have; please critique it or improve it". 🙂

First off, I understand that medical school admissions can be very... difficult if one is shooting for a particular geographical area. However, we do have some support that may help ease the geography issue somewhat.

1. My wife's advisor is very both supportive and incredibly-well-funded. At present, she and my spouse have worked out a plan where my spouse begins teaching courses a bit earlier than usual (for marketability, mostly) so that by the time her final years arrive, she will mostly have to worry about writing her actual thesis. Moreover, advisor has volunteered the use of some grant money to cover the cost of having students run my spouse's day-to-day lab work. Theoretically, my spouse will be able to spend large amounts of time writing her thesis near wherever I end up, which will ease the geographical concerns a bit for those years.

2. There are a decent number of medical schools near us, a few of which are state schools which take 95%+ of students from in-state. One of these is at the same university where my sig. other is getting her PhD.

Timeline: My spouse began her PhD in 2008 and is scheduled to finish in either 2013 or 2014. 2014 would be slightly more desirable because it would give her more time for publications/teaching experience.

Theoretical M1-2
I am working at the moment and hope to return to school to finish pre-reqs in the summer of 2010 (or spring if I can manage it). This would place my earliest realistic application time to June 2012, meaning that my M1 and M2 would overlap with spouse's final two years of grad school. Those two years are when advisor said she would try to help my spouse be off-campus as much as possible... because this advisor is basically an incredible person.

Theoretical M3-4
We will be apart during these years. There is no practical way to change that. Either my spouse will be doing a post-doc (Psych, for the person who asked), teaching in one of the fifty US states, working for industry or the government (DC is apparently a possibility), or unemployed (which eases the geographical concerns, but has a few key drawbacks).

Residency
I know very little about how residency matching works, beyond the basics of "everyone picks a program... and just about everyone ends up SOMEwhere." I would welcome some more specific information if anyone has it. My main concern would be landing a residency near wherever my spouse will be working... which could be almost anywhere.

Anyway, I have given this a fair amount of thought. I am very interested in medical school... but not at the cost of my my marriage or my spouse's PhD goals. We are willing to spend 2 or 3 years apart if we have to (we've been long-distance before; it sucks, but it can be done) but I don't think it would be worth it past that.

I realize it will be difficult at minimum, but do you think this is actually doable at all?

Again, thank you for responding. Honest feedback is much appreciated, since as I mentioned I do not want to inadvertently destroy the rest of my life to get through med school. Getting through medical school with an equally-ambitious, academically-inclined spouse is looking pretty rough at this point.

(For what it is worth, the more I learn about this process, the more impressed I am by you non-trads. The only premed students I ever knew were doctors' kids who wanted to be nephrologists and surgeons since birth. Jumping into the game after the age of 18 or so seems quite time-consuming and difficult. So more power to you. )

 

[sgtbrushes]

We are willing to spend 2 or 3 years apart if we have to (we've been long-distance before; it sucks, but it can be done) but I don't think it would be worth it past that.

I am a vet; my wife and I were separated for months and months at a time because of deployments. 2-3 years is pretty long, but it's not like you would literally not see each other. Hopefully you could take turns flying to see each other, once a month or something. On the one hand, you will spend a lot of your time at the hospital during MS3, so there's not a lot of time you'd have together anyway. On the other hand, because it is such a hard year, it'd tough coming home at the end of the day and not being able to be with your wife.

ResidencyI know very little about how residency matching works, beyond the basics of "everyone picks a program... and just about everyone ends up SOMEwhere." I would welcome some more specific information if anyone has it. My main concern would be landing a residency near wherever my spouse will be working... which could be almost anywhere.

This is coming from a pre-med, so I haven't personally experienced it, but basically, you make a "top 10 list" of where you want to be a resident, except "10" can be a much higher number. Let's say you want to do UMich's Dermatology program. You rank that #1 on your residency application. 50 other med students, nationwide, apply.

UMich has 8 residency spots. UMich interviews 25 of the 51 applicants, including you, and they rank their applicants from 1-25. Common sense would dictate that applicants 1-8 become UMich's dermatology residents. HOWEVER, 2 students from 1-8 ranked UMich #5 on their application and Ohio State as #1, and both students were also accepted to Ohio State's dermatology program. Because they ranked OSU higher, they will go to OSU, and UMich's 1-10 applicants, except for the two accepting positions in OSU will be offered a residency spot.

The match is binding - it is not like med school. You will do your application, do all your interviews, a computer will eat up all of your rankings and all of the school's ranking and spit out the result. If you are "offered" a residency position, you must take it.

The match also always works in your favor, not the school's favor. If you make UMich your #1 choice, and they have 8 slots, and the school ranks you their #8 applicant, you will be offered a position, even if your #2 school marks you as their #1 choice... Does that make sense?

Edited: Math is hard.

 

[alienwares]

That explanation of residency matching is very clear and succinct. Thank you. This may be a very interesting next couple of years, if it works out.

 

[clausewitz2]

If you're interested in the details of how the matching works, the algorithm can be found here (although the real one has a few minor modifications):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem

It can be mathematically demonstrated that the algorithm used is optimal for potential residents, interestingly.

 

[unimaginative]

Ending up where you want for medical is difficult at best since many people are desperate to just be accepted. 2008 acceptance rates is around 44%.

Finish medical school and do either family practice or internal medicine and you have tons of geographic flexibility.

Might be best to apply to medical school everywhere, hopefully get accepted somewhere. Then have your wife finish her pHD doing her writing near where you are. Then she can do 2-3 post docs and then have her apply for jobs your final year of school let her land one and then apply to every program in your chose field within 50 miles of her new job. There are literally tons of programs in IM and FP some excellent, some good and some crappy. There will be trade offs to get what you want. If you are thinking about any of the competitive specialities things might be tuff. They are more like medical school where people are desperate just to "Match" and have little ability to express geopgraphical preferences.

 

[Esq2DOhopeful]

Please don't take this as advice. Everyone's situation is different. I'm giving you my scenario.

I'm in the same boat. My wife is getting her Ph.D. in Chicago. I want to go to med school. For me, I cannot be far away from my wife, its not an option at 27.

I'm doing my pre-reqs at night and then going with her wherever she get a job. At that point, I will apply to whatever schools (MD or DO) are within driving distance--hopefully she will land in an area with multiple schools (NY, DC, South Florida) if not, I'm kissing my dream goodbye.

The reason I have that attitude (and NOT saying that you should also) is because my wife already followed and waited for me for my first professional degree (JD) and put her studies on hold until now. We need to start a family and get on with our lives, I can't disrupt that for selfish reasons at this point in our lives.
d
I work as an attorney now, and hate it. My dream scenario is 4 years of pre-reqs at night so I can work in the day time. She gets a job in a geographic region with 3-6+ MD/DO schools nearby. I get into one of those school when we move over there.... after that residency should not be difficult to get (IM/FP) in an area with many schools/hospitals.

If it works out, I'll be living my dream. If it doesn't... I'm an adult, I can live with the choice I've made in my life. As long as I have my wife, I can live my life.

 

[sgtbrushes]

As long as I have my wife, I can live my life.

QFT.

...Also, having an M.D. would be nice😀

 

[alienwares]

Deep breath... this sounds very difficult, but doable.

I think I'm going to begin volunteering again to make sure this is what I really want. If that goes well, I'll worry about taking the pre-reqs while keeping my job.

One question: it IS entirely normal to find the pre-med curriculum difficult, right? I took Anatomy and Physiology, a course intended mostly for PT and nursing majors, and thought it was the toughest course I ever took. I am presently interpreting this to mean that my high-school work ethic just didn't survive college, but some of you appear to be geniuses so I can't be sure. Is finding pre-med coursework difficult par for the course, or a sign I should be considering other options?

Thank you as always for your responses. 🙂

 

[sgtbrushes]

One question: it IS entirely normal to find the pre-med curriculum difficult, right?

Absolutely, especially if you've been out of school for awhile. Every school is different; they have different classes that are easy/ hard. I took calc this semester after having not been in school for 6 years, and I think it was pretty hard. Luckily, I could devote plenty of study time to it. If you take more and more sciences courses and struggle in all of them, then that isn't necessarily normal, but some schools just have more difficult science classes than others, too.

 

[Rickybobby]

I too am in a similar situation; however, my wife and I agreed to plan things a bit differently. My wife was applying to Phd programs before we were married and I planned to complete my undergrad degree and apply to medical school. We agreed that my I would support my wife while she attended graduate school and once she was finished I would complete my undergrad and apply to medical school.

At this point my wife is finished with her Phd and is now working on her postdoc. I applied to undergraduate programs near where she applied to post-doc positions and she was hired and I was accepted in the Boston area. Currently, she is doing her post-doc at a very prestigious college and I am completing my undergrad at an equally prestigious school in the same area.

I plan to apply broadly to medical school and my wife plans to get a position were ever I get into medical school. Conversely, if my wife gets a faculty position at a university that I apply I plan to use her leverage to get into medical school. If this all works out it will be great. However, the inevitable may happen and we are ready to live apart if needed.

You must plan for everything. Although my wife and I have made every effort to plan for things that may come up we could still end up living apart for 4 or even 8 years. It may happen this way you must be prepared if you truly want to pursue your career and your wife also truly wants to pursue her career. Unfortunately, this is something that may/will come up.

My advice is too plan as much as possible, even if you have to put off your (or your spouses) career aspirations.

RB

 

[graduate2be]

Hello all,

I have been considering pursuing a post-bacc and trying to enter medical school for a while now. However, I am no longer a single college student, and I recently got married to someone who is very special to me. However, she is pursuing a PhD and is aiming for a tenure-track position eventually... hence, my dilemma.

Basically, I want to determine if I can go to med school and do my residency while still being near my spouse. I realize that it is very difficult to even get into one school, let alone one in a specific geographical area, but we are fortunate enough to be located in Texas, a state blessed with many (cheap-ish!) schools and I think it may be possible to attend somewhere nearby if I pull super grades finishing my pre-reqs (undergrad GPA was a 3.8, but was a 4.0 for the last 3 semesters or so).

However, while I am in med school my spouse will finish her PhD and look for university jobs, and I am concerned that I may not be able to land a residency near wherever she ends up finding a job. Can someone please explain in brief how residency matching works, exactly? Is it reasonably possible to be able to get some residency, if not a super-difficult one like dermatology, within a certain geographical region? Or is it too much of a crapshoot?

Apologies for the wishy-washiness. I want to return to school and attend medical school, but not before I have a good idea whether it may involve splitting with my spouse for several years. I understand that residency can be rough on relationships as is, and I'd like to know what the risks are before I begin. Thank you.

(Alternately, stories of how you managed a temporary split for med school are also welcome. The prospect frightens.)

My fiance and I are in a similar boat. She's in a Ph.D program at SIU-Carbondale and I'm finishing undergrad here in Arizona and will likely stay here for post bac (Midwestern-Glendale) with hopes of attending medical school here or someplace on the west coast. My fiance wants to come back out here but as others have noted, its hard to get a faculty job these days and after I finish post bac, there is no guarantee that I'll get into a school out here or for that matter, any medical school. What we've decided to do is take things one day at a time and we really spend time working on making our relationship stronger. You and your wife do the same. There are so many variables here that you'll make yourself crazy if you try to think of every possible situation. If yall love each other enough, your relationship will survive the hard times and if you have a strong faith, just know that the Lord will show the two of you a path. Wish you well.

 

[murfettie]

I met this guy when I was an undergrad and he was getting his PhD, our relationship was somewhat ruined due the inevitable separation after he graduates to pursue an academic career. No commitment doesn't make a good long term stable relationship, but there are many good things about our relationship.
5 more years have past, and we've been friends and close, by now we both realized how difficult having a girlfriend/boyfriend that knows you, tolerates you, cares for you regardless, and is your best friend is by now.
When I was 20, he was 24, he refused to do long-distance of any kind.
Now, I guess, we both decided we can live with some compromises.
He just told me last week, "please, try to go to a med school within TWO states of me"
The good thing i think is, he went to grad school, it was super hard, took an 60k tenure track academic job vs a 100K+ industry job, so he understands your dreams and aspiration, and the workload required.
oh, modern times.