Getting a TT Job

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

StilgarMD

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
348
Reaction score
80
So I've heard a ton about the 200 applications to 1 job for Basic science departments all over the place, but talking with some MD/PhDs with jobs, they seem to suggest the game is totally different for us. Anyone know where I can learn about this? Despite the fact it may be more straight forward to get a position, it seems like funding is still going to be a challenge. Just trying to get a feel for odds. I'm also in the bind of aiming for a particular location, so trying to make moves to maximize chances of landing at a particular institution (Not on the coasts, fwiw).
 
Totally different. Just get well trained, work hard, publish good papers (don't need to be in C/N/S) and you'll be fine.
 
No, the fact of having a dual degree will not change the calculus of competition for obtaining a tenure track job.

The advantage of having an MD is that you can make your salary by seeing patients, so are not entirely dependent on grants/institutional funds. This opens up positions on the clinical faculty (non tenure track) which are significantly less competitive to obtain. It also provides a safety net if you lose your grants, regardless of your faculty line.

The down side is that all of the time you put into clinical training is time you didn't put into research, which reduces your paper output and makes you less competitive for tenure track jobs in the first place. There's no free lunch.
 
If you want a TT job in a basic science department with some clinical - classic 80/20 split - do a specialty that allows you to position yourself where you can get a K08 or K99/R00 and then try for a Burroughs.

I see alot of people in specialties where its hard position yourself from a career development granting standpoint.
 
Thanks for the info all. I am interested in psychiatry, which fortunately I've heard is a residency/specialty which facilitates more than hinders research. It does seem to boil down to funding situation often and lining yourself up to have the research portfolio to secure funding, now and in the future.
 
The odds are shown in the paper cited. Overall, approximately 50% of the total do >50% research. Psychiatry is reasonable at 44%, but not as high as neurology or medicine, probably relating to booming job market psychiatrists have outside of academia. Keep in mind the salary differential between a full time private practice psychiatrist and a full time academic researcher can easily exceed 200%.
 
I wonder how this breakdown would be shifted by gauging people's interest in a research career at the end of the program. I'm sure plenty of people switch after encountering various barriers down the line, but some students at the end of the PhD are done with research. Fortunately I'm not in lots of debt and my partner stands to do alright, so my hope is that as long as I have research opportunities, I'll move on those instead of trying to maximize income.
 
I wonder how this breakdown would be shifted by gauging people's interest in a research career at the end of the program. I'm sure plenty of people switch after encountering various barriers down the line, but some students at the end of the PhD are done with research. Fortunately I'm not in lots of debt and my partner stands to do alright, so my hope is that as long as I have research opportunities, I'll move on those instead of trying to maximize income.

AAMC 2018 MD/PhD national outcomes study surveyed MD/PhD grads in residency or fellowship. See below ("in training" refers to in postgraduate training).

1573222485339.png


So 86% expect academic full-time. I bet the vast majority are expecting significant (majority?) research careers at that stage, or else why train as an MD/PhD and work in academics? Unfortunately the percentage of MD/PhD grads who end up in academics is on the decline. See below.

1573222606954.png


In my specialty, only ~25% actually work as majority researchers. I can tell you anecodally it's not for lack of trying. The jobs just aren't there. (ref: JCI Insight. 2019;4(19):e133009. JCI Insight - The national MD-PhD program outcomes study: Relationships between medical specialty, training duration, research effort, and career paths.)

1573222907845.png
 
Last edited:
I wonder how this breakdown would be shifted by gauging people's interest in a research career at the end of the program. I'm sure plenty of people switch after encountering various barriers down the line, but some students at the end of the PhD are done with research. Fortunately I'm not in lots of debt and my partner stands to do alright, so my hope is that as long as I have research opportunities, I'll move on those instead of trying to maximize income.


From my experience, it's useless to gauge interest at the end of the program, since everyone will still say yes to a career in research.

People don't usually move on from research purely because of money. Most people are willing to take a reasonable pay cut if the career is much more desirable. However, at the moment the research career has many undesirable components, that compare to a solid lifestyle specialty medicine career (psych or rad onc), the advantage is just not clear. Adding the $ factor then you have a high attrition.

In particular, the idea that a research career can enjoy a great degree of intellectual freedom has been oversold. Due to "malignant competition", in the last 10 years research careers are increasingly about identifying institutional priorities, protracted negotiations between you, NIH, the institution that hires you to find the right topics to project your expertise, and leverage other resources to plug holes in your research program (i.e. filling salary support when there's a funding gap, hiring part time staff when the budget is insufficient, etc et). Many grant applications will be filed because they support a team, not because they are interesting. Cooperative agreements and large multi-site grants are more common. Management is also much more corporate: typically your skill in securing funding (rainmaking) is judged more than the actual originality of your ideas. In fact, people are routinely discouraged from pitching original ideas because they won't secure enough $.

In other words, these days you should go into research because you enjoy the process of rainmaking and being a good "team player", and be fully prepared to do things you don't care about, not because you want to do some cottage industry science of some obscure topic of narcissistic interest.
 
Of ancillary interest, if you aim to do top science at a top location (i.e. Boston, SF, NY, etc.), the QOL difference between 150k salary and 300k salary is huge. Almost to an unacceptable degree that many single earner physician-scientists who have family in their early 30s drop out for this very reason. Your mileage would obviously vary a lot but just a thought...
 
From my experience, it's useless to gauge interest at the end of the program, since everyone will still say yes to a career in research.

People don't usually move on from research purely because of money. Most people are willing to take a reasonable pay cut if the career is much more desirable. However, at the moment the research career has many undesirable components, that compare to a solid lifestyle specialty medicine career (psych or rad onc), the advantage is just not clear. Adding the $ factor then you have a high attrition.

In particular, the idea that a research career can enjoy a great degree of intellectual freedom has been oversold. Due to "malignant competition", in the last 10 years research careers are increasingly about identifying institutional priorities, protracted negotiations between you, NIH, the institution that hires you to find the right topics to project your expertise, and leverage other resources to plug holes in your research program (i.e. filling salary support when there's a funding gap, hiring part time staff when the budget is insufficient, etc et). Many grant applications will be filed because they support a team, not because they are interesting. Cooperative agreements and large multi-site grants are more common. Management is also much more corporate: typically your skill in securing funding (rainmaking) is judged more than the actual originality of your ideas. In fact, people are routinely discouraged from pitching original ideas because they won't secure enough $.

In other words, these days you should go into research because you enjoy the process of rainmaking and being a good "team player", and be fully prepared to do things you don't care about, not because you want to do some cottage industry science of some obscure topic of narcissistic interest.

Well, I guess that is where the flexibility of the MD/PhD comes in. If we find the costs too high for the unfulfilled ideals the career promised at the start, then we bail. I'm hoping that leverage to do less 'PI-TT' style research careers where you're a collaborator with someone doing that. Who knows what the game will look like in the ~8 years before I arrive there... Always good to have options I guess.

P.S - my goal is likely to live in Michigan long term. So COL shouldn't be a big deal. If not there, likely Philly. or wherever I can get the job I'm looking for ... lol.
 
Last edited:
In other words, these days you should go into research because you enjoy the process of rainmaking and being a good "team player", and be fully prepared to do things you don't care about, not because you want to do some cottage industry science of some obscure topic of narcissistic interest.

This hits me hard. Damn that sucks...
 
Top