Getting out of the Marines, Setting Sail for Med School

[sleepisboring]

I've been lurking around this forum for a long time as an anonymous viewer, only recently getting an account and just today posting this introduction. I'd like to say hello to everyone here, give a little bit about myself, tell you where I'm heading, and ask that you offer feedback (especially if you have experience with admissions and other people who have been admitted to med school).

Introduction. I turn 26 at the end of this month, and have 100 college credits toward a BA in Sociology from a regionally-accredited online university. I spent 5 years in the infantry and the last 3 years in Intelligence, and at both jobs I have never worked less than 60 hours per week (with my average probably being close to 70). At the end of June I will be going on terminal leave and heading down to South Carolina, next to UC Upstate and Greenville Med @ SC. I have a wife and a brilliant 7-month old daughter.

I've always devoted myself to helping others. I joined the Marines as soon as I could after 9/11 because I thought that would be the best way to do that (I come from a family where I'm the first person to finish high school, so it's no wonder where the lack of academic motivation came from). I joined the Infantry and subsequently became a combat instructor for three years. I reenlisted into Intelligence and am currently finishing up this last three year assignment. In June I will have 8 total years active duty. I was selected last month for E-6.

I realized after my first tour that 1) I had no money saved up (thank you divorce at 22), 2) homework at an online college was the only thing keeping my intelligence salient, and 3) I wanted to finish college. I had no credentials except military service and already was making a name for myself in the intelligence community before I even joined, so doing something like a latmove to the Navy and joining the med corps would have been smart but I chose to pursue a social science degree while being an intelligence analyst instead. I wanted to save up money for higher education, get a solid foot in academia, and prepare myself for my future (which I was oblivious to at the time).

In the limited time I had to commit to school I decided that American Military University (I know, I know) was my best option. I'm enrolled in the last three classes that I'm going to take at this place, which end this month. I will have a total of 100 credit hours toward a BA in Sociology.

One of the things going to school online does is force you out of the natural sciences. When I was starting school in 2008, online pedagogy was still in its infancy, and the only programs available were ones that required research and writing (social science). I understand that today there are places like UNE, which is AOA-accredited and offers pre-med programs entirely online. But I have read a lot about university admissions, I've read a lot about med school admissions, and I don't want to start building my application with a degree from American Military University. I've since cancelled my last 21 credits that have been scheduled and will be pursuing university studies elsewhere (see below, "Academics").

I've thought about becoming a counselor because of all of my experience as a substance abuse officer and suicide prevention / alcohol and tobacco cessation counselor in the military. I like it, and I'm good at it, but it's not enough for me. With my intelligence training, clearance, and certifications I can land a six-figure job in a heart beat (private companies are practically begging us to join them and go deploy for a year for $250k), but it's not enough. I've learned over the past few years studying society, social institutions, and human behavior that money does not drive me, nor does some pseudo-altruistic sense of pride that I see in my military colleagues. I've only ever found joy in helping others, teaching others, inspiring others. I love making people feel better, and I love making their days better. I love science and I love how the human body works. I just can't see myself not working in in a hospital in ten years.

Academics. Here's where I start needing help from the more experienced people here. I've got 100 credit hours completed toward a BA in Sociology, but am ready to stop it immediately. Here's three things that I am going off of (please tell me if my thinking is wrong):

- No one will take me seriously as a med school applicant with a degree from "American Military University"

- My experience in social science is good, but without biology and chemistry in my curriculum I have no real foundation (or hope)

- It will be better to not be in school the next three months and wait until I can finish a degree at University of South Carolina than it would be to have an online bachelors in sociology from American Military University

I just came up with this plan today as I was talking with a friend of mine who works in healthcare and said that he has literally never met a physician, whether a new resident or seasoned vet, who had an online degree in anything. I'm not against telecommunication technology and the internet to deliver college courses. I think it's absolutely wonderful that we have come this far as a technological society. But when it comes to teamwork, face-to-face problem solving in lab settings, and dealing with potential LOR writers directly, I feel that I am doing myself a disservice by completing my undergraduate degree online.

Some things to consider:

GPA. My current GPA is a 3.0, and if I graduate from AMU there is no changing that. If I wait until I'm out and get to a brick-and-mortar university, I have the ability to change my major to one of the natural sciences and get my GPA up. Sure, I will have completed a lot more classes that I needed to, but a Minor in Sociology (I'm pretty sure I'll qualify for that) probably never hurt anyone. I know that without any biology and chemistry, only one physics class (B+) and one college algebra class (CLEP), I'll have my work cut out for me.

Time. I know what I want to do, so I'm not looking for a quick fix. I want to be competitive, and I want to have an awesome and unique application. Real life exists, though, and I have a 7-month old daughter and a wife to take care of. While we wont be paying rent until I'm accepted to and start med school, I still need to make money in the mean time. I'm going to look into converting my MGIB over to the Post 9/11 in order to produce a semi-passive income.

Commitment. I'm fortunate to have a stay-at-home mom as my wife who is 100% ready to sacrifice our social lives and income in order for me to accomplish this goal. My own personal work ethic is insurmountable, and I will stop at nothing to accomplish the goals that I set in life.

Now here comes my questions:

1. Is my undergraduate plan a smart idea, given my goals of becoming competitive on a med school application? If not, should I consider graduating from AMU and doing a post-bac program in Bio Science to fulfill the requirements?

2. Since I wont be in school April, May, or June, and stuck in Virginia until I move at the end of June, I was thinking of going to night school / weekend classes to become a patient care tech or phlebotomy tech in order to give myself an immediate, part-time opportunity to either volunteer or work directly with patients in a clinical setting. Is this something that I should be pursuing?

3. As a 26-year old former Marine who hasn't set foot in a classroom since the last time I was an instructor in 2009, what do you see as some roadblocks and opportunities that I'll need to be mindful of both professionally and academically as I create a competitive, well-rounded experience and application?

Thank you all for taking the time to read this and I'm looking forward to your responses. I never shy away from criticism so please offer any advice you feel necessary. I think I have done a pretty good job hashing out my expectations of myself, and hope that you can provide some insight as to whether or not I'm on the right track.

- Jesse

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Some things to consider:

GPA. My current GPA is a 3.0, and if I graduate from AMU there is no changing that. If I wait until I'm out and get to a brick-and-mortar university, I have the ability to change my major to one of the natural sciences and get my GPA up. Sure, I will have completed a lot more classes that I needed to, but a Minor in Sociology (I'm pretty sure I'll qualify for that) probably never hurt anyone. I know that without any biology and chemistry, only one physics class (B+) and one college algebra class (CLEP), I'll have my work cut out for me.

Time. I know what I want to do, so I'm not looking for a quick fix. I want to be competitive, and I want to have an awesome and unique application. Real life exists, though, and I have a 7-month old daughter and a wife to take care of. While we wont be paying rent until I'm accepted to and start med school, I still need to make money in the mean time. I'm going to look into converting my MGIB over to the Post 9/11 in order to produce a semi-passive income.

Commitment. I'm fortunate to have a stay-at-home mom as my wife who is 100% ready to sacrifice our social lives and income in order for me to accomplish this goal. My own personal work ethic is insurmountable, and I will stop at nothing to accomplish the goals that I set in life.

Now here comes my questions:

1. Is my undergraduate plan a smart idea, given my goals of becoming competitive on a med school application? If not, should I consider graduating from AMU and doing a post-bac program in Bio Science to fulfill the requirements?

2. Since I wont be in school April, May, or June, and stuck in Virginia until I move at the end of June, I was thinking of going to night school / weekend classes to become a patient care tech or phlebotomy tech in order to give myself an immediate, part-time opportunity to either volunteer or work directly with patients in a clinical setting. Is this something that I should be pursuing?

3. As a 26-year old former Marine who hasn't set foot in a classroom since the last time I was an instructor in 2009, what do you see as some roadblocks and opportunities that I'll need to be mindful of both professionally and academically as I create a competitive, well-rounded experience and application?

Thank you all for taking the time to read this and I'm looking forward to your responses. I never shy away from criticism so please offer any advice you feel necessary. I think I have done a pretty good job hashing out my expectations of myself, and hope that you can provide some insight as to whether or not I'm on the right track.

- Jesse

Your GPA is your GPA whether or not you finish at this school. You will have to document and report all of these classes to AMCAS/AACOMAS. What your GPA is at your schools is different and irrelevant.

Time, you have plenty

It may be beneficial for your wife to have at least a part-time job at least while you're in med school. If you look around on here, it is very hard to support a family with no income besides student loans. Just a thought.

Q1: You will have to find out what will transfer into the school you're planning to attend, it may limit the courses, but yes, having the degree granted from a highly reputable university is better than having it granted from the online school.

Q2: Clinical exposure is a huge benefit, paid is better, also it may get you into some shadowing options you otherwise may not have had. Shadowing is also very important, even if you have other clinical experience.

Q3: You're young, roadblocks aren't really an issue, if you improve your GPA and score well on the MCAT, you'll have an equal or better chance than everyone else out there...

 

[sleepisboring]

Q1: You will have to find out what will transfer into the school you're planning to attend, it may limit the courses, but yes, having the degree granted from a highly reputable university is better than having it granted from the online school.

I was more concerned with my not having any bio and chem w/lab via online school. I think it would be smarter to add another 1-2 years in undergraduate science classes and graduate from USC than it would be to get a bachelors from AMU and do a post-bac somewhere.

Q2: Clinical exposure is a huge benefit, paid is better, also it may get you into some shadowing options you otherwise may not have had. Shadowing is also very important, even if you have other clinical experience.

This was my thinking as well. Where I'm going, Greenville hospital has tons of jobs for techs and phlebotomists (especially for veterans, apparently, after talking with some of the HR people there), and I was considering getting a certification in the next few months in order to capitalize on the clinical experience and income that even part-time employment while in school will provide.

Q3: You're young, roadblocks aren't really an issue, if you improve your GPA and score well on the MCAT, you'll have an equal or better chance than everyone else out there...

Both of those will happen. I still think I'm at a sort of disadvantage sometimes because I didn't go straight from high school to college, but I'm confident that my experience in life so far will only help me in the long run.

I appreciate your input.

 

[sleepisboring]

The advantage of finishing your degree and then moving into a postbacc are at least twofold

1) Learn to be a student: as you pointed out you have been in the field and out of the classroom for so long. Perhaps finishing your degree in a brick and mortar school will help you in that regard. You may in fact want to take classes towards sociology and see if they will all transfer back to the military school for degree.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Are you saying that getting back into a brick-and-mortar classroom would be more beneficial, or finishing my degree online would be more beneficial?

I think you're suggesting to finish my Sociology degree once I'm available to go to school in person. Is that correct?

2) GPA calculation. The way the GPA is calculated for medical school is split on two factors. First is on Undergrad, PostBacc, Grad. Second is science (BCPM) and non-science (all other). If you complete your current degree then do a PB, both your PB GPA and your science GPA should be improved greatly over your overall GPA.

Thank you for breaking that down for me. I was under the impression that my undergraduate gpa is going to matter regardless of what post-bac studies I do. Is this not the case? If it is, wouldn't extending my undergraduate education another year or two to get my GPA ~3.5 a smarter idea than graduate with a 3.0?

 

[DrMidlife]

- No one will take me seriously as a med school applicant with a degree from "American Military University"

Online coursework is not generally prohibited, but a lot of schools frown on it and won't accept it at all for science coursework. Online coursework (such as U of Phoenix) is considered grade-inflated and prone to fraud and low quality. You typically can't get a decent letter of recommendation for online work, and you need 3-5 letters. But what are you going to do? Being in the military is one of the few good reasons to do online coursework - nobody's going to begrudge you trying to pursue your education during your service. All you have to do to overcome any anti-online bias is show that you can get A's in hard sciences in the classroom.

- My experience in social science is good, but without biology and chemistry in my curriculum I have no real foundation (or hope)

Doesn't matter what a degree contains, you have to take the prereqs somehow, somewhere. Generally the med school prereqs are a year each, with labs, of gen chem, organic chem, bio & physics. Lots of schools also require calculus, genetics & biochem, as well as English & humanities.

- It will be better to not be in school the next three months and wait until I can finish a degree at University of South Carolina than it would be to have an online bachelors in sociology from American Military University

I agree with this. You're looking at 2-3 more years of undergrad, and you have to get a very high GPA in all remaining coursework. Such as straight A's.

GPA. My current GPA is a 3.0, and if I graduate from AMU there is no changing that.

There's no changing it if you change schools, either. You have to submit your AMU transcript when you apply to med school. All your undergrad grades are averaged together into a cumulative number. If you take another 100 units at a 4.0, you'll have a 3.5.

If I wait until I'm out and get to a brick-and-mortar university, I have the ability to change my major to one of the natural sciences and get my GPA up.

Easy there. Expect to find that the natural sciences are considerably more difficult than online sociology, and A's aren't yours for the asking. I suggest you should take one or two pre-premed math or science classes and get A's before you choose a major. Disregard this advice at your peril.

Sure, I will have completed a lot more classes that I needed to, but a Minor in Sociology (I'm pretty sure I'll qualify for that) probably never hurt anyone. I know that without any biology and chemistry, only one physics class (B+) and one college algebra class (CLEP), I'll have my work cut out for me.

Again, you'll be given consideration for military service. It's extremely common for veterans to have multiple plexy-twisty transcripts that don't look anything like the files for fresh 22 year olds. This is to your benefit - it's not a red flag.

While we wont be paying rent until I'm accepted to and start med school, I still need to make money in the mean time. I'm going to look into converting my MGIB over to the Post 9/11 in order to produce a semi-passive income.

Three things on money.

First, get over to the military forum and ask about strategy. Assume 3 more years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Are you eligible for and/or interested in military scholarships?

Second, work on a part time gig that you can leverage long-term. You can't make much as an EMT or phlebotomist, but those are good examples of work that are portable and flexible and can be done during school.

Third, federal student loans come with support for repayment after medical school. Don't rule out taking on some federal debt if it gets you where you want to be. Stay far, far away from private loans.

1. Is my undergraduate plan a smart idea, given my goals of becoming competitive on a med school application? If not, should I consider graduating from AMU and doing a post-bac program in Bio Science to fulfill the requirements?

Yeah, I like the plan of a university bio degree. Couple other things on this: you don't have to major in a science as long as you get plenty of science coursework done (such as finish a soc major and do a biochem minor). Also, the isolation of online coursework is a huge factor. Being around other students, even though they look and act like alcoholic embryos who can't survive for 45 seconds without a plastic-wrapped snack food or a facebook update, can be a strong positive. Look for the genius embryos: the kids who are able to figure out how to get A's, how to get shadowing, how to get into labs to do research, how to get interesting hospital volunteering gigs. Also start working on getting faculty to know you so that they can easily write you glowing letters of recommendation.

2. Since I wont be in school April, May, or June, and stuck in Virginia until I move at the end of June, I was thinking of going to night school / weekend classes to become a patient care tech or phlebotomy tech in order to give myself an immediate, part-time opportunity to either volunteer or work directly with patients in a clinical setting. Is this something that I should be pursuing?

Definitely.

3. As a 26-year old former Marine who hasn't set foot in a classroom since the last time I was an instructor in 2009, what do you see as some roadblocks and opportunities that I'll need to be mindful of both professionally and academically as I create a competitive, well-rounded experience and application?

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Your academic prowess remains to be proven, and I can't emphasize enough that every grade you get that isn't an A is a step away from med school. So getting A's is way more important than any other strategem.

You'll find that your military experience is a benefit in innumerable ways. You have to do a lot of hurry up and waiting, and you have to do a lot of jumping through hoops for the sole purpose of demonstrating hoop jumping.

Your shopping list for the next couple years:
1. straight A's
2. mastery of science content (for the MCAT and for med school)
3. mastery of writing and verbal comprehension (for the MCAT and for med school)
4. clinical exposure, through work and/or volunteering
5. community service (largely covered by military service)
6. letters of recommendation from science and non-science faculty
7. clinical or bench research, if that interests you
8. things that have nothing to do with med school, like sports and arts
9. very high MCAT score

The most important factors are GPA (cumulative of 3.6 is average) and MCAT (32+ is average).

Look into DO schools as well - there's a new one in SC, a VCOM branch campus.

Keep us posted.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

and don't forget: #10, always listen to Dr.Midlife and Q... 🙂

I will clarify, I do not think you need a post-bacc at this point. Finish the degree at USC as planned, and only do a PB if you need some more help in the GPA department...

 

[sleepisboring]

DrMidlife,

The most informative advice I've had regarding my immediate future so far. Thank you for your honest comments.

Some of my key takeaways from what you said:

- Every grade that is NOT an A is a step AWAY from med school (very good method of motivation)

- Portable and flexible clinical exposure is a two-fold benefit (so keep pursuing it)

- High GPA, High MCAT Score (high gpa, high mcat score, high gpa, high mcat score)

 

[Law2Doc]

Online coursework is not generally prohibited, but a lot of schools frown on it and won't accept it at all for science coursework. Online coursework (such as U of Phoenix) is considered grade-inflated and prone to fraud and low quality. You typically can't get a decent letter of recommendation for online work, and you need 3-5 letters. But what are you going to do? Being in the military is one of the few good reasons to do online coursework - nobody's going to begrudge you trying to pursue your education during your service. All you have to do to overcome any anti-online bias is show that you can get A's in hard sciences in the classroom.

Doesn't matter what a degree contains, you have to take the prereqs somehow, somewhere. Generally the med school prereqs are a year each, with labs, of gen chem, organic chem, bio & physics. Lots of schools also require calculus, genetics & biochem, as well as English & humanities.

I agree with this. You're looking at 2-3 more years of undergrad, and you have to get a very high GPA in all remaining coursework. Such as straight A's.

There's no changing it if you change schools, either. You have to submit your AMU transcript when you apply to med school. All your undergrad grades are averaged together into a cumulative number. If you take another 100 units at a 4.0, you'll have a 3.5.

Easy there. Expect to find that the natural sciences are considerably more difficult than online sociology, and A's aren't yours for the asking. I suggest you should take one or two pre-premed math or science classes and get A's before you choose a major. Disregard this advice at your peril.

Again, you'll be given consideration for military service. It's extremely common for veterans to have multiple plexy-twisty transcripts that don't look anything like the files for fresh 22 year olds. This is to your benefit - it's not a red flag.

Three things on money.

First, get over to the military forum and ask about strategy. Assume 3 more years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Are you eligible for and/or interested in military scholarships?

Second, work on a part time gig that you can leverage long-term. You can't make much as an EMT or phlebotomist, but those are good examples of work that are portable and flexible and can be done during school.

Third, federal student loans come with support for repayment after medical school. Don't rule out taking on some federal debt if it gets you where you want to be. Stay far, far away from private loans.


Yeah, I like the plan of a university bio degree. Couple other things on this: you don't have to major in a science as long as you get plenty of science coursework done (such as finish a soc major and do a biochem minor). Also, the isolation of online coursework is a huge factor. Being around other students, even though they look and act like alcoholic embryos who can't survive for 45 seconds without a plastic-wrapped snack food or a facebook update, can be a strong positive. Look for the genius embryos: the kids who are able to figure out how to get A's, how to get shadowing, how to get into labs to do research, how to get interesting hospital volunteering gigs. Also start working on getting faculty to know you so that they can easily write you glowing letters of recommendation.

Definitely.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Your academic prowess remains to be proven, and I can't emphasize enough that every grade you get that isn't an A is a step away from med school. So getting A's is way more important than any other strategem.

You'll find that your military experience is a benefit in innumerable ways. You have to do a lot of hurry up and waiting, and you have to do a lot of jumping through hoops for the sole purpose of demonstrating hoop jumping.

Your shopping list for the next couple years:
1. straight A's
2. mastery of science content (for the MCAT and for med school)
3. mastery of writing and verbal comprehension (for the MCAT and for med school)
4. clinical exposure, through work and/or volunteering
5. community service (largely covered by military service)
6. letters of recommendation from science and non-science faculty
7. clinical or bench research, if that interests you
8. things that have nothing to do with med school, like sports and arts
9. very high MCAT score

The most important factors are GPA (cumulative of 3.6 is average) and MCAT (32+ is average).

Look into DO schools as well - there's a new one in SC, a VCOM branch campus.

Keep us posted.

Best of luck to you.

This. In the limited setting of armed service, online coursework is fine, so long as you can show some solid brick and mortar classroom grades as well. Medicine is quite hierarchical in the hospital setting, with pretty definite ranks based on seniority, so military folks often tend to take to the expectations of the training pretty effortlessly.

 

[sleepisboring]

This. In the limited setting of armed service, online coursework is fine, so long as you can show some solid brick and mortar classroom grades as well. Medicine is quite hierarchical in the hospital setting, with pretty definite ranks based on seniority, so military folks often tend to take to the expectations of the training pretty effortlessly.

Previously in my lurking on this forum and others it seems that online learning is really discouraged. I suppose I never put two and two together to realize that most of you all experienced people here discourage online learning for people who have the ability to flex their minds in a physical classroom, and not so much for people who are unable to do so.

What I've basically taken away from the discussion so far (in addition to what I've already outlined) is that once I get on campus I need to put my money where my mouth is and actually get As in science classes.

Thank you Law2Doc for chiming in.

 

[sleepisboring]

Gonnif,

Maybe I'm over thinking this. AMU is a regionally-accredited for-profit online university, a lot different to me than the University of South Carolina. Since my objective is to 1) show that I can be an outstanding student while matriculated as a brick-and-mortar student, 2) have my degree conferred from a respected institution (at least one that does not tout itself as being purely online), and 3) have in-person, thorough instruction in the natural sciences (and all the connections that comes with), I don't see the benefit of transferring credits back to AMU.

Again, I may not be understanding what you're saying.

To build off of what you were saying earlier about the MSAR and who accepts online degrees and who does not, I think in terms of my academic timeline it would be more beneficial to my application to be able to say that as soon as I had the opportunity I transferred to a brick-and-mortar school and finished my degree, rather than finished it online and had to do a post-bac to make up for the science courses.

If this is all crazy talk please call me out on it. The next three months are my critical focus months where I set myself up for success, and I really do appreciate you all talking this through with me.

 

[sleepisboring]

All your GPA will matter. But if you take science classes w/o having an undergrad degree first, your improved grades will simply be rolled into your overall GPA (though still show up in science GPA). If you get a degree than a postbacc, you'll have a separate line item PB GPA that you then can discuss/mention in your narrative .

You've mentioned both options I have.

A: Complete an online degree without science courses. Complete a post-bac to achieve BCPM prerequisites. Have poor undergraduate GPA (~3.0) and high post-bac.

B: Transfer to USC, complete undergraduate degree with a higher GPA than I could with an online degree (with As across the board, depending on how I major, I think I can get it up to 3.3).

I submitted my application for the Fall semester at USC today, and once I get a hold of an admissions counselor this week I'm going to see what transfers over and what type of course load I'm looking at.

So far, here's the way I look at the USC route (B, from above): Continue with a Sociology Major, and elect to Minor in a natural science. This will open up at least 6 classes of pure science (minor) and two to three classes of math and whatever else I still need for the major. As for admission requirements, I need to just make sure my degree plan incorporates the prerequisite BCPM classes.

 

[MarineDocFl]

Welcome to the wonderful world of acedemia, Tulfelhunden.

 

[psychwanderer]

I know that this is an old thread, but I just want to give what I have found out thus far. I am a graduate of American Military University, which I received while serving in the Marine Corps. I have e-mailed multiple medical schools, both MD and DO, and they have said as long as the school is accredited by the DOE and as long as none of the prerequisites are taken online, you should be good to go. However, since this is an online school, which has a very negative stigma to it, you should make sure that you have a high GPA from this school, and that you knock both your prereqs and MCAT out of the park, along with your volunteering, etc.

Good luck to anyone in the same boat as me and OP. I will be starting my post bacc in the fall of 2013 once I get out of the military. 👍