Give Dave advice

[Dave_D]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Well I look at how things are going and it seems very likely I'm not getting in this year.(Actually at this point I'd be lucky to get an interview. I know, I should loose hope but at this point I need to go to plan B) So I thought I'd ask people for advice on my reapplication process.

First off anybody can click my sig to see my stats on mdapplicants. For what it's worth my GPA is a bit misleading, I did horribly as an undergrad when I wasn't trying for anything in the early 90's. However as a post bacc premed I couldn't have done much better.(Took 13 classes, got 1 B+, 3 A-'s, and 9 A's. Oh, and I have a very competative MCAT.) Also I should point out that after finishing my premed stuff over the summer I haven't really done anything to update my application much.(The only thing I could add is my Orgo II grade. Since someone will ask the main reason is that whole "getting sick" thing. What I have been doing is babysitting my niece and nephew alot, not sure how med schools would react to that. Right now I'm trying to just go back to work.)

First off I have asked a few of the places that rejected me so far what they thought. Of these only one has answered anything.(Which was pretty much even though you did awesome post bacc with premed prereqs your undergrad experience is dragging you down. You may want to take more course work. They suggested a grad program would be better. I'm a bit hesitant to do that since I expect that in order to get into a bio or chem grad program I'd have to take a year of bio or chem classes and then another 2 with the grad program so I'd be pushing 40 before med school. It's a bit different that taking 3 or 4 extra classes so you meet the reqs of more schools versus 3-4 extra years of schooling to get a masters and then hoping that will make up for my age.) None have said anything about when I applied but I suspect it may be an issue.(I got my primary in at the end of July, Secondaries in Sept, but what probably hurt me was getting that committee letter which didn't get finished until October.)

So what advice do people have? I plan to apply to DO schools for the next cycle.(Probably 3-5) I was wondering if I just reapplied to some of the same med schools(Dumping at least 3 btw) as last time would be a good idea since my application wouldn't have changed much.(The main difference being I'd be working and I'd get everything in by mid July. Well that and my experiences as a recent patient. I'm wondering since if I don't offer much new to the old schools wouldn't they be just as likely to reject me as before?) I'd also apply to about 5-7 extra med schools so I'd have a total of around 20 Med/DO schools.(Which hopefully would be enough to get a couple of interviews and one acceptance.) I guess I should ask is there anything I should know about DO schools before I apply to them.(I know that it's the other way to become a physician in the US, I may need to take some extra tests to get certain residencies, and that some look down on it.)

 

[remo]

In my non-expert opinion I would say that a couple of things might be holding you back. Do you have any volunteer or clinical experience? I didn't see any but I might have missed it. I have been told that 4 hours a week for 1 year is solid volunteer/clinical exp. Also even though you did well post-bac your overall gpa being under 3.0 might be a big problem. I think many schools have a 3.0 cut off no matter what your post-bac is. Also do you have good LOR's from your post-bac professors or are they just average (i.e. Dave is a good student and got an A in my class...)? Sorry to hear about you health probs, I wonder if that might cause any hesitation on the school's part.

 

[QofQuimica]

My suggestions:

1) Apply to more schools; you've already figured this one out. 😉 Maybe try 20 schools this time like you said.

2) I think you need to re-evaluate your list of schools. Your MCAT score is definitely good, but it is not "very competitive" at schools like Harvard. (Their *average* MCAT is a 35, and most of those kids have the GPAs to match.) I don't know about the MCAT averages at some of those other schools, but you should pick several schools where a 33 is above the average MCAT, since your OA GPA is going to be below avg. at every school. You can still apply to Harvard if you really want, but as a reach school. U Hawaii doesn't take many OOS residents, so I'd leave them off the list altogether. And definitely don't apply anywhere like Brown that won't accept your pre-reqs; that's just throwing your $$ away. You may want to consider some schools in the South and the Midwest if you don't have your heart set on staying in New England.

3) If you want to apply to DO schools, make sure you have a good reason for doing so that you can explain in your essay, and don't make them sound like a "backup" in case allopathic schools don't want you. Shadow a DO, read about the philosophy, etc.

4) If you can, take a few more upper level science classes while you re-apply, and make As in them. You can send updated transcripts to your schools each semester, and use them as further "proof" of your ability and willingness to handle them.

5) Don't give up. You can do this! Best of luck, and hope this helps. 🙂

 

[FDoRoML]

Well I look at how things are going and it seems very likely I'm not getting in this year.(Actually at this point I'd be lucky to get an interview. I know, I should loose hope but at this point I need to go to plan B) So I thought I'd ask people for advice on my reapplication process.

Hi Dave,

Oh boy, do I have some advice for you. I'm just slightly younger than you (not by much!)... also did not-so-hot in undergrad in the early 90s (primarily b/c I was very sick). I came to the decision of med school a little late in life (early 2002) and applied in 2003. I failed dismally-- not even one interview. I got no feedback from the schools as far as what I could do to improve my application (even though I stressed that I KNEW it still did not mean I'd be accepted next time around).

So, I hooked up with an advisor, tentatively at first (always nervous about people who get paid for pre-med stuff-- lots of scheisters out there). I did an "assessment" and got advice about what was good and what was bad, what I could do to make the best case for myself. I hesitated to agree to a full-time advisement package (still wondering about the legitimacy of the "business") and took the advice as best I could. Here's what I did to help myself out:
1. Re-took many of the pre-reqs as a post-bac (any way I could-- night courses, distance courses, at 5 different schools) which I either did not take previously, did poorly in during my first attempt as an undergrad, or just thought might improve my MCAT scores b/c I had not seen it in so long.
-insert here- I should not that I left undergrad after 2 years to figure out why I was sick all the time and, following dx and surgery, slowly completed my BS while working full time in research-
2. Completed my master's (I was about 3 courses away from finishing when I applied to med school the first time... would have finished by the time I matriculated, but it seemed to matter more to them than I expected!).
3. Shadowed physicians (THIS WAS VERY IMPORTANT!!)-- I shadowed one doc for a year and another for 8 months... then on the advice of the same advisor, a D.O. for a few months. All of my "clinical" experience had been with animals or family members/self... shadowing physicians proved I had intimate knowledge of the daily life of a doc, had seen patients without freaking out, and also showed how dedicated I was to go into the profession. I had ridden my medical research background a little too hard in the first application attempt... not enough of the "human factor"

For my re-application, I changed a lot of things by adding all the new experiences PLUS changed the focus of my essay (and added one which I refused to use the first time). I applied to 28 schools total, including D.O. schools... the D.O. schools were the first to respond, offering me September interviews and my first acceptance came in the end of Sept. I was elated!

What I can tell you abotu D.O. schools and the profession--
1. They love people who have "lived" outside of school, and are very sympathetic to non-traditional applicants. They value the maturity and dedication in the older med students.
2. Being from Maryland, we have VERY few DOs here... and I work at a "top-notch" med school, so there's no love there for DOs either. Yes, they dismiss them to some extent. I can tell you that not all regions are like this, and that DOs are very prevalent in the Midwest (where the profession began) plus other pockets (CA, AZ, PA, ME, etc). They get full respect from their patients, and that's what really matters after all... it's the patients who get better and love their docs who provide the most telling evidence. I also have a personal doc who used to practice in ME with a group of DOs (he's an MD)... he said he holds them in the highest regard and in some ways thinks they are better physicians.
3. Yes, traditionally they are great for primary care. I shadowed a surgical specialist to see how he was treated by colleagues and patients, and to see if his skills were any different. He was indiscernable from an MD, except that he seemed to be the only surgeon I've ever known to have close relationships with his patients. He knew their stories and always took into account their entire lives (as well as their diagnosis) in helping them decide if surgery or some other treatment was right for them.
4. You get good training as a physician at DO schools and you get additional training in OMM... as a future surgeon, I would not really use it, but it's just another option in your toolbag depending on your specialty. And I think it is the reason DOs are bar none the best at the musculoskeletal system in board exams.
5. You have to take the COMLEX as a DO student and some schools also require the USMLE or recommend it... helps you keep residency options open. You can choose an osteo or allo residency as a DO. DO schools offer a lot more networking for residency (something I found not good for my married lifestyle-- they encourage you to do a lot of clerkships away from the school... where you will want to do residency... this is a great advantage to get those residencies b/c the people will know you and choose you over someone they've never met, but not good for me!).

I ended up being accepted to 4 DO schools (and turned down interviews at the others, as I narrowed down my choices) and so far only one MD school (also turned down a few interviews and withdrew a few applications that waitlisted me as I narrowed down my choices). What I did made a huge difference, including my advisor (I eventually signed on for a full year of advising to get me through the app process b/c I don't have any pre-med advisor or committee that I can use). If you want more detail I can tell you privately (just send me a message). I think expanding your list of schools to include a few middle-of-the-road ones and some that seem more non-trad friendly will help. I'd also say seriously consider DO schools, too.... I really did not take them seriously until I did my own investigation (including the shadowing) and after interviewing at quite a few-- well, I think it's a great quality of life on top of a great education if you choose to go to one. My choice not to do a DO was a combination of geography, specialty choice, and financials (also, if you want more detail I can tell you privately).

Ha. I bet you never expected a long reply like this.

Keep the faith; it will happen if you want it to!

 

[medworm]

Hi Dave, IMHO there are two roads you can take, of which only the second one is feasible. (1) Aim high, with high MCATs, high GPA, and stellar ECs and get into your choice of MD or (2) Aim low and go DO. You will hear a few elite non-trads with very strong stats urging you to work your butt off to get into the med school of your dreams with a paid scholarship. And then you hear little guys like me, already bruised and whimpering, and suggesting that you go easy on yourself. At the end of the day, you need to decide whether you want to invest time and money into a marathon when a 5K gets you up and running. (It's hella easier to get into a DO.) Whatever you decide, best of luck to you!

 

[MeowMix]

Based on your profile on mdapplicants, I'd say the lack of clinical experience and shadowing killed your application, along with a low GPA and an overly optimistic list of schools, and you weren't complete until early November. Sorry.

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of software engineers wanting to go into medicine (we have a bunch in our med school class) - you need to demonstrate a pretty strong drive and commitment by really exploring what medicine is like. And, you need to line up all the pieces of your app, apply to a wider range of schools, etc., as others have said.

In the admissions process, as an adcom friend of mine would say, you are not being compared to all other applicants; you are being compared to software engineers in their 30s. Keep that in mind. You are pretty much expected to have a fantastic post-bacc GPA and a decent MCAT with a good PS score (33 is now becoming average range at a lot of schools). Lack of clinical experience and shadowing would be a huge shortcoming; it's also an area in which you could shine, and distinguish yourself from the vast pool of cubicle-dwellers on their way to med school.

 

[emgirl]

Hi Dave

There are plenty of one and two year masters programs- you don't have to spend 3-4 years getting a grad degree, so if the med school suggested a grad degree, why not try a one year masters in something bio-related (biochem, cell bio, etc). Or, I would seriously consider doing an additional year of full-time post bac classes (these would be ugrad classes in bio, chem, etc) to bring up your ugrad gpa- i know alot of people that messed up royally way back in the day think its not worth it to even try to repair your gpa, but depending on your circumstance (calculate it out) between now and summer 2007 you could take alot of post bac classes and assuming you rock them, you could bring your gpa up- every class counts, sometimes you have to be willing to put in extra post-bac time if you have a really bad ugrad history to overcome-simply retaking the pre-reqs and a few classes may not cut it. You seem to have done well with the ugrad classes as a post bac so I would say keep on that route until you are in a more safe gpa range. Good luck!

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi Dave, IMHO there are two roads you can take, of which only the second one is feasible. (1) Aim high, with high MCATs, high GPA, and stellar ECs and get into your choice of MD or (2) Aim low and go DO. You will hear a few elite non-trads with very strong stats urging you to work your butt off to get into the med school of your dreams with a paid scholarship. And then you hear little guys like me, already bruised and whimpering, and suggesting that you go easy on yourself. At the end of the day, you need to decide whether you want to invest time and money into a marathon when a 5K gets you up and running. (It's hella easier to get into a DO.) Whatever you decide, best of luck to you!

This is a bit melodramatic, don't you think? It is a false dichotomy to say that you should EITHER make your application as strong as you possibly can, OR ELSE set realistic goals for yourself in terms of picking schools. No one is suggesting that Dave be superhuman. If anything, it seems that we all agree that he did not pick his schools as wisely as he could have. But even if he has a more appropriate number and selection of schools, doesn't it make the most sense for him to still make his app as competitive as he can? Even those "easy to get into" DO schools still reject a bunch of applicants, don't they??? Improving your app while choosing schools wisely works synergistically. They're definitely not mutually exclusive.

 

[Dave_D]

Well I guess I should give some more info.(BTW, thanks to everybody for giving me advice.) Yes I have some experience as a volunteer in a hospital radiology department.(Basically for 6 months at about 8 hours a week. I was also a tutor for biology so I don't know how that weighs in med school considerations.) I have not shadowed a doctor so I probably should look into that.(Given the fact I have to go back to Boston Medical Center every couple of weeks anyway I suppose they would be the obvious choice. You know, turn a negative into a positive. Of course like Q said I probably should see if I could shadow a DO.) I should also mention that as an undergrad I had something like a 2.3.(I have to say I really hated taking all those requirements outside of my major. Post-bacc is something like a 3.95 which is mostly because I could take stuff I actually cared about. I did a back of the envelope calculation and figured even if I did another 19 courses post bacc and got all A's the best I could do would be about 3.2 so there's only so much rehabilitation of my under-grad gpa that can be done. Well, short of developing a time machine 🙂 ) Oh, for anyone that wasn't clear I've actually completed the usual premed course work, all of it post-bacc.(So yes I've taken 2 semesters of chem, orgo, bio, calc, calc physics, and english.) Obviously I could take inorganic chem or genetics or something but really, that'd only nudge up my GPA a slight amount.(A masters would probably be a better bet.)

I will admit that I was trying to stay in New England which kind of colored my selection process.(Ok, I applied to Harvard for the same reasons people play the lottery, can't win if you don't play. I didn't expect to get in but figured what the heck, I mean it is Harvard. Even a long shot is worth it.) At this point Hawaii, MCW, and Albany are all definitely out for the re-application process.(Brown and Harvard are also probably off my re-app list.)

The reason I mention DO's is that my goal is to become a physician and all I cared about is what school will let me do that.(If they won't help me do that then as far as I'm concerned they might as well not exist. Guess that's a little blunt but it's how I'm approaching it.)

What I really need to do now is talk to the premed advisor at UMass and see what else she can tell me to do.(Hopefully she can let me know about a 1 year masters. If I can get a loan or 2 that's definitely do-able. Actually I might be better off doing that than my current plans, working for a year and a half)

I'm still hoping I can get into a school somewhere in the New England area.(Since I am a native. I guess New York/Pennsylvannia wouldn't be too bad either.) Oh no chance of me giving up, I'm far too stubborn for that 😀

 

[Koil Gugliemi]

Good luck Dave. Your GPA makes it a bit of a longshot at any MD school in New England.

Coming from Umass, you can take UVM off your list (rumor has it they figure that umass u-grads will go to Umass Med and why would anyone ever go to UVM over Umass?).

Be sure to try NYmed in westchester and Drexel/MCP/whatever-they-call-it-these-days in Philly. Umass likes Umass grads, but the competition for Umass is as tough as any school out there. I mean why would anyone pay 4-5X as much to go to Tufts or BU when Umass is ranked higher anyways?

You could go to Unecom in ME, nice place to live, as long as you can stomach the DO stuff. (By stomach I mean you can either buy into the "philosophy" or just figure that it's a way into medicine and forget about the letters and not be bothered by the whole minority/underdog thing.

 

[yellowpersuazio]

I would suggest getting an advisor. There usually are many private advisors that can help you choose schools that are right for you, tailor your personal statement, and even connect you with some doctors (MD or DO) to shadow. At the very least, you should buy a MSAR book and learn about the schools' admissions requirements that you will apply to. Applying to Hawaii was a waste of money and showed lack of research, since they stress the importance of being a resident or having strong ties to the island. With such a low GPA, I wouldn't be as geographically selective as you were in this process. I would look into schools that tend to accept older non-trad students and apply there.