Give me a reality check on my md/phd app? Please??? =)

[staphkills]

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Hi all,

I’m going to be a incoming third year at a big public university (not the best but not the worst) , and I was wondering if any of you guys could give me a reality check to see if I’m on a good track to applying to MD/PhD programs?

So far, my grades aren’t superb, and I’m not sure if my GPA will cut it right now. I’ve just finished my 2nd year, and I’ve managed to get a 3.66 with an upward trend. My freshmen GPA was horrible, and the only reason I got it up to that level was my 2nd year grades and some classes I took at my community college. If I manage to do well (ie 4.0 =/ ) my junior year, I might be able to bring it up to a 3.7…but that’s if I do well. If I continue to do well my senior year (4.0 as well…) I might be able to bring it to a 3.8 …but that’s a long shot. I have been able to get around a 4.0 the past few quarters, but I’m hesitant to call this a trend since I think it was mostly luck and a lot of studying. So I’m estimating I will hopefully be able to bring it up to around a 3.7ish.

I haven’t started studying for my MCAT yet, and I know I’m not a very good test taker. I’m pretty pessimistic about my MCAT score, and I hope it will be at least above a 30.

Clinical stuff/ E.C.
-one summer volunteering at a free clinic
-2+ years in a community service club
-clinical research (see a better description below)

As for lab work…I’m like a nomad.
-The summer before my freshmen year I worked with this pathologist on designing a clinical study (that wasn’t really lab work…it was more like reading papers, talking about it with her and other PIs, and meeting a few hours a week)…so I’m a bit hesitant to call that “research”.
-From my freshmen year to now, I’ve been a clinical researcher in the hospital…I’m hesitant to call this “research” since I didn’t do any wet bench research…more like screening patients, talking to residents/attendings, consenting patients and asking patients if we could enroll them in studies and take their blood .
- I’ve spent ~5ish months in a immunology lab my freshmen year, where I worked under a post doc. No publications, and I left the lab since my post doc went to another school and the PIs is about to retire in a year from now.
-after freshmen year I did a summer research program at a pretty good private research university…but no publications, and I was frustrated since I didn’t get any significant data from the project.
-sophomore year, I’ve switched labs to this genetics/microbiology lab…It’s interesting since I’m not working with a post-doc/grad student, more like I talk with a PI and work on a project. I don’t know if this research experience is great since all undergrads in the lab do the lab busy work (like wash dishes…make media…plates) once a week and also I’m not sure how significant my project is as the only help I get is from my PI. My PI is pretty well off…he/she has around 4 grad students and 2 post docs. When I come back to the lab after this summer, I will talk to my PI and try to get a senior thesis rolling…and since I will have more time in the lab, I’ll also talk to a post doc in the lab to try and see if I can work under her as well.
-this summer I’m also doing a summer research program at a different well known uni. I’m a bit unsure about how great this summer research is going since my project is mostly isolating a new stem cell line… so I’m not working on an established project and I’m pretty much going to be starting a totally new project.

Sorry this is a bit long, I’m just very worried about my chances when applying to MD/PhD programs since I’ve looked at a lot of MD/PhD programs and I’ve seen nobody from my undergrad institution go into ok MD/PhD programs after 2003 (keep in mind my undergrad school is a big research university). Almost all MD/PhD students come from very top schools and I’m not sure if I will be able to compete with them. My main go is to go into academic medicine, hopefully research and teaching with a bit of clinical work (60% research, 30% clinical, 10% teaching) so I’m also looking into back up plans. What is the best way to get a faculty position without a MD/PhD? Would it be easier to get a faculty position in academic medicine with just a MD with a post-doc position or just a PhD? Also, could you guys also possibly rate my genetics/microbio lab as well as my current summer lab?

Thanks for reading this long post! For those of you that like it short…

the quick version:

-3.66 GPA from an ok public school (keep in mind it’s not an ivy league or a top public school…just an OK big public university that most of you probably never heard of)
-bad test taker…haven’t done a practice test yet…maybe a high 20s - low 30s mcat
-Please rate my genetics lab and my current summer lab experience? (last two bullet points, 1 paragraph up)
-best back up plan in case MD/PhD is unobtainable if I want to go into academic medicine?

THANKS!

 

[StayingFocused]

from what I've read, your mcat and gpa are a factor, but the research is the most most important part and your research is impressive.
I think you're good.

 

[Shifty B]

Ok. The bad news is that you have some weaknesses. The good news is that you have time to work on them. Here's my take:

big public university - not so bad. I was from a big public university known mostly for sports and it wasn't a big problem. However, you need some other things to help distinguish you, like your GPA, MCAT, and research

GPA - sounds like you are on the right track. It will help to get your GPA as high as possible, and I don't think that is going to be a problem if you get up to 3.7 or so.

research - it seems like you have a lot of breadth of experience, so I would try to go for depth. I would spend your remaining time focusing on one thing and try to show continued commitment to one project. More than anything, a PhD requires that you stick around and keep working on the same thing no matter how unsuccessful it is. So, practice that.

clinical experience - doesn't look like you have any. Shadow a physician, volunteer at an ER, whatever. Just do something. I personally think it's stupid (because you can't possibly realize what you're getting into as a volunteer), but it's expected.

and finally..

MCAT - here is your chance to really shine. I know you said you're a bad test taker and all, but you've given up way too easily. Fortunately, you can easily improve your MCAT (like other standardized tests) score by practicing, studying, and implementing test-taking strategies. By preparing enough, you can raise your score anywhere from 5-10 points.

DO THIS NOW, not after you make a 27 and realize you should have prepared more. Take Princeton Review or Kaplan. I don't care how much it costs or if you don't have the money. Use the money you're saving on private school tuition or take a loan if you need it. That $2000 will be nothing in the long run, I promise, and those kids at big name schools would not hesitate before pulling the trigger, and neither should you. The biggest mistake you can make right now is to blow off this test. The difference between 34 and 29 is the difference between a good chance and no chance.

 

[mrsanator]

Just a couple of thoughts;

1. I can't speak to all institutions, but most I've talked to would say that it's GPA, then MCAT, then research that matters (all three obviously have to be pretty good).

I think ShiftyB is absolutely correct that you should invest whatever $$/time is necessary to get the MCAT score up to standards, and that 34 is a reasonable target. It sounds like your GPA will be in good shape by the time you apply, and you'll have a decent amount of research, so not getting in because of failure to prepare appropriately for the MCAT would be an unfortunate mistake. It will also be good to go ahead and work on the "bad test taker" thing, which is part of what the Kaplan/PR classes do. You'll be taking standardized tests all through medical school and for the remainder of your clinical career, and figuring out how to succeed at them now is worth the effort.

2. If you've done extensive clinical research working independently enrolling subjects, I'm not sure that shadowing is absolutely necessary. I had a job that was sounds identical to what you describe and this was viewed as one of the stronger parts of my application (any chance you're working at Duke? PM me if you are).

 

[Shifty B]

2. If you've done extensive clinical research working independently enrolling subjects, I'm not sure that shadowing is absolutely necessary. I had a job that was sounds identical to what you describe and this was viewed as one of the stronger parts of my application (any chance you're working at Duke? PM me if you are).

I kindof missed that part above somehow. I agree.

 

[staphkills]

Thank you guys for the great advice!

For clinical experience, I was hoping that my one summer volunteering at the free clinic would be ok since I spent around 500ish hours throughout the summer. I know that it’s better to have a long term commitment than one summer, but I’m not sure if I will have more time to do clinical volunteering (even though it’s great!) since I want to spend more time in research. I was hoping that my clinical research (enrolling patients…) would be able to be listed as clinical experience instead.

I definitely know that MCAT is important and I will make sure I have sufficient time to study for it. Since I’m planning on taking one or two years off, I will most likely take it during the end of my senior year or the early summer after my graduation. So I plan to have at least 3 months of hardcore studying before taking the MCAT.

For research, I will not plan on switching labs any more. I’ve settled into my genetics lab at my undergrad uni, so I will make sure to put all the effort I can to working on my senior thesis with my PI after this summer ends. I want to also work with a post doc in that lab so that I will be able to have a backup plan in case my senior thesis gets me nowhere. I am also planning on doing the same summer program that I’m doing now in the same lab next summer so hopefully I will be able to get some more depth. A small problem though: for my summer lab, the research fellow that I am currently working under will leave next summer, and I think I will be working on a completely different project so I’m not sure if there will be enough depth there.

How much is age an factor in the application process? I’ve been talking to a friend, who just graduated and will be taking two years off working in a lab. My friend was concerned that most mdphd students apply right off the bat and that she/he will be too old by that time.

With my current stats…lets say a 3.7, ok research, and a 32ish mcat, what mdphd programs are still reachable? I would love to go to UCSF or harvard’s MSTP program, but I’m pretty sure that would be more of a dream than a reality.

Also, for backup plans in case I can’t get into any good md/phd programs…. Since my ultimate goal is to get a faculty position, what would be the best course of action if I don’t get into a good md/phd program? Do MDs have a better chance for obtaining a faculty position than PhDs? How easy is it to apply to a MD/PhD program later on as an internal applicant?

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[DendWrite]

With my current stats…lets say a 3.7, ok research, and a 32ish mcat, what mdphd programs are still reachable? I would love to go to UCSF or harvard's MSTP program, but I'm pretty sure that would be more of a dream than a reality.

Sorry, I know that you brought up a lot of questions in your post, but I just wanted to address this aspect of it.

First off, you should know that with those numbers (though the MCAT is a little on the low side), you have a _chance_ at any MSTP program in the country. Of course another factor: come back after you've taken the MCAT so you really know what you have to work with. The MCAT is a beast, and a 32 may or may not be easy to pull off.

That being said, if you look at the very very top programs, those numbers alone are a limiting factor. Of course, very important additional factors are your depth and bredth of research experience which can mitigate MCAT/GPA (how much, though, is really just speculation).

The question that I want to as you is: why UCSF or Harvard? What you should look for in an MSTP program is a fantastic mentor. Those can be found at big-name schools, but they can be found at any school. And ask anyone who is currently in the PhD part of their program and they will tell you that they'd trade a good mentor who helps them out and is not malignant / a terrible personality / a jerk over a #1 ranked program any day. Because, in the end, your mentor will make/break your career (you mentioned being interested in academic medicine, so this is even more important). IF you really want to go into research for a career, mentorship during your PhD years is crucial (moreso than a big-name school).

That being said, if you know people at the schools you mentioned / have professors there you'd love to work with and have heard good things about, then that's great...you should apply, you never know what might happen. Again, like I said, the numbers are a limiting factor at top programs, but I think you have a good shot at a MSTP program. Keep up the research, try to do well on the MCAT and apply broadly. Don't let the allure of a big name keep you from applying to "lesser ranked" places that still have fantastic opportunities for grad students.

 

[staphkills]

Thanks for the reply Dendwrite!

From what I've experienced so far, it seems like there's better facility at better schools. I guess schools all have it's fair share of brilliant and nice faculity, but to me it seems like the top schools just have more of them.

Honestly, as of now, I would be very happy to be accepted to any MSTP program...since all of them have to be in high standard in order to get NIH funding.

Do any of you guys have any tips on backup options in case I am not able to get into a MSTP program? As of now, I don't think I would fully enjoy a career without clinical work, so I was thinking more of doing a MD and then reapplying to the MSTP program as a internal applicant. But if that doesn't work, what is the best way to enter academic medicine? As a MD with some post-doc training? or with a PhD?

Thanks!

 

[Neuronix]

I second ShiftyB's and mrsantor's advice. As I prep for Step 2 CK, the following piece resonates with me especially.

You'll be taking standardized tests all through medical school and for the remainder of your clinical career, and figuring out how to succeed at them now is worth the effort.

The MCAT is just one piece of the career puzzle. You will have Step 1, Step 2, and shelf exams to look forward to in medical school alone. Then you will have in-service exams, board certification, etc etc etc... It never ends! This is especially true for academic/research medicine which is even more competitive than your standard community to private practice type of track! The good news is: I got a 1220 on my SAT (out of 1800) and then knocked the MCAT out of the park. It can be done. You can improve. It takes a lot of preparation, but you can do it.

I also want you to get your mind off the Harvard/UCSF thing. Any MSTP is going to prepare you to be a strong investigator. Regardless, I'm not saying you have no chance at them, but chances are slim for anyone. They are probably the most competitive programs.

You also asked: "what is the best way to enter academic medicine?" We haven't figured that out on this forum. I don't think there is a right answer to that question. Academic medicine is very diverse, from 100% clinical to 10% clinical and all sorts of other mixes of duties (administrative, research, teaching). But if you want a majority research career, it is certainly possible to do that with a MD. You will have opportunities to get involved in research during medical school, during residency, and beyond. The NIH has Loan Repayment Programs to reduce your medical school debt if you do dedicate years of your life to research.

But I think this discussion is a bit premature. Keep doing research. Prepare well for the MCAT. Your GPA isn't great but it isn't bad. The *free crystal ball/tarot card/palm reading ballpark don't hold me to it but to give you a rough estimate* (tm) is that a 36+ MCAT score will probably break you into the top-20 USNews ranked schools. A 34+ probably top-40. That is of course assuming you keep up your research experiences and get all your other ducks in a row (essays, LORs, interviews, etc...).

Let us know your final MCAT score. Then we'll be able to better give you advice. But please please please take a prep course!

 

[DendWrite]

Do any of you guys have any tips on backup options in case I am not able to get into a MSTP program? As of now, I don't think I would fully enjoy a career without clinical work, so I was thinking more of doing a MD and then reapplying to the MSTP program as a internal applicant. But if that doesn't work, what is the best way to enter academic medicine? As a MD with some post-doc training? or with a PhD?

Thanks!

'
Nueronix gave great advice, which I'm basically echoing here, but just to say: my PI is an MD, and he does 100% research (literally no clinical work) and is a full professor. I don't think that a MSTP program (or even a PhD) is a prerequisite for getting into academic medicine. I'd say (and this is just my biased opinion) that an MD is better than a PhD for getting an academic medicine position (just based on my experience and people I've seen who are working in these positions). However, in terms of receiving grant funding, etc, it's often a wash as far as the numbers go...you could conceivably go into academic medicine (but not practice) with a PhD, and MD alone, or an MD/PhD. Don't feel like you're going to be limited to a certain career path by not attending an MSTP (so also, don't let that be the reason you decide on MSTP vs. straight-MD). There are definitely pros and cons to each, but in the end, they can get you to the same destination.

One other thing: an MD gives you a "cushion" in that you can always go over to your clinical duties if you find your research isn't working out or that it's just not for you. Unfortunately, a PhD doesn't really have that option, and it's definitely a "publish or perish" mentality, since your grant not only pays for your research, but also for your food, house payment, etc. (plus a small amount from your employer, but if you aren't funded, chances are they'll stop funding you as well).