Going to grad school before vet school?

[lcarter103]

Hi there.

I am applying to veterinary school for the 2nd time this year (WCVM in Canada), and pondering what to do if I am rejected this year. One option is starting a M.Sc. in zoology in September. My goal would still be to go to veterinary school, and I would apply next year as well, a year into my masters. My hope would be that my graduate grades would bring up my GPA, and also the ad. comm. would be happy that I had some research experience. The downside, I think, would be that that ad. comm. might think I wasn't 100% sure about going into vet med (since I was doing something else instead), or that they would think I was uncommited, since if I did get into vet school next year, I would be abandoning my M.Sc. uncompleted. Needless to say, I really hope I won't have to even consider this option, and get accepted this year, but just in case, have any of you got any wisdom regarding this issue?

Hope this all made sense, thanks in advance,

Leonie

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[Joslin]

Hi there.

I am applying to veterinary school for the 2nd time this year (WCVM in Canada), and pondering what to do if I am rejected this year. One option is starting a M.Sc. in zoology in September. My goal would still be to go to veterinary school, and I would apply next year as well, a year into my masters. My hope would be that my graduate grades would bring up my GPA, and also the ad. comm. would be happy that I had some research experience. The downside, I think, would be that that ad. comm. might think I wasn't 100% sure about going into vet med (since I was doing something else instead), or that they would think I was uncommited, since if I did get into vet school next year, I would be abandoning my M.Sc. uncompleted. Needless to say, I really hope I won't have to even consider this option, and get accepted this year, but just in case, have any of you got any wisdom regarding this issue?

Hope this all made sense, thanks in advance,

Leonie

Many schools will tell you that it looks bad if you start a Master's without the intention of finishing it, because it seems like you don't finish things. On the other hand, not getting one means you've been out of school for a while, and have nothing to fall back on if they say no again. I am currently going through my 3rd round of applications, and could be finishing up a Master's right now because it's taken so long. I spent most of my time trying to get more experience, but now some schools are going to frown upon how long I've been out of school. I would personally say go for the degree, because you can't rely on getting into a vet school, especially if you've applied multiple times. Some Master's programs are only 1 year, and it might be best to try to find something like that. That way, they don't pass you over while you're in the middle of the program. Tufts, for instance, has a 1 year Master's in Public Health degree that's ony a year.

This is just my opinion, you should probably still consult admissions.

 

[adenovirus]

Leonie

I was in a similar situation back in 2001 when I finished my undergrad. I wanted so badly to go right into vet school, but had retaken 6 classes or so before I graduated from my undergrad and the adcoms were of course averaging my grades together and lowering my gpa everytime they did so that I was really not competitive (2.96 cum. gpa after averages). Luckily, I was able to start a veterinary pathobiology MS program in molecular virology that gave me opportunity to i.) get my grades up and ii.) do research that I really enjoyed.

I didn't apply to vet school again during my first year of the MS program because I really wanted to see my project through and finish what I started. I, like you, didn't want to deal with interviewers questioning my sticktoitiveness and character. I increased my gpa pretty well over the 2 years (although I became extremely focused on my research and thus didn't receive straight A's like I probably should have), published 2 research articles in cancer gene therapy (thus my SDN handle, adenovirus) as primary author. I was still lacking in veterinary experience (~200 hrs) and my gpa was still not great, so when I applied again I received an interview but not acceptance.

I was told by the adcom chair of my in-state vet school that for admission purposes, an MS degree in animal science (as opposed to my molecular virology lab research) might have gotten me accepted after the MS was complete. Armed with that rather shocking news, I then focused on getting veterinary experience (volunteering a few nights a week at an emergency clinic) after working days as a research scientist. In hindsight I should have taken post bacc. classes instead of working full time, but I am in my late 20's, was recntly married and was sick of renting--we wanted a home!

I applied again, and didn't even get an interview!

I am now presently just coming off of 1 year of classes (during 2005) as a post bacc. student (all A's) and have received 2 vet school interviews (1 in-state and one out of state) and an MD interview (...and am still waiting to hear from a handful of vet schools). I have a strong feeling I will be accepted somewhere this year.

The long and the short of it is, vet schools seem to care mostly about gpa and vet experience (at least hands on experience) and not whether you have an additional degree, and therefore, I recommend you take the route that enables you to increase your gpa the most (assuming you have sufficient animal and vet experience). This may mean to enroll immediately into post bacc. classes. However, the post bacc. classes won't make you nearly as marketable later down the road if you decide to stop pursuing vet school or medicine in general. The MS degree has stand-alone value and I don't regret doing it because it helped me land a job in the pharmaceutical industry.

Adenovirus

 

[lcarter103]

Thank you Joslin and Adenovirus for your responses;

I guess the bottom line is that I would not be getting my M.Sc. with the intention of using it later; i.e. I would just be getting it in hopes it would help me get into vet school, which is my ultimate goal. And the idea I'm getting is that it probably wouldn't actually help all that much! I think I have a fairly decent application now, a 3.5 cumulative GPA with my best year a 3.73 (WCVM gives the highest weight to your best full-time year), and quite a bit of veterinary/animal experience. And I got an interview and a fairly high ranking after the interview the last time I applied. So, considering all that, and you guys' advice, I think if I don't get in this year, the best plan may be to enrol in university as an unclassified student, take some graduate level zoology/biology courses (that hopefully give me the opportunity to do some research), and also work on increasing my experience. That way, I am not giving the ad. comm. an opportunity to question my character or what my ultimate goal is and how commited I am to it, but I am also getting to boost my GPA a bit and show that I can succeed in graduate level courses.

Thanks for helping me sort all this out, and best of luck to both of you!

Leonie

 

[meyao]

Leonie,

I strongly disagree with the idea that getting a Master's will make you look unfocused or less serious about vet school. Look at any vet journal -- how many of the names are NOT followed by "DVM, MS" or "DVM, PhD"?

Depending on the field you choose, it can make you look VERY focused. Obviously, you should probably not go out and get your Master's in English literature. But if you do it in a field that you can legitimately tie into veterinary medicine, imagine how interesting and compelling your candidacy will be to admissions committees.

I have read many posts (on the About.com website, at least) by vets and vet stduents who said if they had to do it all over again, they would have done a joint DVM/MPH. The need for vets with public health training is huge and will only continue to grow with all the crises (avian flu, bioterrorism, etc.) out there. And speaking of joint degrees, vet schools are offering all kinds of programs: DVM/PhD, DVM/MBA, etc. So what does that tell you about schools' attitudes toward Master's degrees?

Adenovirus, I'm stunned by what the ad com told you about animal science being a better bet than pathology/virology. There's a saying that any subject that requires the word "science" to define it is anything but. (Political "science", for example.) Not to dump on animal science, but it's pretty bland next to virology and cancer research, not to mention two published articles (and lead author... how common is THAT for a Master's student?!) That ad com is pretty myopic, if you ask me. Most good vet schools would be impressed with your choice and your research. Tufts, for example, actually encourages its students to pursue research and write a thesis during the DVM program.

Anyway, if you do decide to take graduate level classes to boost your GPA, you may as well spend the money for the Master's degree. At the end of the year (or two), you will have a degree, which holds far more weight and puts you in a higher pay grade for most research jobs, which you could consider as a Plan B, or, more likely, as a way to earn some precious cash in the summer before you start vet school!

Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[lcarter103]

Thanks for your point of view, meyao. I haven't 100% decided one way or the other yet, so I appreciate your input. I am going to ask the ad. comm. at the wcvm directly how they generally feel about it, and go from that. I guess there's a lot to think about!

Leonie,

I strongly disagree with the idea that getting a Master's will make you look unfocused or less serious about vet school. Look at any vet journal -- how many of the names are NOT followed by "DVM, MS" or "DVM, PhD"?

Depending on the field you choose, it can make you look VERY focused. Obviously, you should probably not go out and get your Master's in English literature. But if you do it in a field that you can legitimately tie into veterinary medicine, imagine how interesting and compelling your candidacy will be to admissions committees.

I have read many posts (on the About.com website, at least) by vets and vet stduents who said if they had to do it all over again, they would have done a joint DVM/MPH. The need for vets with public health training is huge and will only continue to grow with all the crises (avian flu, bioterrorism, etc.) out there. And speaking of joint degrees, vet schools are offering all kinds of programs: DVM/PhD, DVM/MBA, etc. So what does that tell you about schools' attitudes toward Master's degrees?

Adenovirus, I'm stunned by what the ad com told you about animal science being a better bet than pathology/virology. There's a saying that any subject that requires the word "science" to define it is anything but. (Political "science", for example.) Not to dump on animal science, but it's pretty bland next to virology and cancer research, not to mention two published articles (and lead author... how common is THAT for a Master's student?!) That ad com is pretty myopic, if you ask me. Most good vet schools would be impressed with your choice and your research. Tufts, for example, actually encourages its students to pursue research and write a thesis during the DVM program.

Anyway, if you do decide to take graduate level classes to boost your GPA, you may as well spend the money for the Master's degree. At the end of the year (or two), you will have a degree, which holds far more weight and puts you in a higher pay grade for most research jobs, which you could consider as a Plan B, or, more likely, as a way to earn some precious cash in the summer before you start vet school!

Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[adenovirus]

Meyao,

I agree with you that having research experience is a factor in the ad com's decision, but if your gpa is low and/or you don't have any vet experiences on your resume...these latter "issues" should be addressed first by the applicant before pursuing a 2 year degree focused 80% on hard research and 15-20% on classes/grades.

In my case, my advisor and my advisor committee set deadlines frequently and my experiments came first and foremost. My classes took a backseat a lot of times and so now, in hindsight, I wished I could have put classes first (but then the thesis project would likely have suffered and/or I would still be there in the lab!).

Just be careful when selecting an MS program if the real reason you are doing it is to get your grades up, because sometimes these, as you put it, myopic committees, are the ones you will be applying to, as was the case with me. There is lots of time to do great and meaningful research once you are accepted!

Adenovirus

 

[meyao]

I totally agree that grades and vet experience are very important and the pursuit of a high GPA and experience should not be subordinated to a full-time research project. But a lot of Master's programs are coursework Master's, and most two-year programs (that I'm aware of, at least) are coursework the first year and then more coursework as well as (sometimes optional) research project in the second. A research project without good grades or vet experience won't get you far in admissions... it's true.

 

[skibum]

Some schools offer masters programs for people who want to pursue an advanced degree, but need more coursework in the area they want to focus on. These are one year programs tailored for people who are specifically seeking a masters to prepare them for an MD, a DVM, a PhD, etc. CSU has one (it's referred to as the Master's Plan B). I think a masters is a good way to prove to the adcom that you are serious about school and can hack the coursework. It is also good to have a backup plan in the event that you don't get into vet school. Not trying to be negative, just realistic.

 

[birdvet2006]

Here's another idea: if you really want to go to vet school, then why wait? You've already spent over a year applying and not getting accepted. If you apply to a school like Ross or St. George, you're almost guaranteed to get in and you can start any time of year (at least at Ross). Ross has a good reputation and will make you a vet! Now that there's the PAVE option (vs. the ECFVG clinical competency exam), it should be easier than ever to practice in N. America soon after graduation.

 

[lcarter103]

Hi Cindy,

Trust me, I would LOVE to go overseas to study, particularly to the UK or Australia/New Zealand. I am extremely jealous of you being over there in Glasgow! The 2 huge problems with this are:
1)the cost. In Canada, tuition for a year of vet school tends to be around $7000-8000. For overseas, I would be looking at more like $30000, plus the cost of living, which is a HUGE difference! And in Canada, I'd be lucky to start out in practice making $50000 a year, so those are huge loans to pay off.
2)my personal situation- I essentially am common-law married and I think it's highly unlikely my b.f. could find a job overseas. However, even if he could, or even if we decided we could hack spending 4+ years apart, the money factor is the main issue. That is just A LOT of money to spend; we just bought a house, and it would essentially be like getting a mortgage on a 2nd one! But trust me, if money was no option, I'd be overseas in a heartbeat, and loving every second of it!

So right now, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I get into my school here this year....

Thanks for the advice though,

Leonie

Here's another idea: if you really want to go to vet school, then why wait? You've already spent over a year applying and not getting accepted. If you apply to a school like Ross or St. George, you're almost guaranteed to get in and you can start any time of year (at least at Ross). Ross has a good reputation and will make you a vet! Now that there's the PAVE option (vs. the ECFVG clinical competency exam), it should be easier than ever to practice in N. America soon after graduation.