Going to pharmacy school after earning Ph.D.?

[jmg32]

Hi, all. New to the forums and have a question about going to pharmacy school. I have completed a M.S. and Ph.D. (both in Microbiology with cancer-related research) as well as nearly 3 years of postdoctoral research. For various reasons, I am considering pursuing pharmacy school. My basic question is this: What benefit, if any, is there to me having completed a M.S. and Ph.D.? Or is there no difference than someone starting this process with a bachelor's degree?

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[Thestrugglez]

For one thing, a lot of schools may not accept your prerequisite courses since I'm assuming you took stuff like OChem/GenChem/GenBiol over 10 years ago. I'd pay close attention to each schools specific criteria and contact the ones you're interested in personally to make sure.

Not much benefit I can think of, other than the fact that it shows you can handle upper level science coursework (I could be wrong. Please correct me if I am).

 

[oldstock]

For one thing, a lot of schools may not accept your prerequisite courses since I'm assuming you took stuff like OChem/GenChem/GenBiol over 10 years ago. I'd pay close attention to each schools specific criteria and contact the ones you're interested in personally to make sure.

Not much benefit I can think of, other than the fact that it shows you can handle upper level science coursework (I could be wrong. Please correct me if I am).

You are correct about the time limit on prereq coursework (some have 5 yr cutoff, some 6, some 7, some 10) but forgot or did not mention the part that those time limits on prereq do not apply if the person has taken advanced science coursework recently and/or continuously worked in science-related fields.

And that makes perfect sense. It would be ridiculous if a school asked the OP, who's got a PhD in Microbio and 3 yrs of post doc work under his belt, to retake Gen Bio/Gen Chem/Gen O chem etc again. That would also be silly for the OP to apply to that school. I would simply forget that school.

The majority of schools do not have time limit on prereq and I know this personally as I did the research, applied and got accepted to many schools (including a top 15 school according the latest US News ranking) with my older than dirt prereq this past application cycle (class of 2018).

Hi, all. New to the forums and have a question about going to pharmacy school. I have completed a M.S. and Ph.D. (both in Microbiology with cancer-related research) as well as nearly 3 years of postdoctoral research. For various reasons, I am considering pursuing pharmacy school. My basic question is this: What benefit, if any, is there to me having completed a M.S. and Ph.D.? Or is there no difference than someone starting this process with a bachelor's degree?

I think your PhD and MS degrees are great advantages for your application. It is way better to accept your stats than 2.0s undergrad GPA and 10s - 20s PCAT percentile, which got in a lot these days including at top schools.

But your going PharmD after a PhD is a bit unusual imho. Usually people who already got a PharmD (or BS of pharmacy), go PhD. Not the other way around.

If I were you, I would do a MD. I would imagine that a MD degree would benefit and complement your PhD degree way more than your loading on huge debts for a PharmD degree 🙂

 

[owlbright]

Yeah, Go for MD/DO!

 

[jmg32]

Thanks for the tips and insight! I guess that's about what I figured but was maybe hoping having a Ph.D. would count for something 🙂 My primary reason for considering pharmacy school is the state of research funding these days. Things are always volatile in research and my wife and I are wanting to settle down with a family and all that. Ph.D.s are great, but it's not a marketable skill in and of itself.

 

[oldstock]

Thanks for the tips and insight! I guess that's about what I figured but was maybe hoping having a Ph.D. would count for something 🙂 My primary reason for considering pharmacy school is the state of research funding these days. Things are always volatile in research and my wife and I are wanting to settle down with a family and all that. Ph.D.s are great, but it's not a marketable skill in and of itself.

Is it really hard getting a college teaching position ??

anyway, I think you might need to research a bit more about saturation in pharmacy now and at least 4 years from now when you graduate from pharmacy school, and put and consider those data in your equation of risks vs rewards and/or ROI. Demand and supply will ensure future pharmacy jobs to become harder to get in general as market is stagnant or even being cut down yet more and more pharmacy schools are opening up pumping more and even more PharmDs every year. And you will certainly have huge debts (avg 150K these days) for your PharmD degree. Not to mention you might have to do a residency (1-3 yrs in length) after your PharmD to get a job.

You do not sound like loving pharmacy too much but prob going after the high pay in pharmacy (and there is nothing wrong with going after high-paying job as you still need to work to put foods on the table). Compared to pharmacy, medicine is a better ROI time-wise and money-wise imho (if you can do it). Medicine would also have things like student loans forgiven programs which are unheard of in pharmacy.

There are also plenty of other jobs that are hot now, which do not require you to load on hundred thousands of dollars on student loans or invest a lot of time in study. For example, computers. One of my friends, who is a software engineer, is making 160K now. And he has no student loan debts now as he already paid his little student loan back to Uncle Sam like 10 years ago 🙂

 

[kittycatblues]

Yes, your PhD will count for a lot. You will be sought after because the know you can handle the coursework. Do make sure to have the prerequisites done, but don't worry about how long ago you took them. Do personally contact pharmacy schools you want to apply to and let them know of your interest. Have a good reason why you want to go into Pharmacy and ideally get at least some shadowing experience.

 

[sdn24]

I was inquiring about this as well. I'm currently enrolled in a PhD program but I was thinking about doing pharmacy school once I finish. Seems like I'll be in school forever but I know that having both will be good especially with the job outlook. With my PhD I know that I could possibly teach or go into the industry like working for a pharmaceutical company. With a PharmD I could either practice as a pharmacist (which is looking slim based on the saturation within the field right now) or go academia.... Having both will allow me to increase my options and job security down the road. Any advice? Really doesnt matter about the money BUT I would love to make a nice amount doing something that I love until i retire in my 60s

 

[owlbright]

I've seen all of following scenarios:

MD -> PhD
PhD-> MD
Phd-> DDS
PharmD -> PhD
PhD -> PharmD

I guess there is no right or wrong and everyone has it's own reasons.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

MD, DDS is a much better bet.

PharmD research is still, for lack of a better word, a novelty. This means the NIH isn't going to provide nowhere near the amount of funding that an MD or DDS research student gets.

It might have been a decent idea 10 years ago, but it is risky to borrow another 6 figures for a degree which provides skills that can easily be replaced by automation.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Woops! Nowhere ---> anywhere

 

[Doc Hawaii]

I had a PhD, turned down an excellent post-doc opportunity, took missing pre-reqs, went to pharmacy school, and am now a pharmacy resident. My pharmacy school had me re-take a few classes, like stats...lol. They also did not consider any of my graduate classes nor GPA (they did not accept human physio, genetics, etc). One school wanted to disallow most of my undergraduate classes because they were too old...I wonder how long ago Professor X took their classes, yet they still lecture pharmacy students...

What advantages do you have? Your knowledge of micro, stats, experimental design, public speaking, grant+manuscript writing, and critical thinking skills, to name a few.

Will you be a better outpatient pharmacist? No.
Will you be more competitive in industry, FDA, CDC, fellowships, residencies? Yes.
Will you be paid more for holding a joint degree? Probably, no.
Will you be respected more by MD/DOs? Depends, but generally no.
What is the average lifespan of an industry PhD? It's 5 yrs in SoCal...and they constantly lay off.

With a clinical license you are paid much more, and you do not necessarily need to move across the country (or world) for a non-tenure, poverty-pay position. Doctorate-level scientists are a dime-a-dozen, and you are literally competing with the brightest people from around the world. Dangling an H-1 visa over that foreign post-doc's head is VERY effective motivation to work endless hours while abuse is rained on their heads daily. Eventually everyone loses their grants, no matter how smart, and then you are clipped by the university. I use the analogy of the Maffia-there are many parallels.

Ask: How many unemployed physicians have you met? How many pharmacists? Being at the top of the healthcare pyramid is a beautiful thing, as you know what runs downhill.

 

[Thestrugglez]

With a clinical license you are paid much more, and you do not necessarily need to move across the country (or world) for a non-tenure, poverty-pay position. Doctorate-level scientists are a dime-a-dozen, and you are literally competing with the brightest people from around the world. Dangling an H-1 visa over that foreign post-doc's head is VERY effective motivation to work endless hours while abuse is rained on their heads daily. Eventually everyone loses their grants, no matter how smart, and then you are clipped by the university. I use the analogy of the Mafia-there are many parallels.

This.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

I had a PhD, turned down an excellent post-doc opportunity, took missing pre-reqs, went to pharmacy school, and am now a pharmacy resident. My pharmacy school had me re-take a few classes, like stats...lol. They also did not consider any of my graduate classes nor GPA (they did not accept human physio, genetics, etc). One school wanted to disallow most of my undergraduate classes because they were too old...I wonder how long ago Professor X took their classes, yet they still lecture pharmacy students...

What advantages do you have? Your knowledge of micro, stats, experimental design, public speaking, grant+manuscript writing, and critical thinking skills, to name a few.

Will you be a better outpatient pharmacist? No.
Will you be more competitive in industry, FDA, CDC, fellowships, residencies? Yes.
Will you be paid more for holding a joint degree? Probably, no.
Will you be respected more by MD/DOs? Depends, but generally no.
What is the average lifespan of an industry PhD? It's 5 yrs in SoCal...and they constantly lay off.

With a clinical license you are paid much more, and you do not necessarily need to move across the country (or world) for a non-tenure, poverty-pay position. Doctorate-level scientists are a dime-a-dozen, and you are literally competing with the brightest people from around the world. Dangling an H-1 visa over that foreign post-doc's head is VERY effective motivation to work endless hours while abuse is rained on their heads daily. Eventually everyone loses their grants, no matter how smart, and then you are clipped by the university. I use the analogy of the Maffia-there are many parallels.

Ask: How many unemployed physicians have you met? How many pharmacists? Being at the top of the healthcare pyramid is a beautiful thing, as you know what runs downhill.

Soon, pharmacists will be a dime a dozen...
Thank the *****s at ACPE for making accreditation standards so low.

 

[Doc Hawaii]

And there's serious discussion at ASHP about programs starting PGY-3s...

Which medical residencies take 3 years? FM, IM, Peds, Phys Med...

 

[oldstock]

And there's serious discussion at ASHP about programs starting PGY-3s...

Which medical residencies take 3 years? FM, IM, Peds, Phys Med...

what can we do if we are in pharmacy ?? the more competition for job there is, the more they will require of you to do to get a job.... Thank you very much ACCP and ACPE for all this **** !!!!

the article posted earlier by @PharmDCandidate2014 is a good place to start for serious pre-pharmers...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/

we should choose a career or profession with our hearts AND also with our HEADS... decisions without one or the other will usually lead to regrets and/or disasters...

Times are really changing right now. Automation is SLOWLY creeping in to the retail setting, and it's only a matter of time before it becomes a significant player. Having said that, your concerns/questions are absolutely valid:

All I can say is: shadow, shadow, and shadow. If this means getting technician work at $10/hour for a few months, DO IT. By the way, please don't attend pharmacy technician school - the certification test does not require it! Talk to the pharmacists and see what their opinions are on the field. Chances are, they'll tell you it's all a game of musical chairs, hot potato, whatever you wanna call it. But, if that's the environment you thrive in - to each his or her own.

Not sure what the salary will look like, but I can assure you 6 figures will be a number of the past. SIMPLE economics dictates this: supply/demand/equilibrium. As the SUPPLY of pharmacists INCREASE, by A LOT, with decreased demand, the equilibrium will shift toward the LOWER-INCOME side. If you want to get that 6 figure salary, I'm pretty sure you'll have to pursue the residency (PGY-1/PGY-2/fellowship) training to obtain that really rare clinical job, but with that amount of years invested...wouldn't it be better if you just went to medical school? Those 7 years are exactly the same number of years that a physician would pursue if interested in Internal Medicine, Family medicine, or something similar along those lines.

If you want articles that aren't considerably biased, try ones written for the NIH. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/ is somewhere good to start. I find that the Pharmacy Times gives off a rather optimistic outlook of the future rather than being realistic and using hard-data to support their stand.

Keep posting questions for all of us - it helps us all get a better insight believe it or not! Good luck 🙂