Good University Based PsyD other than Rutgers/Baylor

[Jobless Ph.D.]

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I know this is the "we hate FSPS PsyD programs" board (and for very good reasons!). I also know that debt to income ratio is a problem for our field for PsyDs (and PhDs who weren't fully funded). I know that Argosy/Alliant/SPP's that take 50+ students have a huge negative impact on the internship crisis. I know the standard answers are "if you want a PsyD - get an MSW or do a lot of research and do a Ph.D. instead, unless you can go to Rutgers/Baylor". Phew - I think that's most of the standard arguments that I don't want this thread to turn into.

NOW - if a student does want to go for a University-based PsyD and is fully aware that it will not likely be funded and there will be debt involved or someone is going to have to pay a lot of money for it (let's just say they have a wealthy family for the sake of argument). What are the programs that would be considered "good" and "reputable", that generally produce high quality clinicians who have good match rates and EPPP scores and end up with a large percentage of employees in stable jobs similar to what PhDs get (other than research/tenure track acedemia of course). I am genuinely curious about what programs people would conisder "ok". As a PhD (if you are one) - do you have colleagues who have PsyD's? What programs did they come from?

I am asking because I am trying to mentor some people to whom obviously the first line of advice would be "try to get into a fully funded Ph.D.", but just might not be able to make the cut - (as in, don't necessarily have strong research interests, experience, or aptitude, and it's going to be hard to be convincing to POI's that they would be a good fit, but do really want a doctoral level training).

Thank you.

 

[WisNeuro]

EPPP and APPIC match rates are both publicly available. If either figure is below 80%, I say stay away.

 

[WisNeuro]

Also, there's that PhD research misconception again. Plenty of PhD programs where you can do primarily clinical work as long as you do the minimum thesis and dissertation work. As far as the "not being able to cut it" part. The actual good PsyD programs are fairly selective as well. Maybe these students would be served by trying out a terminal masters and seeing if they can hack it. If not, being a doctor isn't for everyone.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

Hmm I found a link in a different thread that seemed like it had a link that listed those rates for multiple programs, but then the link was null. Would they have to go to each different school's website to look up these numbers, or is there a more recent link with the info all in one place?

 

[WisNeuro]

APPIC has a list of the match rates for like the past decade by prgram, and AATBS has EPPP pass rates for the past 5 years I believe.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

GPA/GRE are really high, clinical experience is far above the average from a very reputable site - BUT never conducted indendent research, published or presented outside the setting - could maybbbbee convince POI's that their clinical work is closely related to the POI's research or something like that.

Are Ph.D. counseling programs as research focused as clinical ones? What might be the factors that would encourage someone to pursue Counseling versus Clinical Ph.D. - and how comparable is funding?

(I am asking all of this having completed a clinical Ph.D. - so the last time I looked into this stuff was wayyy back in 2005-ish.)

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

APPIC has a list of the match rates for like the past decade by prgram, and AATBS has EPPP pass rates for the past 5 years I believe.

Awesome - That's where I can tell them to start their own search - I am NOT going to do all the work for them 😉

 

[WisNeuro]

As a point of reference, I was accepted into a clinical PhD program at a research 1 university with no presentations or publications. My POI knew full well that I had career aspirations of being a clinician. Some PhD programs may want you to be all research, but there are many that allow you to focus clinically.

As to the counseling vs clinical bit, no idea about that thought process. I will tell you that clinical is looked upon much more favorably when it comes to internship/postdoc selection at the sites I've been at.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

That's helpful WisNeuro - it's good to hear your experience. I assume this would be the case in more balanced programs, which it appears more and more programs are becoming. This is all happening in an area where, "If you want to be a clinician - Don't come to this school" is not uncommonly advertised. Geographic flexibility may be important here.

 

[WisNeuro]

That's helpful WisNeuro - it's good to hear your experience. I assume this would be the case in more balanced programs, which it appears more and more programs are becoming. This is all happening in an area where, "If you want to be a clinician - Don't come to this school" is not uncommonly advertised. Geographic flexibility may be important here.

I would agree there. I imagine they will be able to find a great fit, but much more likely if they want to move. Fact of the matter, if this is something they are really passionate about, they will make the sacrifice.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't know where I'm remembering this from, but I want to say Indiana State's Psy.D. program may be pretty good. Nova Southeastern and PGSP have some students with good outcomes for their Psy.D. programs, but given their huge class sizes, there's a LOT of intra-cohort variability, and I don't know how reflective those students are of the "typical" case.

Oh, and just to make it an n=2, like WisNeuro, I landed in a fairly research-oriented R1 with only a couple years of RA experience and no pubs/posters/presentations to my name. Apparently, my advisor just really liked me. Thus, it's of course possible to get in without any productivity, although I'd always recommend folks try to at least get their names on a poster or two if at all possible.

 

[cara susanna]

LaSalle is another.

 

[Pragma]

Oh, and just to make it an n=2, like WisNeuro, I landed in a fairly research-oriented R1 with only a couple years of RA experience and no pubs/posters/presentations to my name. Apparently, my advisor just really liked me. Thus, it's of course possible to get in without any productivity, although I'd always recommend folks try to at least get their names on a poster or two if at all possible.

Make that n=3. I had a pub in the works, but nothing "in press" by the time I interviewed. I do think that the competition has gotten stiffer since I started school several years back, but never rule it out. If you are the right fit and show promise, I think it is possible.

 

[shumshum81]

I'm an Indiana State PsyD student on internship this year. Tuition remission and teaching or RA jobs for all first and second years makes this a very affordable program. Last year 10/10 who applied to internships all matched APA accredited. Many end up at VAs or state hospitals (I'm a CMHC person myself). Not all the faculty while I was there were amazing, but I can't praise the DCT or the clinic support staff enough. Plus we are a practitioner/scientist model which might appeal to you if you think scholar programs are too soft on research skills. Can't comment on EPPP pass rate off the top of my head, but of the alums I know this has not been a problem at all.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

Thanks for the ongoing input - so . . . in answer to the original question: Rutgers, Baylor, Indiana State (which sounds great), La Salle, Denver, Roosevelt (I'm throwing the last two in because I was reading about them in other threads). Others?

And I have an n=3 for lack of research experience not prohibiting acceptance to PhDs for highly qualified candidates 🙂

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

http://www.unc.edu/~mjp1970/Internship Outcomes.pdf

Is this accurate? Is Widener's APA match rate really 100%?

 

[LPPSYD]

http://www.unc.edu/~mjp1970/Internship Outcomes.pdf

Is this accurate? Is Widener's APA match rate really 100%?

This is accurate. I believe it's due to the fact that they have a captive internship consortium that is APA-accredited.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Thanks for the ongoing input - so . . . in answer to the original question: Rutgers, Baylor, Indiana State (which sounds great), La Salle, Denver, Roosevelt (I'm throwing the last two in because I was reading about them in other threads). Others?

And I have an n=3 for lack of research experience not prohibiting acceptance to PhDs for highly qualified candidates 🙂

The only problem I have with Denver is that it is super dooper expensive.

 

[Marissa4usa]

I don't know much about this particular program but I have two friends who are/were at Univ of Hartford and really liked it. Their APA match rate seems to be in the 80's for most years over the past 8 years and it's pretty "reasonably" priced (for a PsyD program) at $24K/year.

 

[Sanman]

Loyola in Maryland and FIT have decent reputations. The Virginia Consortium is now a PhD program, but still clinically focused I believe. I like Widener in PA due to the captive APA accredited internship.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

Just FYI, Widener's captive internship is half time over 2 years. That has its pro's and con's.

Also, I question if LaSalle should be on this list. Not great/common funding, not great EPPP pass rates, and similar match rates to many of the Philly PsyD schools.

 

[cara susanna]

I see your point about the other factors, but I looked and their EPPP pass rate is listed as 91%. Isn't that pretty good?

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

cara, the link WisNeuro posted didn't have them that high, and that's the info I was going on. If they are at a 91% I would say that is excellent, but I wonder if its accurate.

 

[WisNeuro]

cara, the link WisNeuro posted didn't have them that high, and that's the info I was going on. If they are at a 91% I would say that is excellent, but I wonder if its accurate.

They're at 91%, were you thinking of the APPIC match rate?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

IIRC the "average" pass rate is 75-80%, though it is not a standard distribution. I'd say at least 75-85%.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

They're at 91%, were you thinking of the APPIC match rate?

Well, clearly I'm lame and misread the grid. haha. Sorry for the confusion, all.

 

[futureapppsy2]

This could just be me, but I find the question of "If debt/money isn't an issue, what PsyD programs are good?" kind of useless, in that it's not applicable to a vast majority of applicants. Very, very few students have wealthy family members or other means to make a triple digit debt just disappear (and counting on the public service loan repayment program is risky for a number of reasons), so I find this question about as applicable as "If money is no object, what car should I buy?"--a good way to get viewpoints on good but costly cars, perhaps, but not a situation most car buyers will ever find themselves in. So, I'm not really sure how useful the question asked by the OP is, honestly.

To answer the question, though, I've been impressed with the Wright State PsyD grads I know and the debt can be at manageable levels if you get funding or in-state tuition.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

This could just be me, but I find the question of "If debt/money isn't an issue, what PsyD programs are good?" kind of useless, in that it's not applicable to a vast majority of applicants. Very, very few students have wealthy family members or other means to make a triple digit debt just disappear (and counting on the public service loan repayment program is risky for a number of reasons), so I find this question about as applicable as "If money is no object, what car should I buy?"--a good way to get viewpoints on good but costly cars, perhaps, but not a situation most car buyers will ever find themselves in. So, I'm not really sure how useful the question asked by the OP is, honestly.

To answer the question, though, I've been impressed with the Wright State PsyD grads I know and the debt can be at manageable levels if you get funding or in-state tuition.

Well, since I am the OP, and the students I am speaking of are indeed from incredibly wealthy families willing to finance their education (which I am very jealous and bitter about - must be nice, as I am someone with a Ph.D. who was funded for 3 years, yet had to take out loans to live on b/c no stipend, and I am deeply depressed about my current debt situation).

The question remains valid and useful for me. Good to know about Wright State.

 

[Sanman]

Well, since I am the OP, and the students I am speaking of are indeed from incredibly wealthy families willing to finance their education (which I am very jealous and bitter about - must be nice, as I am someone with a Ph.D. who was funded for 3 years, yet had to take out loans to live on b/c no stipend, and I am deeply depressed about my current debt situation).

The question remains valid and useful for me. Good to know about Wright State.

Having attended a program with tuition remission and a stipend, but still having loans due to living expenses being above my stipend, I do wonder if a PsyD program would be comparable debt-wise if you could live at home while attending the program. I am curious to run the numbers on this as I had a few decent programs near me could have allowed me to live at home.

 

[Ror711]

I am a current 3rd year PsyD student at University of Denver. I did my MA there prior to my PsyD and believe I've received a great education. Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the program. I've been in the school for almost 5 years now, and am interviewing for internships right now. Many of the sites that have offered interviews are very competitive, which I think speaks in part to the education the program has provided me. Yes, the cost is high, but can often be mitigated via scholarships, GTAs, etc.

 

[tchibur]

Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions about the PsyD program at Florida Institute of Technology.

 

[pukaface]

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[ariagirlno1]

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[WisNeuro]

LaSalle's 63% match rate is a little concerning though.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

LaSalle's 63% match rate is a little concerning though.

I mean, I guess you can just make it work with that percent and would have to do what you can in order to shine, pass, and match.

 

[PsySeeker]

Indiana University of Pennsylvania (IUP) is an excellent university based clinical Psy.D program as well. I am presently a student there. Feel free to PM with questions. 86% APA match rate last year, 93% APPIC. EPPP pass rate has been 100% the last several years, something they are quite proud of. The locale isn't great, it's tough to get in (which is good, but bad for OP because they do care about research interest), and the funding has been rougher than normal due to state cuts. www.iup.edu/page.aspx?id=116029 for data through 2013.

 

[psydmej]

I'd love any more info you could give on Hartford. Just got in but not sure.

 

[calimich]

GPA/GRE are really high, clinical experience is far above the average from a very reputable site - BUT never conducted indendent research, published or presented outside the setting - could maybbbbee convince POI's that their clinical work is closely related to the POI's research or something like that.

Are Ph.D. counseling programs as research focused as clinical ones? What might be the factors that would encourage someone to pursue Counseling versus Clinical Ph.D. - and how comparable is funding?

(I am asking all of this having completed a clinical Ph.D. - so the last time I looked into this stuff was wayyy back in 2005-ish.)

It seems that no one has addressed this part of your question, I'll try. I am a 5th year phd student in an APA accredited counseling psych program and have successfully matched to a very competitive APA accredited university counseling center internship in California.

For me, when deciding between clinical and counseling, one factor was the origins of the specializations and how they diverged slightly from each other. From APA's Division 17 website --

"The differences between counseling and clinical psychologists are rooted in the history of each specialty, which has influenced the focus and emphasis of the training they receive. Both counseling and clinical psychologists are trained to provide counseling and psychotherapy. In order to understand the traditions and orientation of each specialty, it may be helpful to consider the etymology of each of the descriptive terms. Clinical derives from the Greek, “kline,” which means bed, (and is also found in the root of the word “recline”). Clinical practice has traditionally referred to care provided at the bedside of an ill patient. Counsel is from the Latin, “consulere,” which means to consult, advise, or deliberate. These differences, broadly speaking, reflect the earliest focus of each field. Clinical psychologists have traditionally studied disturbances in mental health, while counseling psychologists’ earliest role was to provide vocational guidance and advice. Today, though, the differences between psychologists from each specialty are more nuanced, and there are perhaps more similarities than differences among individual psychologists from each field."

My background is in public education and I envision returning to that arena in some fashion working to prevent psychological distress and promote students' well-being rather than focusing on the diagnosis and treatment of illness.

Another major factor for me was the emphasis and visible comittment to multiculturalism and racial/ethnic diversity within counseling psych which I saw as far more developed compared with clinical psych. For example, my university has well respected clinical and counseling phd programs. A quick glance at the faculty profile page reveals clinical to have 1 professor of color out of 17 while counseling has 5 out of 16. Moreover, the student body of the counseling program is also far more racially/ethnically diverse -- 52% of the doc students are students of color. Anecdotally, for 4 of my 5 years here the clinical program has had 1 student of color (who happens to be friends with many of us from counseling) and I believe they recently admitted one other.

As far as research, I'd say the programs are just as research focused, albeit with a different flavor. Most of my colleagues (whether White or people of color) are completing dissertations which somehow investigate the confluence of race/ethnicity/privilege/oppression and mental health. I also imagine we have many more folks completing qualitative studies compared to clinical. Quantitative studies tend to be quasi-experimental and/or investigate archival data. RCTs are rarer, but they occur. My dissertation is an RCT, 2 treatment conditions and a control, pre-post tests separated by several hours of intervention spread out over a semester. I plan to analyze data following MANCOVA protocol.

For our program, funding is guaranteed for all 1st year students and then varies. Some are refunded in the department, others seek funding elsewhere. We are fortunate that our program is well respected across campus and we're sometimes sought after. I found funding through a different department in my 2nd and have been there since. I am not aware of any student in the program who has been unable to find funding somewhere on campus. Our cohort sizes are 5-8 each year and come from all over the US; we also have two international students currently in the program.

I hope I answered some of your questions! PM me if you'd like to know more specifics.