Grad school: Is it really all worth it? To in the end..do what?

[scienceisbeauty]

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I am certain professorship jobs don't come by as easily as in 'you ask and it arrives'. Tenure certainly doesn't come by easily.
Even if one wants to be a clinician ...but anyway, I'm talking more about wanting to become a professor...it's hard. It's a freaking long long long long road ahead to be dead realistic.
What happens if you finish 7 years of your grad school, get your PhD in Clinical Psych..and then what? What makes someone get a job as a professor? And if you can't find a job..then?
Start working as? And what if you don't get tenure? Then what?

SIGH. *slumped and stumped and a bit *OMG*

 

[Thrak]

I'm going into social psych. I think I've got a good number of options once I get out. There's always marketing/marketing research. In an absolute worst-case scenario, I could teach high school social studies and the occasional prob and stats course.

 

[erg923]

Academic jobs are attained in much the same way as other, however, the networking and leads usually start much earlier. The competition and fatness of the CV needed depends on the league of academia you want to go into, but any time it's a University of "insert name here" you will need a good track records of research and have the ability to bring in external funding. So basically, good resesrch skills and experience with management of large projects, grant writing experience, etc. Post-docs are common now days, even for academic folks so they can become more prepared and gain more experience.

Faculty jobs in medical schools are somewhat of a different animal, but vary greatly depending on the institution. Some can be heavily clincial and some research, or vice versa. This is often the route taken by folks who have a passion for resesrch, but have extemely applied clincial interests, and enjoy the clincial side of things too.

 

[Ollie123]

They aren't easy to come by, but I don't think its as hard as some people like to make it out to be. The only people I've seen claim its "impossible" are people who are either in sketchy/questionable/outdated research areas, or people who just flat out didn't do anything in grad school. Probably whining about how stressed and busy they were the whole time, if past experience has taught me anything😉

Like that one article I saw a year or so ago about someone complaining she couldn't find an academic job, and psycinfo turned up nothing other than a dissertation abstract. What was she expecting? Why WOULD anyone give her a faculty job?

Its up to you if its worth it or not. If you're willing to bust your butt and will love every second of doing so it is. If you want something more relaxed, than its probably not. Will you get to work at your dream school? Probably not. Can you get SOME faculty job? Sure. Even if it isn't the right place, you can keep busting your butt and claw your way up.

I've learned not to listen to the naysayers about the job market. I'm cosntantly amazed by how LITTLE many people actually do in grad school, so I'm not terribly sympathetic to those who complain they can't find anything but adjunct work afterwards. I'm sure there's some folks who get caught in unfortunate situations, but I think alot just treated it the same as undergrad and thought the goal was the degree rather than the degree just being something you happen to get along the way🙂

Edit: On the subject of med school faculty, I'll add that I apparently have different experiences from erg since I have never actually seen psychologists working as faculty in med schools doing anything close to clinical work. The ones I've seen have all been 100% research jobs, so you get to spend even more time on research than your average psychology department job. Doesn't mean jobs that allow a clinical/research split aren't out there, just that I haven't been coming across them🙂

 

[scienceisbeauty]

I want to become a professor -- I want to be heavily involved in research
I want to do clinical work too..
But just today, I was talking with my mom and she was saying "really, what happens if along the way you change your mind?" "really, and what happens if along the way someway when you graduate you can't find a professor job" and then I started questioning.....
See that too, and my MS medication I fear will be expensive as *** in the states...

But see, who even knows, I haven't gotten in anywhere yet...I've only pretty much narrowed down my school choices...

But. But. With my sister going into business with a near guarantee of a high paying job next to immediately after graduating...and my prospect of being destitute for the next ~10 yrs ... and even the thought of having to remain poor after graduating... doesn't sit well with me.

Ollie, you're probably correct. I do work hard and I can see myself working even harder in the future. I just am terrified that after so many yrs of hard work, I won't get to be the professor that I want to be. BOO. I guess right now I gotta just focus on GETTING IN!

 

[erg923]

Edit: On the subject of med school faculty, I'll add that I apparently have different experiences from erg since I have never actually seen psychologists working as faculty in med schools doing anything close to clinical work. The ones I've seen have all been 100% research jobs, so you get to spend even more time on research than your average psychology department job. Doesn't mean jobs that allow a clinical/research split aren't out there, just that I haven't been coming across them🙂

We are both correct. I work as a research assistant and psychometrist at an academic med center with a few psychologists (one is my adviser in my program) who are purely research. Although they do tend to do alot of SCIDs...but that is about the extend of their "clincial work." However, there are tons of psychologists in psychiatry departments that do alot of clincial work. Particularly neuropsychologists who are on faculty. At my old job, my supervisor was assistant professor of neurology, but she did full time neuropsych clincial work there. She just collaborated and put out research whenever she could get time. She was head of the neuropsych service center, so I think her pressure to publish was minimal.

 

[psycguy85]

I've met plenty of students who changed their career plans during graduate school. Some entered dead-set on an academic career and then desired more of a clinical career, and vice-versa. Since you have stated you are interested in both research and clinical work, I think the best thing you can do right now is focus on getting into a strong program. That way (as long as you put in the work), you will have maximum flexibility in your career options, regardless of what they turn out to be. Best of luck!

 

[Ollie123]

Well the way I see it, it comes down to 2 roads. You can play it safe and do something you like less. Or you can take a calculated risk (one that you DO have a fair control over the outcome of) and do what you love.

I have a pretty respectable business degree and was pretty well set up to enter either corporate law or accounting/finance. Both of which pay infinitely more, and have far more job security (at least in the types of jobs I wanted to work in...other areas of finance are a different story entirely😉 ).

Your parents seem big on encouraging you to take the easiest road possible. The road to academic psychology is a rugged dirt path leading up a steep mountain relative to many other options, but the view at the end is worth the risk in my opinion🙂 Is that worth it to you? Or do you want the security? No one can guarantee you'll get a faculty job. You are probably the person with the most control over whether that happens. The question is, do you think the enjoyment you'd get from being a professor relative to your other career options outweighs the risks involved?

Keep in mind, this is NOT the same as many other PhDs. We are lucky enough to be going into a field with an absolutely enormous number of career opportunities, none of which need involve waiting tables or making coffee.

As for medication, most(all?) schools provide group health insurance. It might take some finangling, but I doubt you wouldn't be covered for your MS. You might have a deductable of a couple hundred annually and a copay, but I've never heard of a grad school completely hanging students out to dry regarding insurance. We get pretty crummy coverage, but its still VASTLY different from being completely uninsured. Don't let that be a barrier. If it is, there's plenty of good schools in Canada as well🙂

I want to become a professor -- I want to be heavily involved in research
I want to do clinical work too..
But just today, I was talking with my mom and she was saying "really, what happens if along the way you change your mind?" "really, and what happens if along the way someway when you graduate you can't find a professor job" and then I started questioning.....
See that too, and my MS medication I fear will be expensive as *** in the states...

But see, who even knows, I haven't gotten in anywhere yet...I've only pretty much narrowed down my school choices...

But. But. With my sister going into business with a near guarantee of a high paying job next to immediately after graduating...and my prospect of being destitute for the next ~10 yrs ... and even the thought of having to remain poor after graduating... doesn't sit well with me.

Ollie, you're probably correct. I do work hard and I can see myself working even harder in the future. I just am terrified that after so many yrs of hard work, I won't get to be the professor that I want to be. BOO. I guess right now I gotta just focus on GETTING IN!

 

[PsyDr]

economically, this entire field is not worth it.

we could have all majored in electrical engineering in undergrad and started out making 60k with an average 5% increase in salary until promotion. makes the average psychologist salary look like the worst deal in history.

conservatively, we would be ahead $200k for the time we were in grad school. and make about the same.

and those who seek academic appointments are largely located where their job is, rather than the converse. you could end up in idaho.

so, economically it is not worth it.

however, many find incredible non-monetary rewards for this profession. whether these rewards are worth the sacrifice depend on how reinforcing the internal reward is for the individual.

good luck in your choice.

 

[Sobe203]

I don't think it's all that bad economically. To be honest with you, most college graduates expect to graduate with their B.A. and find good-paying jobs right off the bat. That's not happening. The U.S. is in a recession right now. Companies are downsizing, even closing - work is harder to come by.

I have friends who studied Philosophy, World Religion, etc. and are working in bookstores or on farms 3 years after getting their B.A.'s. I have a friend who is now a nurse and wanted to work in a neonatal intensive care unit but had to take a job 10 hours away from home working with geriatric rehabilitation because that's all she could find.

The nice thing about clinical psychology is there are a lot of opportunities. Universities, research, clinical practice. Maybe I'm naive, as I've been accepted but haven't started yet, but I do trust I'll find a niche when I graduate with my Ph.D. I know it's something I'll like because I chose a field I'm genuinely passionate about. I considered Elementary Education or Physical Therapy, which would've required less education to reach my ultimate goals, but I wouldn't have been as happy. And if I'm making $60,000-$80,000 one day, I'll be a happy camper. That's a long way down the road - I'm not sweating it now. 🙂

 

[deleted176373]

I don't think it's all that bad economically. To be honest with you, most college graduates expect to graduate with their B.A. and find good-paying jobs right off the bat. That's not happening. The U.S. is in a recession right now. Companies are downsizing, even closing - work is harder to come by.

And if I'm making $60,000-$80,000 one day, I'll be a happy camper. That's a long way down the road - I'm not sweating it now. 🙂

Yes, people do make good money with Engineering B.S. degrees right out of college. Even without a degree my wife was making more than most clinical psych people with a license fresh out of school. (She was making low 6 figures with a high school diploma and some specialized computer skills.) She is now just completing her masters, so in the end we both believe education is important... but Psychology, for the money, is a bad deal.

Mark

 

[myelin]

We're all in the same boat here science. In light of our current economy, you don't hear of academic psychologists being replaced by machines or schools downsizing faculty. If anything, university admissions are on the rise as companies are expecting more from applicants in terms of education.

I think you are Canadian, but if you look in the back of the current APA Monitor, there are pages and pages of jobs available for PhD level psychologists. No worries. Now go study for the GRE 😎

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is the next step in my plan to marry rich....ok, not really, but a guy can dream right?! 😀

The field is very broad, which is both a great asset and detriment. Academia in and of itself offers a number of different opportunities, while a clinical path provides more options. Other can choose a completely different direct and take their skills into areas like business (as Ollie mentioned).

I am of the mind that graduate school is as much about learning HOW to learn as WHAT you learn. The skills acquired during training can be applied both in and outside of the field, and if done correctly....it can be a pretty attractive package to bring into any job you want. Critical thinking, processing large amounts of information, refined writing skills, teaching/training/mentoring, etc.....are all skills that are great in the field, but they are also transferable to other arenas.

My path is a bit different than a traditional one, as I want to lean much more on the business side, though with the final goal of using it to fund my clinical interests. I feel like well-trained clinical psychologists are only limited by how much time they are willing to put in, and by their abilities to properly present themselves and gain the additional training/experience to allow them access to what they want to ultimately do.

Can it be a long road to academia/practice/consulting/other....sure, but once you get there, the amount of flexibility and autonomy you have will be greater than most. I know clinicians who work 4 day weeks, live comfortably, and are able to meet their academic and professional goals. I'll never be a 4 day work week guy, but it is an option for those who want that type of lifestyle.

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Looking at the pure economics of it, it is a pretty raw deal when you consider the time, effort, money (actual and lost potential income), and the rest....but I doubt most of us are in it for the money. I figure that I can always go back to my old career if I want money, but from what I've seen with friends/family farther along in their careers, money should not be the deciding factor for satisfaction/happiness.

 

[Sobe203]

Yes, people do make good money with Engineering B.S. degrees right out of college. Even without a degree my wife was making more than most clinical psych people with a license fresh out of school. (She was making low 6 figures with a high school diploma and some specialized computer skills.) She is now just completing her masters, so in the end we both believe education is important... but Psychology, for the money, is a bad deal.

Mark

::whoosh:: That's going right over your head. You're missing my point entirely.

Yes, you can pluck out one field where people are making substantially more money after completing their B.S. than what clinical psychology Ph.D. graduates make.

However, the vast majority of students are NOT finding good-paying jobs straight out of college. To add to my friends' experiences, I have a friend who majored in Biology and is working at a travel agency. Work generally is scarce to come by and when people find work, they aren't getting the salaries they dreamed of getting as an undergrad.

Therefore, pursuing a 5 or 6 year clinical psychology degree might be worth it compared to working low-paying jobs irrelevant to your major (bookstore, farm, travel agency instead of Biology, Philosophy, World Religions).