PhD/PsyD Having a backup plan?

[lulzydoll]

Hey! I am planning to apply to about 12 PsyD programs for Fall 2015 admission... so I'll be applying towards the end of this year. I'm trying to get my plan organized a little better and I was wondering if those of you who have already applied to PsyD/PhD programs had a backup plan in case you didn't get in to any of the programs? I was thinking of applying to a Master's program around the same time, but I wanted to get some feedback on this. I read that some people who are rejected from PsyD/PhD programs will apply to research-oriented Master's programs to get some more research experience, but the Master's program I was thinking about is a Counseling program. Any thoughts?

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[psychologue]

I'm scrambling my back-up plan together right now... I really wish someone had told me to apply to Master's programs! I applied to all Clinical Psych PhD programs (and then 1 PsyD and 2 Master's in the past few weeks). The weakness in my application is definitely research experience, which I knew going into it, so if nothing PhD-wise pans out this year I'm planning on bolstering my research experience however I can (funded masters, full-time RA if i can get it, or part-time volunteer RA).

If you are interested in Counseling PsyD, you could still apply to a Counseling Master's as a back-up because it would give you some hands-on experience and demonstrate your commitment to the field. Normally people don't recommend taking the Master's route because of the debt incurred, but I assume if you're applying to all PsyD programs then money isn't an issue? Also make sure that some of your programs are "safety" programs, but that you would still like to attend if you are accepted.

 

[lulzydoll]

I'm scrambling my back-up plan together right now... I really wish someone had told me to apply to Master's programs! I applied to all Clinical Psych PhD programs (and then 1 PsyD and 2 Master's in the past few weeks). The weakness in my application is definitely research experience, which I knew going into it, so if nothing PhD-wise pans out this year I'm planning on bolstering my research experience however I can (funded masters, full-time RA if i can get it, or part-time volunteer RA).

If you are interested in Counseling PsyD, you could still apply to a Counseling Master's as a back-up because it would give you some hands-on experience and demonstrate your commitment to the field. Normally people don't recommend taking the Master's route because of the debt incurred, but I assume if you're applying to all PsyD programs then money isn't an issue? Also make sure that some of your programs are "safety" programs, but that you would still like to attend if you are accepted.

Thanks for the reply! My thing is that I'll have been out of school almost two years IF I get into a program, and I really don't want to wait much longer than that. I also have limited research experience. I did one semester in a psychology research lab but that's it. I've tried to volunteer in labs and centers but none of them take volunteers... I don't live around the school I attended for undergrad, so that's not an option. I think if I'm rejected it will be because of a lack of research experience. But I'm not having any luck landing any opportunities to get more experience! It's frustrating lol... but I am interested in clinical psychology. If I applied to the master's program in counseling it would only be as a last resort. I just didn't know if a counseling master's program would really be any help to me for applications for PsyD programs.

 

[erg923]

Why dd you rule out couseling psych ph.d programs?

 

[lulzydoll]

Why dd you rule out couseling psych ph.d programs?

I guess I never really looked into them.

 

[erg923]

uh. Dare I ask why? Its the same license.

 

[lulzydoll]

uh. Dare I ask why? Its the same license.

Having a PsyD is essentially equivalent to having a PhD in Counseling Psych?

 

[erg923]

What do you mean?

 

[lulzydoll]

What do you mean?

I never looked into them because I want to work in a prison or forensic unit in a hospital. I was always under the impression that counselors typically work with people on issues like career path, family conflict, etc. And not so much mental illness.

 

[erg923]

When a state licenses psychologists, you are licesned as a "psychologist." Period. There is no distinction between whether your degree is from a clincial or counseling psychology doctoral program. So, for a practice focused career, there is essentially no difference.

There are still some areas where psychologists from counseling psych program have trouble penetrating, but this is mostly at the internship level. For practice positions, experiences matter most. Plus, you wont have to combat the psyd bias that is still pervasive, even in the practice realm.

 

[lulzydoll]

When a state licenses psychologists, you are licesned as a "psychologist." Period. There is no distinction between whether your degree is from a clincial or counseling psychology doctoral program. So, for a practice focused career, there is essentially no difference.

There are still some areas where psychologists from counseling psych program have trouble penetrating, but this is mostly at the internship level. For practice positions, experiences matter most. Plus, you wont have to combat the psyd bias that is still pervasive, even in the practice realm.

I see what you're saying... in practice it isn't much different. Thank you for that! Are there any major differences in the application process between these two types of programs?

 

[erg923]

None of this is to say that these should be back up plans. They are still compettive but less so than clincial (on average) and they are all going to have more rigorous research requirements than a psyd program.

 

[lulzydoll]

None of this is to say that these should be back up plans. They are still compettive but less so than clincial (on average) and they are all going to have more rigorous research requirements than a psyd program.

Yeah, that's what I am most concerned about. :/ Since you're here, I've been trying to see how people do the LORs. I have 3 professors willing to write strong letters. If I apply to 12+ programs is it normal to ask the same professors to send letters to all of them? You're helpful, thank you!

 

[futureapppsy2]

Yeah, that's what I am most concerned about. :/ Since you're here, I've been trying to see how people do the LORs. I have 3 professors willing to write strong letters. If I apply to 12+ programs is it normal to ask the same professors to send letters to all of them? You're helpful, thank you!

Yes. Generally, letters are the same for all programs; just the cover forms are different. I applied to more than 12 programs and used the same three recommenders for most of them without issue. Just make sure you give them plenty of time and, if at all possible, a thank you gift after they're done writing.

 

[lulzydoll]

Yes. Generally, letters are the same for all programs; just the cover forms are different. I applied to more than 12 programs and used the same three recommenders for most of them without issue. Just make sure you give them plenty of time and, if at all possible, a thank you gift after they're done writing.

Awesome! Thanks!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I see what you're saying... in practice it isn't much different. Thank you for that! Are there any major differences in the application process between these two types of programs?

I didn't apply to counseling programs personally, but I don't think there's any difference in the application process. If I'm remembering correctly, though, I believe counseling programs often place more importance on, or give more "bonus points" for coming in with a masters degree.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I hate to be negative, but 1 semester in a research lab is not going to cut it for admission to a good/adequate doc program. You need to get more experience or don't bother applying to the doc programs. You might focus on research focused master's programs if you do not have a way to get more research experience at this time.

Dr. E

 

[bmedclinic]

I hate to be negative, but 1 semester in a research lab is not going to cut it for admission to a good/adequate doc program. You need to get more experience or don't bother applying to the doc programs. You might focus on research focused master's programs if you do not have a way to get more research experience at this time.

Dr. E

And to that point, if you end up not getting in (I do wish you well though) I'd consider getting into a masterse program that offers good research exposure so that you can speak to that when interviewing for doctoral programs in the future.

I did a masters program before my doctoral program, and it certainly helped my application. Later on down the line, the extensive assessment experience I got in my masters program paid off (and is still paying off HUGE dividents).

 

[lulzydoll]

And to that point, if you end up not getting in (I do wish you well though) I'd consider getting into a masterse program that offers good research exposure so that you can speak to that when interviewing for doctoral programs in the future.

I did a masters program before my doctoral program, and it certainly helped my application. Later on down the line, the extensive assessment experience I got in my masters program paid off (and is still paying off HUGE dividents).

What type of program did you do for your master's?

 

[lulzydoll]

I hate to be negative, but 1 semester in a research lab is not going to cut it for admission to a good/adequate doc program. You need to get more experience or don't bother applying to the doc programs. You might focus on research focused master's programs if you do not have a way to get more research experience at this time.

Dr. E

Does experience in a research center that isn't strictly psychological help with admission chances?

 

[bcliff]

Does experience in a research center that isn't strictly psychological help with admission chances?

Any research experience is better than none, but obviously it's better to have experience that closely lines up with your interests (or tailor your interests to what you have experience in). IMO, at the very least doctoral programs want to see that you have experience working in a research/academic setting, that you're comfortable with data collection/entry, that you have a general understanding of statistics software like SPSS, and that you have experience sharing your ideas via conference presentations and peer-reviewed publications.

 

[bmedclinic]

What type of program did you do for your master's?

Lulzy, I went to a masters program in clinical that had health/neuroscience options. They didnt (much to my chagrin) have great opportunities for me to get plugged in right away (and actually they were misleading about quite a few things) but I was able to get plugged into several projects, which helped me quite a bit on the vita.

 

[lulzydoll]

Lulzy, I went to a masters program in clinical that had health/neuroscience options. They didnt (much to my chagrin) have great opportunities for me to get plugged in right away (and actually they were misleading about quite a few things) but I was able to get plugged into several projects, which helped me quite a bit on the vita.

Thanks for reply. I had looked into a few clinical master's programs a while back and didn't think about them too much. But it sounds like I should lol.

 

[bmedclinic]

Thanks for reply. I had looked into a few clinical master's programs a while back and didn't think about them too much. But it sounds like I should lol.

Yeah, you might even say it would be lulzy of you not to have a backup plan. Cheap puns aside, some people just volunteer for a lab for a year or two. I know of a guy a few years ago who couldnt get into an acceptable PhD program (was waitlisted), volunteered for 1 year with 1 prof from that program, and the following year everyone was dying to get him. Accepted to quite a few well respected programs. (no this wasnt me, no 3rd person stories here).

 

[lulzydoll]

Yeah, you might even say it would be lulzy of you not to have a backup plan. Cheap puns aside, some people just volunteer for a lab for a year or two. I know of a guy a few years ago who couldnt get into an acceptable PhD program (was waitlisted), volunteered for 1 year with 1 prof from that program, and the following year everyone was dying to get him. Accepted to quite a few well respected programs. (no this wasnt me, no 3rd person stories here).

I've been trying to volunteer but haven't found anything. Do you think if you have the money for a master's program it is better to do a master's first with the little experience I have?

 

[Lisa44201]

I've been trying to volunteer but haven't found anything. Do you think if you have the money for a master's program it is better to do a master's first with the little experience I have?

Yes; look into funded Master's programs (they are out there) that require a thesis (as opposed to a seminar paper).

 

[lulzydoll]

Yes; look into funded Master's programs (they are out there) that require a thesis (as opposed to a seminar paper).

A program that requires internship/practicum hours but not a thesis will not be as good then?

 

[lulzydoll]

Yes; look into funded Master's programs (they are out there) that require a thesis (as opposed to a seminar paper).

Like a Clinical Mental Health Counseling program will not be good preparation for a doctoral program?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A program that requires internship/practicum hours but not a thesis will not be as good then?

They will most likely be less useful to improving your application to a doctoral program than an MS program that had a greater emphasis on research training/exposure. The MS doesn't need to require a thesis, but I'd view that requirement as a good indicator that you will have opportunities to participate in research activities and in areas that would benefit your C.V.

 

[bcliff]

I've heard of some clinical psychology programs not requiring you to complete a thesis en route to a PhD if you enter their program having already completed a thesis relevant to your program/research focus. I've heard from grad students that this relieves a lot of pressure and lets you focus on other areas of training.

 

[lulzydoll]

I've heard of some clinical psychology programs not requiring you to complete a thesis en route to a PhD if you enter their program having already completed a thesis relevant to your program/research focus. I've heard from grad students that this relieves a lot of pressure and lets you focus on other areas of training.

Is there any difference for a PsyD?

 

[lulzydoll]

They will most likely be less useful to improving your application to a doctoral program than an MS program that had a greater emphasis on research training/exposure. The MS doesn't need to require a thesis, but I'd view that requirement as a good indicator that you will have opportunities to participate in research activities and in areas that would benefit your C.V.

Is that the same for PsyD as PhD?

 

[bcliff]

Is there any difference for a PsyD?

I mean considering some (most?) PsyD programs don't require a thesis/dissertation, I don't think this benefit would necessarily apply, but I also didn't realize that post-bacc research experience was such a crucial/deciding factor for PsyD admissions. Why not just earn a terminal masters degree that would let you get licensed? Why do you want to earn a PsyD?

 

[lulzydoll]

I've considered that too. I guess I don't know too much about this. I had originally looked into master's programs but thought that a PsyD would give me more opportunity to practice. Maybe that's incorrect or I am not sure of the difference between a PsyD and a master's in clinical counseling in terms of most practice. I know of several programs around me that would get me licensed through their master's programs. I guess I just thought a doctorate degree would help me find a better job.

 

[lulzydoll]

I mean considering some (most?) PsyD programs don't require a thesis/dissertation, I don't think this benefit would necessarily apply, but I also didn't realize that post-bacc research experience was such a crucial/deciding factor for PsyD admissions. Why not just earn a terminal masters degree that would let you get licensed? Why do you want to earn a PsyD?

I mentioned applying to PsyD programs, not PhD programs. I was under the impression PsyD programs do not place AS much emphasis on research but then some people said to not apply to doctoral programs without the research experience. I guess I'm confused lol.

 

[Lisa44201]

I mentioned applying to PsyD programs, not PhD programs. I was under the impression PsyD programs do not place AS much emphasis on research but then some people said to not apply to doctoral programs without the research experience. I guess I'm confused lol.

In your original post, you did mention you were applying to 12 PsyD programs, but then asked about a Master's as a back-up to PhD/PsyD programs. (I completely missed you saying you were applying to PsyD programs as opposed to PhD programs; my fault).
If your application as a whole is lacking research experience, one way to gain that is a Master's program with a research component.
Are you looking at research-oriented PsyD programs?

 

[erg923]

Luzy, could you please list the objective advantages of a psyd program over a phd program in clinical or counseling psychology.

 

[bcliff]

There are plenty of threads that discuss the merits/problems associated with the PsyD, but my personal opinion (which I think is shared by many both in the field and on SDN) is that in most cases getting a terminal masters degree that is eligible for licensure (i.e. an MSW that leads to becoming an LCSW; or an MA that leads to becoming an LPC; etc.) takes less time, less $$$, and frequently has a better longterm career outlook. There are some university based PsyD programs (Baylor, Rutgers, etc.) that offer solid clinical training, but to my knowledge these are outliers rather than the rule.

There are also plenty of threads that discuss how insurance reimbursement for services rendered by midlevel practitioners (LCSW/LPC/LMFT/etc.) continues to get progressively closer to the rates of reimbursement for PhD/PsyD providers.

I normally only recommend clinical psychology doctoral training to those who are interested in pursuing a funded degree and are at the very least open to the idea of working in research/academia in addition to/instead of clinical work. If you want to do 100% clinical work get an MSW/MA; if you want 100% research go into experimental psych; if you're interested in both get a clinical psych PhD.

 

[lulzydoll]

There are plenty of threads that discuss the merits/problems associated with the PsyD, but my personal opinion (which I think is shared by many both in the field and on SDN) is that in most cases getting a terminal masters degree that is eligible for licensure (i.e. an MSW that leads to becoming an LCSW; or an MA that leads to becoming an LPC; etc.) takes less time, less $$$, and frequently has a better longterm career outlook. There are some university based PsyD programs (Baylor, Rutgers, etc.) that offer solid clinical training, but to my knowledge these are outliers rather than the rule.

There are also plenty of threads that discuss how insurance reimbursement for services rendered by midlevel practitioners (LCSW/LPC/LMFT/etc.) continues to get progressively closer to the rates of reimbursement for PhD/PsyD providers.

I normally only recommend clinical psychology doctoral training to those who are interested in pursuing a funded degree and is at the very least open to the idea of working in research/academia in addition to/instead of clinical work. If you want to do 100% clinical work get an MSW/MA; if you want 100% research go into experimental psych; if you're interested in both get a clinical psych PhD.

Thanks for all your help!