Help calculating opportunity cost of Oral Surgery

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Was gp, now in endo school. My observation is solo specialists never take time off.

But you will find time even as a solo. I was a solo practicing ortho for most of my career. Once I was established .... I averaged 3 weeks per year. Again this coincided with my staff. They were very loyal and had been with me for many years. Each of them had earned 3 weeks of paid vacation. I had a mutual agreement with an ortho colleague in that we would cover for each other whenever we were out of the office on vacation.
But ... endo is different. Isn't it? Not sure you want your competition handling an emergency from one of your best referral sources.
But you will need to take some time off. To re-energize. For your family.
 
But you will find time even as a solo. I was a solo practicing ortho for most of my career. Once I was established .... I averaged 3 weeks per year. Again this coincided with my staff. They were very loyal and had been with me for many years. Each of them had earned 3 weeks of paid vacation. I had a mutual agreement with an ortho colleague in that we would cover for each other whenever we were out of the office on vacation.
But ... endo is different. Isn't it? Not sure you want your competition handling an emergency from one of your best referral sources.
But you will need to take some time off. To re-energize. For your family.

I think ortho/pedo/perio tend to have easier time off as a solo practitioner.

Endo/omfs tend to have the most emergencies due to the nature of their specialty.

My endodontist has covered for the past 3 vacations this year I’ve been on. She hasn’t taken any- well she has taken a few 3-4 days off but I don’t consider that vacation... I consider 1 week+ off as a vacation
 
Ah I see, solo specialist seems very stressful. You always have to be there for your GPs or you risk losing referrals. Income is probably higher though I'm guessing.

It depends on the context of not being there for your GP's. If you are out on vacation, I'm more understanding. If you are unable to fit my patient in when there's an urgent matter and you don't make room for my patient, then that's when I get irritated.

This happened yesterday: I got pissed off at my regular OS since they wouldn't see an emergency 3rds patient, even just for a consult. I don't mind if you can't see them immediately for a non-emergency, but in the off chance that it's an emergency, I do expect the specialist to see the patient if they are in the office. Their excuse: "Too busy, we can see them in 3 weeks". That just tells me that you don't have time for my patients or my referrals. Thus, other OS's/perio gets my 3rds/implants for the rest of the summer or maybe when I'm less irritated, I'll send patients back to them.

Am I being a dick to the specialist?
 
It depends on the context of not being there for your GP's. If you are out on vacation, I'm more understanding. If you are unable to fit my patient in when there's an urgent matter and you don't make room for my patient, then that's when I get irritated.

This happened yesterday: I got pissed off at my regular OS since they wouldn't see an emergency 3rds patient, even just for a consult. I don't mind if you can't see them immediately for a non-emergency, but in the off chance that it's an emergency, I do expect the specialist to see the patient if they are in the office. Their excuse: "Too busy, we can see them in 3 weeks". That just tells me that you don't have time for my patients or my referrals. Thus, other OS's/perio gets my 3rds/implants for the rest of the summer or maybe when I'm less irritated, I'll send patients back to them.

Am I being a dick to the specialist?

No. Patients who in pain for ext or rct do not want to wait 3 weeks for treatment.

There are enough specialists in my area that I can get them in ASAP. 5-6 endo. 3-4 omfs, 5-6 ortho, 3-4 pediatric, 2-3 perio.

I’ve never had patients wait.
 
Just out of curiosity, do you GP's have a go to guy for each specialty (one OS for example), or do you split up referrals between multiple OS around the area? Does the decision to send a referral to one OS over another have to do with insurance plans each office accepts?
 
Just out of curiosity, do you GP's have a go to guy for each specialty (one OS for example), or do you split up referrals between multiple OS around the area? Does the decision to send a referral to one OS over another have to do with insurance plans each office accepts?

I have multiple for each specialty. I know the strengths and weaknesses of each specialist. I also do not send cases to certain specialists either.

Examples:
For ortho, if occlusion is the CC or phase I ortho, I send to a particular specialist that has better results. Downside is that they are terrible at selling treatment, so many patients don't proceed with treatment. Another ortho I work with has really good hours, relatively good results, good at selling ortho and send me lots of patients, so they get a bulk of my patients. Their only weakness is occlusion is not always the best and they torque the anterior roots a lot. Sometimes results in pulpal necrosis and recession. I like that both emphasize good oral hygiene with our patients. There's some offices here that will put brackets on anyone, even with severe perio or gross caries.

The decision on which OS to send to depends on patient experiences and the OS interaction with me. There's one OS that I had to field a lot of dry sockets. I stopped sending to them because of that. There's two that puts the blame on the GP and absolves themselves of any liability. Both of them are the only ones that see TMJ patients and one of them is an ahole, so I refuse to work with them unless the patient went to them in the first place. There's another one with questionable IC practices, so I avoid them too. That leaves me with two, but I send to one OS primarily because patients loves him. The other one is a backup. Perio does 3rds here, so I've been sending them a lot of thirds. Insurance coverage plays no role to who I refer. I refer to those that I think are most capable for the case and will treat the patient well.

This goes back to who I would refer to. If you're good at what you do, you are nice to me, never badmouth me to the patient, and send me lots of food/gifts, you'll get the majority of my referrals. You will be surprised how many specialists do not have this quadruple combo (4th one being optional). If the patient goes and mentions something about insurance, I'll send them elsewhere, but I'll just say that I have minimal experience with that doctor so I cannot vouch for them personally, buyer beware.

Kind of a long rant, but I send patients to specialists based on their strengths and weaknesses, but if I have a reason not to send to that specialist (see above), then I won't. When a patient respects you as a doctor, they will honor your referral/recommendation regardless of insurance. Why? Because I can confidently tell the patient that I screen my specialists, I know who does good work in my area, and the people I recommend are the best in my area. If they ask about a particular specialist that I know does bad work, I only say that I don't have much experience with them and cannot professionally comment about their work. I don't make a recommendation if the patient already has a specialist in mind or has previous positive experiences with another specialist. If they have positive experiences, I just say you should go to them, because nothing beats your own personal experiences.
 
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@TanMan - thanks for the details! How often does specialist photography factor in to your referrals? Besides doing 3rds and the 4 aforementioned things you mentioned, what specifically has the perio done to win your referrals. If a new perio bought the office of your existing perio - what could they do to keep your referrals - thanks for being a mentor!
 
I have multiple for each specialty. I know the strengths and weaknesses of each specialist. I also do not send cases to certain specialists either.

Examples:
For ortho, if occlusion is the CC or phase I ortho, I send to a particular specialist that has better results. Downside is that they are terrible at selling treatment, so many patients don't proceed with treatment. Another ortho I work with has really good hours, relatively good results, good at selling ortho and send me lots of patients, so they get a bulk of my patients. Their only weakness is occlusion is not always the best and they torque the anterior roots a lot. Sometimes results in pulpal necrosis and recession. I like that both emphasize good oral hygiene with our patients. There's some offices here that will put brackets on anyone, even with severe perio or gross caries.

The decision on which OS to send to depends on patient experiences and the OS interaction with me. There's one OS that I had to field a lot of dry sockets. I stopped sending to them because of that. There's two that puts the blame on the GP and absolves themselves of any liability. Both of them are the only ones that see TMJ patients and one of them is an ahole, so I refuse to work with them unless the patient went to them in the first place. There's another one with questionable IC practices, so I avoid them too. That leaves me with two, but I send to one OS primarily because patients loves him. The other one is a backup. Perio does 3rds here, so I've been sending them a lot of thirds. Insurance coverage plays no role to who I refer. I refer to those that I think are most capable for the case and will treat the patient well.

This goes back to who I would refer to. If you're good at what you do, you are nice to me, never badmouth me to the patient, and send me lots of food/gifts, you'll get the majority of my referrals. You will be surprised how many specialists do not have this quadruple combo (4th one being optional). If the patient goes and mentions something about insurance, I'll send them elsewhere, but I'll just say that I have minimal experience with that doctor so I cannot vouch for them personally, buyer beware.

Kind of a long rant, but I send patients to specialists based on their strengths and weaknesses, but if I have a reason not to send to that specialist (see above), then I won't. When a patient respects you as a doctor, they will honor your referral/recommendation regardless of insurance. Why? Because I can confidently tell the patient that I screen my specialists, I know who does good work in my area, and the people I recommend are the best in my area. If they ask about a particular specialist that I know does bad work, I only say that I don't have much experience with them and cannot professionally comment about their work. I don't make a recommendation if the patient already has a specialist in mind or has previous positive experiences with another specialist. If they has positive experiences, I just say you should go to them, because nothing beats your own personal experiences.

Thanks for putting the effort in for such a valuable post! This is gold.
 
All you young aspiring specialists .... take note of what @TanMan posted about specialty referrals. On point and mostly common sense. When I was a young, motivated, "starving" orthodontist ..... I went to lunch with EVERY GP that was near my practice. Every specialist has their tactics. I'm a sports guy, so I had season tickets to the Cardinals, D-Backs and the Coyotes. Good seats. Gave tickets to my referral GPs all the time. I also arranged a yearly "Boys Trip" (sorry ladies) to my Florida condo for boating, fishing and golf (the trifecta). As your practice matures .... most specialists will have a smaller number of GP referrers. TAKE CARE OF THEM. They are the reason for your success.

Now .. there is no easy formula on what a GP likes. They are all different. I know some GPs that like to be wined and dined. Free golf. Free tickets to sporiing events. Free this. Free that. No real loyalty. You'll get traded in for the next specialist with better stuff. I know some GPs that like to be the quarterback for ALL your speciality work. I've been asked to move certain teeth here or there. When I was younger .... I looked at those GP comments on how to do my job as an advantage. It's alway wise to have another set of eyes look and evaluate your work. Now .. as you become older and more experienced .... having a GP dictate your treatment can get "irritating". i.e There was this GP that liked to do simple 6 months braces and Invisalign. We also had mutual patients. He would often tell me "HOW TO MOVE TEETH". He sent me patients, so I just grinned and thanked him for giving me this valuable information.

I've done Lunch and Learns with GP staff. I've always treated the entire GP, GPs family and staff for free. I've always been available for any patient questions or concerns from the GPs.

But its a game. Some do it better than others. It also changes when you get older. It's all about relationships. Younger GPs like to work with similar minded younger specialists. They have more in common. As you become an older specialist .... well .... you start to lose those older GP referrals (they retire, become disabled and work for local Dental School). Also ... as an older specialist ... you become less tolerant of the the GP's expectations. Same in any profession.

I work Corp now. No concerns about any GP referrals. No Florida condo. No more Boy's trips. No sporting tickets. No more lunches. Nada. I have to admit .... probably the BEST thing about working Corp. My buddy .... a 70 yr old Periodontist (still practicing in Corp), and an older OS like to sit around and talk about our private practice days and some of the unique demands that GPs asked us to do. Quite alot of interesting stories.

So GPs. The story goes both ways.
 
All you young aspiring specialists .... take note of what @TanMan posted about specialty referrals. On point and mostly common sense. When I was a young, motivated, "starving" orthodontist ..... I went to lunch with EVERY GP that was near my practice. Every specialist has their tactics. I'm a sports guy, so I had season tickets to the Cardinals, D-Backs and the Coyotes. Good seats. Gave tickets to my referral GPs all the time. I also arranged a yearly "Boys Trip" (sorry ladies) to my Florida condo for boating, fishing and golf (the trifecta). As your practice matures .... most specialists will have a smaller number of GP referrers. TAKE CARE OF THEM. They are the reason for your success.

Now .. there is no easy formula on what a GP likes. They are all different. I know some GPs that like to be wined and dined. Free golf. Free tickets to sporiing events. Free this. Free that. No real loyalty. You'll get traded in for the next specialist with better stuff. I know some GPs that like to be the quarterback for ALL your speciality work. I've been asked to move certain teeth here or there. When I was younger .... I looked at those GP comments on how to do my job as an advantage. It's alway wise to have another set of eyes look and evaluate your work. Now .. as you become older and more experienced .... having a GP dictate your treatment can get "irritating". i.e There was this GP that liked to do simple 6 months braces and Invisalign. We also had mutual patients. He would often tell me "HOW TO MOVE TEETH". He sent me patients, so I just grinned and thanked him for giving me this valuable information.

I've done Lunch and Learns with GP staff. I've always treated the entire GP, GPs family and staff for free. I've always been available for any patient questions or concerns from the GPs.

But its a game. Some do it better than others. It also changes when you get older. It's all about relationships. Younger GPs like to work with similar minded younger specialists. They have more in common. As you become an older specialist .... well .... you start to lose those older GP referrals (they retire, become disabled and work for local Dental School). Also ... as an older specialist ... you become less tolerant of the the GP's expectations. Same in any profession.

I work Corp now. No concerns about any GP referrals. No Florida condo. No more Boy's trips. No sporting tickets. No more lunches. Nada. I have to admit .... probably the BEST thing about working Corp. My buddy .... a 70 yr old Periodontist (still practicing in Corp), and an older OS like to sit around and talk about our private practice days and some of the unique demands that GPs asked us to do. Quite alot of interesting stories.

So GPs. The story goes both ways.
Great advice as well, and Specialist need to always keep in mind and they always forget is that the GP has done all the heavy lifting for you, what do I mean by that? Mrs. Jones has been going thru hygiene every 6 months and needs implants, the hygienist and myself have been slowly grooming Mrs. Jones to get those implants, finally MRs. Jones says " Doc Im ready to get implants, ready to go", and they get a referral to my specialist and thats it. Respect the fact that GP spend a lot of effort and money to attract pts , then we send them off to you for high paying procedures. I had one specialist bad mouth my work, that was the last referral he got from me, then guess what his front desk steps by to know what can be done to get business back. Sorry but if you are too stupid to know its not a good idea to throw your referee under the bus I cant help you. And another thing not to do, don't call me and guilt me and tell me I have only sent you X amount of cases this year and it only amounted to this dollar amount and you need more cases if I want my pts seen quickly, and as a GP I shouldn't be doing x,y,z procedure. IT really is common sense but many specialist truly forget how all this works.
 
Trying to impress a GP is like trying to impress a girl haha
Nahh, its not that hard lol. But just keep in mind if I use another specialist its not knock against you at all. One specialist asked me what can he do be my exclusive OS, I said sure I tell you what, if you agree not to work with any of my colleagues down the street then I will refer to you exclusively.
Guess what? he wasn't down with that plan. LOL.
 
@TanMan - thanks for the details! How often does specialist photography factor in to your referrals? Besides doing 3rds and the 4 aforementioned things you mentioned, what specifically has the perio done to win your referrals. If a new perio bought the office of your existing perio - what could they do to keep your referrals - thanks for being a mentor!

That's pretty much it. I don't expect much from a specialist besides those 4 criteria and being available to take a patient in when needed. Being available for any questions on a case that we're working on together helps too.

If a new perio bought the office of the existing perio, the same criterias must apply. If they meet those criterias, I have no problem continuing to send patients to that same office (with the new owner). Every dentist is different in their criterias for choosing a specialist to refer to. My criterias are mostly objective (besides the food and gifts), but I appreciate it more if you give the food to the staff since they are my workhorses. Interestingly enough, some dentists will refer to a specialist that will continue to bail them out after screwing up case after case, some want to be taken to strip clubs and/or provided women, etc... Once you get big enough as a specialist, you can be more selective on who you choose to work with. There are some GP's out there that are just complete dbags and there are some that will send you easy and hard cases. I'd prefer to keep GP/specialist relations on a more professional level and although the GP has more of the upper hand in the relationship, you should also seek out GP's that are not going to be liabilities for you. However, starting out, you just have to take what you can and evolve your practice from there.

Edit: What's a specialist photography factor?
 
That's pretty much it. I don't expect much from a specialist besides those 4 criteria and being available to take a patient in when needed. Being available for any questions on a case that we're working on together helps too.

If a new perio bought the office of the existing perio, the same criterias must apply. If they meet those criterias, I have no problem continuing to send patients to that same office (with the new owner). Every dentist is different in their criterias for choosing a specialist to refer to. My criterias are mostly objective (besides the food and gifts), but I appreciate it more if you give the food to the staff since they are my workhorses. Interestingly enough, some dentists will refer to a specialist that will continue to bail them out after screwing up case after case, some want to be taken to strip clubs and/or provided women, etc... Once you get big enough as a specialist, you can be more selective on who you choose to work with. There are some GP's out there that are just complete dbags and there are some that will send you easy and hard cases. I'd prefer to keep GP/specialist relations on a more professional level and although the GP has more of the upper hand in the relationship, you should also seek out GP's that are not going to be liabilities for you. However, starting out, you just have to take what you can and evolve your practice from there.

Edit: What's a specialist photography factor?

Thanks tanman - you are a genius! I’m not big on taking a photo of every incision or suture I tie - would this be an issue for a big dog like you?
 
I always knew dentists had a wild side 🤣

I have no problem with entertaining my future GPs - whether it’s strip club, hookers or a subscription to porn on my corporate account - I’ll take care of them!
 
Periodontists around me might be very happy if I start referring 3rds to them instead of OS, but I don't understand why I would do that. It seems to me training and liability wise it makes more sense to refer to OS.

Anyone who has sufficient training and can administer IV sedation should be able to take care of most 3rds. I send to perio because it meets my 3 criterias. Patients love that I can send them for same day 3rds removal as long as they were npo and medical eval was fine. I can't get that too often with OS, but I can get perio to do that. If an OS provided that level of service to my patients, I'd still go with either OS or perio for 3rds. Right now, the OS's tend to do consults then reappoint for 3rds. I prefer that they consult and ext same day when possible. Especially if the patient is in pain.

I always knew dentists had a wild side 🤣

Yea, I try to stay away from shady places. Even though I'm "flashy" when it comes to stuff I have, I'd rather not be associated with shady places in the local area. In a much bigger city like LA/SF/NYC, I don't think it matters so much, but when you only have 2-3 strip clubs in your area and a population of a few hundred thousand + you got billboards of your face everywhere, I wouldn't want to be seen in one in my local area. That's the bad thing with being a recognizable person... you don't want to **** where you eat.

If you really needed someone's business but you couldn't be seen in those places, you send a beautiful or handsome rep to wine and dine them. (if your target's preferences/weakness/vices were of that nature). Whatever they do on their time is their own thing as consenting adults. Thankfully, I've never been put in that position in the dental setting.

Thanks tanman - you are a genius! I’m not big on taking a photo of every incision or suture I tie - would this be an issue for a big dog like you?

As long as you don't put a patient through a useless 3 hour photography session with cheek retractors on the whole time, I don't really care if you take photos. If the patient consents and you don't put the patient through hell to get your photo, I see no problem at all. Just remember that if you're using a photo to CYA, it can also be argued that you're leaving evidence at the crime scene that can be used against you.

For me, photography is most useful for pre-op/post-op esthetic cases. Just for those crazies that say you messed up their teeth, you can show them and the courts that their smile was totally f*cked up before you drastically improved it. Most dentists can improve your smile esthetically and that's why photos, study models, waxups, and prep guides are important. You're essentially doing your due diligence by saying, ok, we're going to take study models/pre-ops, so I can show you on stone how much I'm going to grind your teeth down and how the final result is going to look. If they approve and they complain about it later, you can say, I showed you before doing anything irreversible to your teeth and the final result looks like the waxup AND you had time to think about it.

For perio, I think it can sometimes show that your graft failed or succeeded, but for the layman, they wouldn't know or care if they gained more KT, tissue quality, etc... but a court/arbitration might.
 
This thread has gone off the rails

Although it doesn't directly address the original OP's question, I think this gives future specialists an idea of what to expect on GP-specialist relationships. Not everything is as rosy as it seems and this is another issue a specialist will have to consider in their future business model.
 
Please stop dominating this thread with your specialist bashing and how you demand specialists to kiss your ass for referrals. Leave this post open for Omfs and other specialists to speak on their experiences.
 
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Please stop dominating this thread with your specialist bashing and how you demand specialists to kiss your ass for referrals. Leave this post open for Omfs and other specialists to speak on their experiences.
I think his contributions are valuable for people who want to know more about GP-specialist relationships
 
Please stop dominating this thread with your specialist bashing and how you demand specialists to kiss your ass for referrals. Leave this post open for Omfs and other specialists to speak on their experiences.
Both specialists & GPs are welcome to share their perspectives here.
 
Please stop dominating this thread with your specialist bashing and how you demand specialists to kiss your ass for referrals. Leave this post open for Omfs and other specialists to speak on their experiences.

I'm not bashing specialists. The main point is not all specialists are equal. Within a given specialty field, there are good and bad specialists. There are some who are clinically excellent, but complete dbags to GP's/patients and vice versa. If you want to figure out the logic behind why someone's going to send you patients, that's the information I'm giving people here. Not all GP's operate on the same logic, and trying to unravel an existing GP-specialist relationship to breakthrough the market is more difficult than you think.

When has being nice and cordial asking to kiss ass? Maybe the food part, but that's a good way to get people to send you patients. If you don't want to kiss ass, that's your priority. However, the specialist next door will... and if they have more experience, friendlier to patients, staff, and myself, willing to "kiss ass", and is more tried and true, ask yourself then, why would someone send a patient to you v. the other omfs next door. Being humble and not thinking yourself as superior to your GP counterparts is something you will need to figure out. I know when an omfs has held their tongue against me before and I appreciate it. Those that do not, no longer get my business due to their arrogance. If you are still an omfs resident, learn this quick. If you are a practicing omfs, then you should already realize the reasons why a GP will or will not send patients to you.

Even in the corporate environment, you're going to have to kiss someone's ass. Maybe not for referrals, but to keep your job and corporate bosses happy. I don't think I've used the word ass so much in a single post, but I figure I'd use your own words to drive the point.
 
So, you've been saying that we need to wine and dine you, hold our tongues against you, and provide same day sedation if we want to keep your referrals and somehow you are thinking that I am the one feeling superior? You seem more focused on your needs rather than on patient care. And this is the problem with dentistry: its all about what you do for the referring doc and the focus has shifted from patient care (something that we focus on greatly throughout our extensive training).

Yes, we all in these forums understand that we need to be nice and accommodating to our referring docs, and to be nice at work so you don't get fired (we all know how to work and behave professionally). But you have the audacity to tell someone that they may regret 4-6 years of their life pursuing a very noble profession. How do you know this unless you yourself have gone through the training? I have never met an OS that has regretted any aspect of pursuing OMFS, even when it comes to laying out the red-carpet for guys like you. So excuse me if I take offense to some of your comments.
 
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Yes, we all in these forums understand that we need to be nice and accommodating to our referring docs, and to be nice at work so you don't get fired (we all know how to work and behave professionally). But you have the audacity to tell someone that they may regret 4-6 years of their life pursuing a very noble profession. How do you know this unless you yourself have gone through the training? I have never met an OS that has regretted any aspect of pursuing OMFS, even when it comes to laying out the red-carpet for guys like you. So excuse me if I take offense to some of your comments.

The topic at hand is whether the opportunity cost of OMFS is worth it. There is nothing wrong with a GP giving input.

I'm not saying he is wrong or he is right, but his input does have truth in it.

Regardless the topic is “is opportunity cost worth it” so I would say he technically on topic.
 
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So, you've been saying that we need to wine and dine you, hold our tongues against you, and provide same day sedation if we want to keep your referrals and somehow you are thinking that I am the one feeling superior? You seem more focused on your needs rather than on patient care. And this is the problem with dentistry: its all about what you do for the referring doc and the focus has shifted from patient care (something that we focus on greatly throughout our extensive training).

Yes, we all in these forums understand that we need to be nice and accommodating to our referring docs, and to be nice at work so you don't get fired (we all know how to work and behave professionally). But you have the audacity to tell someone that they may regret 4-6 years of their life pursuing a very noble profession. How do you know this unless you yourself have gone through the training? I have never met an OS that has regretted any aspect of pursuing OMFS, even when it comes to laying out the red-carpet for guys like you. So excuse me if I take offense to some of your comments.

Of course every little bit counts. if you won't do it, your competitors will. If you provide services that my patient wants that day and you can deliver before they change their mind, that's good business for you and me. I'm focused on my patient needs and business needs. Going back to the criteria that I mentioned:
- Being good at what you do - This is a given. If you screw up a lot, my reputation takes a hit and I look bad for vouching for you. Also, having to hide bad implant placement makes my job more difficult or fielding dry sockets.
- Being nice - This is also a given. You can be the best specialist in the area, but if you're a dick to me, you're probably a dick to the patients too. There's a person connected to what you're working on. Treat me and my patients like people (with respect). Goes back to if I refer a patient to you and they had a negative experience, that looks bad upon me and my business. If you're not nice, you're more likely to throw me under the bus. Same deal, bad for business.
- Being accomodating - Don't make my patients wait a long time for an emergency. That makes me look bad if I can't get them out of pain because the procedure is beyond my pay grade.
- Free food/stuff - Symbol of goodwill and friendship. This is icing on the top. If all things are equivalent between specialists, this is the tie breaker.

So yes, for business, you need to do all that, because we are the gatekeepers. If you're the only specialist in town, then you don't have to. If you are not willing to do those things I mentioned above, your competitors will. Do you notice that all except the free food/stuff has a direct business connection? Even the free food/stuff will make my staff talk more highly of you as well to the patient.

Next, you might have some selection bias is saying that you never met an OS that regretted their training. Perhaps the ones that regretted it are the ones that left midway through the program. If what you're saying is true that 100% of OS's don't regret going through their program, then you need to look at the ones that dropped out of their respective OS programs. Also, 4-6 years is a long time to hedge your life against on something you may not necessarily know about until you're knee deep into the program (same with dental school!). In the previous post(s), I've made a comparison of going into a 4-6 yr OS program and regretting it afterwards v. working for 4-6 years later then realizing that you're unfulfilled in your professional life.

You may have a noble profession, but not everyone is stoked to spend 4-6 years of their prime life to pursue that. I don't think my expectations of my specialists are unreasonable, because you guys are essentially an extension of my office without hiring you directly. If you think any of my expectations are unreasonable, post them.

Edit: I'm humble enough to my specialists not to get into direct confrontations. However, this is an unwritten pact that I don't spell out to my specialists. It is EXPECTED as a specialist that I refer to, to do what I've outlined in all these posts. I won't hold my superiority with my specialists, as I'll defer to whatever the hell they want to do from a procedural standpoint unless there's a restorative component (or if they are doing things out of their scope/sending it to other GP's). I also expect them to remain professional and cordial even through the worst of times because I am the one holding the referral cards (literally).
 
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Found this interesting article about whether pursuing dental specialty training is worth it

 
Great advice as well, and Specialist need to always keep in mind and they always forget is that the GP has done all the heavy lifting for you, what do I mean by that? Mrs. Jones has been going thru hygiene every 6 months and needs implants, the hygienist and myself have been slowly grooming Mrs. Jones to get those implants, finally MRs. Jones says " Doc Im ready to get implants, ready to go", and they get a referral to my specialist and thats it. Respect the fact that GP spend a lot of effort and money to attract pts , then we send them off to you for high paying procedures. I had one specialist bad mouth my work, that was the last referral he got from me, then guess what his front desk steps by to know what can be done to get business back. Sorry but if you are too stupid to know its not a good idea to throw your referee under the bus I cant help you. And another thing not to do, don't call me and guilt me and tell me I have only sent you X amount of cases this year and it only amounted to this dollar amount and you need more cases if I want my pts seen quickly, and as a GP I shouldn't be doing x,y,z procedure. IT really is common sense but many specialist truly forget how all this works.

No one is above criticism.
 
That makes me look bad if I can't get them out of pain because the procedure is beyond my pay grade.

You guys are essentially an extension of my office.

I won't hold my superiority with my specialists.


Things exist on a balanced spectrum. And while you are correct in most of your expectations to an extent, your attitude is just on the other end.

I'd be willing to have professional, respectful, win-win relationships with my GPs (and be savvy about it), but I wouldn't be willing to dance to every one of their farts. If my "competition" is willing to do so, that's their problem. There is a subtle, but real difference there.
 
It's just business. When I was starting out .... I did EVERYTHING I could to build referral relationships with GPs and Pedos. As a specialist your success will depend on your referrals. Your bottom line will depend on referrals. Of course different specialties require different levels of referrals. Pedos require fewer referrals since they can market directly to the public. Orthos are kind of in the middle. Endos. perio and OS probably require the most referrals.

I didn't mind all the sucking up because these GPs were sending me patients. Each GP is different and you have to adapt to their individual needs. Each specialist will have to decide where to draw the line. It will happen. Eventually. I've lost many GP referrers over the years for weird scenarios. If you do not agree with @TanMan 's approach .. .that's fine .... he'll send his pts elsewhere. No biggie.

Unfortunately in a saturated market there will be plenty of specialists to take your spot. As you get older .... the referral sources also start to lessen. I can't speak for others, but I got to the point where I simply got tired of playing that game of "Please send your referals to me."

At this time ... I believe it is harder than before to be a specialist competing for referrals. Especially in the saturated areas. So if you're a young, new specialist .... you better suck it up and make the GPs happy. Especially if you're an OS. Pretty rare for OS to get walk in patients looking to get their wissies out. Most of your patients will come from GPs and insurance (if you're part of their provider list).
 
Things exist on a balanced spectrum. And while you are correct in most of your expectations to an extent, your attitude is just on the other end.

I'd be willing to have professional, respectful, win-win relationships with my GPs (and be savvy about it), but I wouldn't be willing to dance to every one of their farts. If my "competition" is willing to do so, that's their problem. There is a subtle, but real difference there.

In the end, we are (I am) always looking out for our self-interests and the interests of the office (which involves patients satisfaction and care). Some GP's are crazy in their demands, but I really don't think I'm unreasonable when it comes to my specialists. When I mention superiority, it's my upperhand in the business relationship, not clinical superiority (that's the specialist's role). If your office is not referral based or doesn't require referrals, then you don't really have to entertain any GP demands unless you have an interest in providing a good surgical-restorative outcome (which sadly, some surgeons don't care about the restorative outcome -- here's implants, put something there, WTF?). If I send you a hundred sets of 3rds and I need you to see a 101st set immediately due to some circumstances, I expect the specialist to do so in a timely manner unless they are on vacation, even just for a consult. If the specialist next door is willing to do that, ext on the same day, and do all the stuff that you may not be willing to do, then what incentive do I have to send patients to the specialist that's going to make my patient wait? Out of loyalty that's hindering my business? If your competition is willing to do it and you aren't, eventually, your referral stream might dry up.

My office benefiting is not exclusive to your office benefiting. Both offices can benefit.
In the three statements you highlighted:

- Who wants to look bad? I don't want to look bad in front of a patient when I'm already giving you a patient that you can make a quick 2k+ on and you refuse to see them in a timely manner because you're "too busy".
- You guys are essentially an extension of my office (not financially) . Your reflects on my work, and vice versa. Their experiences, whether it be positive or negative, reflect on the people I vouch for. I look the patient in the eye and tell them that these are some of the best specialists in the area, if I needed to get x procedure done, I would go with them, and if I could do it to your level, I'd do it, but I can't, so I'm sending them to the specialist. If they are disappointed or upset over an experience with the specialist that I personally vouched for, you know I'd be pissed off if it was something that occurred consistently. If it's just one or two and I know they were crazy, then I definitely understand.
- Third, GP's have the upperhand in the referral relationship. Especially when practices are built on referrals. You could do direct marketing and cut out the GP altogether, but that requires a significant marketing budget and you will definitely get some blowback from GP's.

I forgot to mention one other criteria in sending patients to specialists. The specialist usually plays a critical role in the overall GP treatment plan, but that requires the specialist to have a great sales team. I have stopped sending patients to clinically good specialists because they couldn't get the patient to do what I needed to do, to proceed from a restorative standpoint. That's another factor to look into. How good is your sales team in selling the procedures I referred to you?
 
It's just business. When I was starting out .... I did EVERYTHING I could to build referral relationships with GPs and Pedos. As a specialist your success will depend on your referrals. Your bottom line will depend on referrals. Of course different specialties require different levels of referrals. Pedos require fewer referrals since they can market directly to the public. Orthos are kind of in the middle. Endos. perio and OS probably require the most referrals.

I didn't mind all the sucking up because these GPs were sending me patients. Each GP is different and you have to adapt to their individual needs. Each specialist will have to decide where to draw the line. It will happen. Eventually. I've lost many GP referrers over the years for weird scenarios. If you do not agree with @TanMan 's approach .. .that's fine .... he'll send his pts elsewhere. No biggie.

Unfortunately in a saturated market there will be plenty of specialists to take your spot. As you get older .... the referral sources also start to lessen. I can't speak for others, but I got to the point where I simply got tired of playing that game of "Please send your referals to me."

At this time ... I believe it is harder than before to be a specialist competing for referrals. Especially in the saturated areas. So if you're a young, new specialist .... you better suck it up and make the GPs happy. Especially if you're an OS. Pretty rare for OS to get walk in patients looking to get their wissies out. Most of your patients will come from GPs and insurance (if you're part of their provider list).

Well put, I think that is the hardest thing for specialists especially the young OS to deal with, you have been just spent 4 to 6 years of a grueling residency, now you get out to the real world and are now told you are gonna need to go out and make the rounds and win over referrals. As stated it s just business, your GP referrals are akin to accounts, if you join a practice as an associate OS, and you piss off the guy who has been referring 6 figures to the office for years, the senior doc is gonna be pissed and will let you know about it. If you decide to start your own practice from scratch in an area with established practices, ohh you will be out " kissing ass" as you call it. Its hard truth, but if you wanna avoid all this find yourself a place here there is no saturation and you are the only go to guy and you don't need do all this.
 
Well put, I think that is the hardest thing for specialists especially the young OS to deal with, you have been just spent 4 to 6 years of a grueling residency, now you get out to the real world and are now told you are gonna need to go out and make the rounds and win over referrals. As stated it s just business, your GP referrals are akin to accounts, if you join a practice as an associate OS, and you piss off the guy who has been referring 6 figures to the office for years, the senior doc is gonna be pissed and will let you know about it. If you decide to start your own practice from scratch in an area with established practices, ohh you will be out " kissing ass" as you call it. Its hard truth, but if you wanna avoid all this find yourself a place here there is no saturation and you are the only go to guy and you don't need do all this.

I've heard the entire state of Wyoming only has like 10 oral surgeons. Not sure how true that is but if you are an OS in Wyoming the GP's have no choice but to refer to you lol
 
I've heard the entire state of Wyoming only has like 10 oral surgeons. Not sure how true that is but if you are an OS in Wyoming the GP's have no choice but to refer to you lol
There you go! And its beautiful country.
 
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