Help!! Emory vs Michigan

[Lawd]

Hi everyone! Was hoping for some advice and feedback on deciding between schools as I feel completely stuck in the middle. Any input is appreciated!

Emory
Pros

• Closer to home
• Lower COA (Tuition: $54k/year) and Lower Cost of Living
• Dedicated 5 month research period
• No internal ranking + True P/F for all 4 years
• Warmer climate

Cons

• Less prestigious / not ranked as highly as Michigan
• Weaker match list (?) and lower on PD rankings
• I'm from Atlanta and familiarity is nice but part of me wants a new experience

Michigan
Pros

• More prestigious
• New experience
• Higher PD ranking
• Ann Arbor seems nice and has a good community + sports culture
• Stronger match list

Cons

• Higher COA (~$76k)
• Freezing weather
• Farther from home
• Internal ranking seems scary (Does this affect the community b/t students?)
• Clerkships are graded (H/HP/P/F)

It's not super important for me to stay at home and I am mostly focused on whether the internal ranking and graded clinicals should factor strongly in my decision as I think I'd most likely want to match into a competitive residency.

Would also like to know if there is a notable difference in research strength between the two schools.

Thank you for taking the time to read and please lmk if I left anything out!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Basalganglia4life]

From the conversations i have had with some doctors, they’ve said what really matters at the end of the day in medical school is not the prestige but the supportive factors that help you succeed and doing what you can minimize your debt burden. I know you say being close to home isn’t very important to you, but it can be really helpful to have family and friends nearby as you navigate the many challenges of med school. A savings of 80k$ by staying at Emory is also a huge deal. Emory is a great school with a strong research focus that i dont see it being the barrier between you and a competitive residency. I would personally choose Emory if given this decision mostly for the proximity to family and friendss

 

[thefirerisen]

The difference between prestige in these schools is not very significant at all. You'll be able to match equally as well at Emory but both schools will have some regional preferences. If you want to end up in the mid-west, Michigan will do much better. If its the south, Emory's name will carry a lot of weight.

Emory is cheaper, closer to home, and most importantly, true P/F. I think that makes it a clear winner here. Don't underestimate how awful internal rankings + grades can be. It means more stress every single day as you'll be trying to grind out to score high on every exam. And in clinicals, you'll be in direct competition with your classmates - yes, this really does bring out the worst in some people (especially hyperambitious med students). It really does make things a whole a lot worse. I go to a school that is true P/F and I can't imagine what I would be doing if I had to compete for every exam. It makes things much easier to be able to relax and go for the Pass, and then spend extra time on things you're passionate about (research, clubs, community service, hobbies, etc). In my unbiased opinion, true P/F should be prioritized as much as possible.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

A savings of 80k$ by staying at Emory is also a huge deal

Emory is cheaper

It’s worth noting that Michigan is quite generous with financial aid, and both need-based and merit-based packages have not been sent out by either institution. Michigan could end up being substantially cheaper than Emory. If cost is a major consideration for OP, they should definitely wait until March to see who gives them the better package.

 

[feeling_tireddddd]

And in clinicals, you'll be in direct competition with your classmates - yes, this really does bring out the worst in some people (especially hyperambitious med students).

One thing about this, hasn't michigan switched to rubric based grading in clinicals? Meaning if everyone fulfills all the criteria, everyone can get honors in any specific rotation? I believe the change was implemented this year for that.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

One thing about this, hasn't michigan switched to rubric based grading in clinicals? Meaning if everyone fulfills all the criteria, everyone can get honors in any specific rotation? I believe the change was implemented this year for that.

Yup!

 

[Lawd]

what really matters at the end of the day in medical school is not the prestige but the supportive factors that help you succeed

Thank you! I think this is something I sometimes overlook especially because apps are so competitive.

 

[Lawd]

If you want to end up in the mid-west, Michigan will do much better. If its the south, Emory's name will carry a lot of weight.

Thank you for your input!! Does the Emory name lose a lot of impact as you leave the South/SE?

 

[Lawd]

It’s worth noting that Michigan is quite generous with financial aid, and both need-based and merit-based packages have not been sent out by either institution. Michigan could end up being substantially cheaper than Emory. If cost is a major consideration for OP, they should definitely wait until March to see who gives them the better package.

This is true. Emory only has Woodruff for 4 students. Thank you for your feedback!

 

[thefirerisen]

Thank you for your input!! Does the Emory name lose a lot of impact as you leave the South/SE?

No Emory can match well throughout the country. It is the leading public health oriented medical school in the country so every residency program will have heard of it. But you will see heavy bias towards the south

 

[user45608]

Do Emory and Michigan both have AOA?

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

side question but could be relevant to post if anyone has some perspective - irrespective of tuition, which school is better for matching comp specialties?

Both are fantastic for matching competitive specialties, but the advantage goes to Michigan:

- They have a massive number of residencies that are ranked top 10 nationally, such as #1 in general surgery and #3 in ENT. Emory does as well, but Michigan to a much greater degree. From my understanding, having well-known names write you a LOR can make a big difference. Plus, home program advantage if you wanted to stay for residency.

- Last year, ~26% of their class matched into competitive specialties (Dermatology, Orthopedics, ENT, Ophthalmology, etc.), versus ~15% at Emory. Keep in mind that a lot of this difference is likely student choice, so consider this with a grain of salt.

- More than double Emory’s research funding, and Michigan has a specific pathway to get involved in research ASAP (Scientific Discovery path of excellence). Emory has a designated research block of 5 months, but it comes much later in the curriculum. Research, particularly publications, are essential for matching competitive specialties.

- In regard to rankings, consider them all with a massive grain of salt, but Michigan’s PD research ranking is a 4.5 while Emory’s is a 4.1.

While Michigan has the advantage, keep in mind, as I said above, that both schools are very well regarded across the nation and will not hinder you in matching any specialty. In my personal opinion, factors like cost and mission fit should take priority over this, given the similarity in the strength of these programs.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

thanks for the great write up - where can one see the 26% etc stats to look at other schools too? seems important for comparing like 5 schools at once.

thanks!

You’ll have to compute it yourself, unfortunately. The match lists are available in a megathread here on SDN. You’ll want to compare multiple years to each other to try and minimize randomness, but even then it’s still not a very reliable metric, as it can vary substantially with student choice.

For instance, Emory has a massive focus on public health, so more students might self-select when choosing a medical school, focusing on primary care or public health oriented specialties which tend to be less competitive. In accounting for a substantial portion of the 15% versus 26% difference, it’s not that these students at Emory couldn’t pursue something like Dermatology, it’s that they didn’t want to!

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

One thing about this, hasn't michigan switched to rubric based grading in clinicals? Meaning if everyone fulfills all the criteria, everyone can get honors in any specific rotation? I believe the change was implemented this year for that.

What is the criteria though? If it's based on subjective evals which I heard it still was, it can't beat P/F.

Both are fantastic for matching competitive specialties, but the advantage goes to Michigan:

- Last year, ~26% of their class matched into competitive specialties (Dermatology, Orthopedics, ENT, Ophthalmology, etc.), versus ~15% at Emory. Keep in mind that a lot of this difference is likely student choice, so consider this with a grain of salt.

This is actually one of the downsides of Michigan reporting all their match results, but supposedly last year was a bad match year with a less than 94% match rate (before SOAP) when most top schools have a 98%+ match rate.

I've harped on this in the past, but all else equal, if you can go to a P/F clinical school, do yourself a favor and do it. Subjective evals absolutely suck, I'm surprised Michigan is one of the few top schools that still needs to segment their students for the match.

Anyone have Emory match data, it's not as easy to find.

 

[feeling_tireddddd]

What is meant by segment their students for the match? Sorry I don't know too much of how these things work

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

I've harped on this in the past, but all else equal, if you can go to a P/F clinical school, do yourself a favor and do it. Subjective evals absolutely suck, I'm surprised Michigan is one of the few top schools that still needs to segment their students for the match.

Definitely agree that P/F is superior, but Michigan is by no means alone.

UChicago, the Mayo Clinic, Penn, Northwestern, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Pittsburgh, and Case Western, for instance, all have graded clerkships too.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

This is actually one of the downsides of Michigan reporting all their match results, but supposedly last year was a bad match year with a less than 94% match rate (before SOAP) when most top schools have a 98%+ match rate.

I don’t think you’re comparing equivalent numbers! Michigan is the only top school (as far as I’m aware) that reports their pre-SOAP match rate. Nearly every other school’s reported match rate is post-SOAP, so there isn’t equivalent data to compare. From my understanding from other threads in this forum (and on Reddit), unless a school specifically mentions their number is pre-SOAP, it’s safe to assume it’s post-SOAP.

Last year, Michigan matched over 99% of their class after SOAP. The fact Michigan reports a pre-SOAP match rate in the first place is actually a major point in their favor, given the transparency. Every school should be doing that, in my opinion.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Definitely agree that P/F is superior, but Michigan is by no means alone.

UChicago, the Mayo Clinic, Penn, Northwestern, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Pittsburgh, and Case Western, for instance, all have graded clerkships too.

that's true, you hear some schools outside the T20 going p/f and i guess you just assume most top programs do it. i wonder how many are considering the switch though

I don’t think you’re comparing equivalent numbers! Michigan is the only top school (as far as I’m aware) that reports their pre-SOAP match rate. Nearly every other school’s reported match rate is post-SOAP, so there isn’t equivalent data to compare. From my understanding from other threads in this forum (and on Reddit), unless a school specifically mentions their number is pre-SOAP, it’s safe to assume it’s post-SOAP.

Last year, Michigan matched over 99% of their class after SOAP. The fact Michigan reports a pre-SOAP match rate in the first place is actually a major point in their favor, given the transparency. Every school should be doing that, in my opinion.

right like i said that's one of the downsides of reporting all of your numbers. I'm actually not sure if most schools--at least at the top--report post-SOAP. You obviously can't tell a SOAP for certain from a match list, but there are hints. SOAPs tend to be undesirable, so surgery prelim without an advanced, or IM/FM from undesirable location that most likely go unfilled.

I quickly browsed through Emory's https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/match-list-2024_final_nonames-pdf.384813/
and they have no surgery prelims, and from a cursory skim shows that FM and IM program (seems like all programs are less likely to be unfilled). This is pretty much true of all T20s OFFICIAL - 2024 Match Lists , their pre-match rate should be around their post-match.

Now the unfortunate thing about Michigan is it gives the public like you and me too much data. 93.8% pre-match pretty much around the national average, but not a T20.
You can also assume all the surgery prelims are the SOAPS in its figure. I looked through some of their FM SOAPS and wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 of those are SOAPS, but I know nothing of the FM programs. this seems like a blip from previous years, and brought on the new clinical grading change. curious why they didn't go P/F though. Anyone have context on them and what the grading change is?

Anyway Emory match list looks good, anyone know how long they've been P/F clinical and if that match list is the P/F?

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

that's true, you hear some schools outside the T20 going p/f and i guess you just assume most top programs do it. i wonder how many are considering the switch though



right like i said that's one of the downsides of reporting all of your numbers. I'm actually not sure if most schools--at least at the top--report post-SOAP. You obviously can't tell a SOAP for certain from a match list, but there are hints. SOAPs tend to be undesirable, so surgery prelim without an advanced, or IM/FM from undesirable location that most likely go unfilled.

I quickly browsed through Emory's https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/match-list-2024_final_nonames-pdf.384813/
and they have no surgery prelims, and from a cursory skim shows that FM and IM program (seems like all programs are less likely to be unfilled). This is pretty much true of all T20s OFFICIAL - 2024 Match Lists , their pre-match rate should be around their post-match.

Now the unfortunate thing about Michigan is it gives the public like you and me too much data. 93.8% pre-match pretty much around the national average, but not a T20.
You can also assume all the surgery prelims are the SOAPS in its figure. I looked through some of their FM SOAPS and wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 of those are SOAPS, but I know nothing of the FM programs. this seems like a blip from previous years, and brought on the new clinical grading change. curious why they didn't go P/F though. Anyone have context on them and what the grading change is?

Anyway Emory match list looks good, anyone know how long they've been P/F clinical and if that match list is the P/F?

I don’t think it’s fair to compare apples to oranges, and if a superstar institution like Michigan has a 4-5% SOAP rate, it can be logically inferred that the vast majority of other top schools have similar rates. Why would Michigan be the only top school with a noticeably lower match rate, especially given its reputation is often considered top 10 nationally? Last year’s results were the norm, not a blip, as results reported throughout the past several years have been nearly identical (93-95% pre-SOAP, 99-100% match rate).

In the thread I linked, some of SDN’s resident adcoms at top schools (like LizzyM) agreed that most schools aren’t going to advertise their pre-SOAP rates. Why would they? It only makes them look worse, and can cause confusion. Kudos to Michigan for not caring and for pursuing transparency above all else.

As for trying to guess SOAP based on a match list, I don’t believe there is any reliable way to do this. Assuming surgery prelims are SOAP isn’t a fair assumption as many specialties (Ophthalmology for instance) more often than not require a preliminary year. A location you assume is undesirable also may not be undesirable to someone else. I know many people who would give up everything to live in NYC, and yet I also know people who would hate NYC and prefer the suburban Midwest (heck, I’m one of those people). This is the main reason I added a huge disclaimer before mentioning competitive specialty %s.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare apples to oranges, and if a superstar institution like Michigan has a 4-5% SOAP rate, it can be logically inferred that the vast majority of other top schools have similar rates. Why would Michigan be the only top school with a noticeably lower match rate, especially given its reputation is often considered top 10 nationally? Last year’s results were the norm, not a blip, as results reported throughout the past several years have been nearly identical (93-95% pre-SOAP, 99-100% match rate).

In the thread I linked, some of SDN’s resident adcoms at top schools (like LizzyM) agreed that most schools aren’t going to advertise their pre-SOAP rates. Why would they? It only makes them look worse, and can cause confusion. Kudos to Michigan for not caring and for pursuing transparency above all else.

As for trying to guess SOAP based on a match list, I don’t believe there is any reliable way to do this. Assuming surgery prelims are SOAP isn’t a fair assumption as many specialties (Ophthalmology for instance) more often than not require a preliminary year. A location you assume is undesirable also may not be undesirable to someone else. I know many people who would give up everything to live in NYC, and yet I also know people who would hate NYC and prefer the suburban Midwest (heck, I’m one of those people). This is the main reason I added a huge disclaimer before mentioning competitive specialty %s.

I agree with you that MOST schools will have a 93-95% pre soap rate. I don't agree with you that most top 20 schools will have that.

-- long blurb about SOAP for @Mr. Macrophage but everyone else should skip, tldr, surgery prelims suck, and surgery prelim without an advanced are most likely SOAP --
It seems like you are just applying to medical school, so I can forgive you for a lot of your analysis. Nope, if you have a surgery prelim year without an advanced match, it most likely means you had to SOAP. What you're saying with Ophthalmology is true, that they can do a surgery prelim year--but then you would also see a match for the advanced year. It is also possible that they matched prelim only and not an advanced year, but few people will choose a surgery prelim year instead of IM--this is true for ophthalmology, anesthesiology, DR/IR. It is why surgery prelims are some of the most common SOAP positions . Few want to do a surgery prelim unless they have to.

I stumbled on this site so not sure how true it is but check it out Match Data Go to "Preliminary Year" then select "Only show unmatched positions?" You will see even top programs like MGH didn't fill 3/4 of their positions, Duke 2/3, hopkins 1/1, UCSF 7/17. Surgery prelims are very, very undesirable. If you see a surgery prelim without an advanced, they most likely SOAPed. The more you know....
-----------

​

The reason I don't think Emory's SOAP rate is high is that again from a very, very cursory view of their match list, it's very unlikely that those programs were unfilled--a combination of specialty and program name. You'll find out that when you apply to residencies, there are more up to date resources that show which programs did not fill.

But yes, I do think last year was an outlier for UMich, since it looks like prior years did not have any surgery prelim only. If you are applying or got accepted, I would ask the admissions and current/past students how last year's match was, and if that was what prompted the grading change. If anyone know what the grading change is, do tell. I've never heard of a rubric based one, what are the criteria? Michigan is a huge name in medicine, so I'm surprised too.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

I agree with you that MOST schools will have a 93-95% pre soap rate. I don't agree with you that most top 20 schools will have that.

I appreciate your perspective and the time you put into your response. There are still a number of points you make that I disagree with, including the one above, but that’s perfectly fine! As both of our claims are without definitive evidence, this is largely a matter of opinion, and we can’t ascertain a correct answer here.

(Edit: This next paragraph is incorrect. See below) The one point I will continue to push back on is your claim that last year’s match was abnormal for Michigan, as there is evidence against this (Michigan publishes their pre-SOAP and post-SOAP match rate every year) since the match rate, both pre-SOAP and post-SOAP, has not meaningfully changed in the last 5 years.

Both are fantastic for matching competitive specialties, but the advantage goes to Michigan:

- They have a massive number of residencies that are ranked top 10 nationally, such as #1 in general surgery and #3 in ENT. Emory does as well, but Michigan to a much greater degree. From my understanding, having well-known names write you a LOR can make a big difference. Plus, home program advantage if you wanted to stay for residency.

- Last year, ~26% of their class matched into competitive specialties (Dermatology, Orthopedics, ENT, Ophthalmology, etc.), versus ~15% at Emory. Keep in mind that a lot of this difference is likely student choice, so consider this with a grain of salt.

- More than double Emory’s research funding, and Michigan has a specific pathway to get involved in research ASAP (Scientific Discovery path of excellence). Emory has a designated research block of 5 months, but it comes much later in the curriculum. Research, particularly publications, are essential for matching competitive specialties.

- In regard to rankings, consider them all with a massive grain of salt, but Michigan’s PD research ranking is a 4.5 while Emory’s is a 4.1.

While Michigan has the advantage, keep in mind, as I said above, that both schools are very well regarded across the nation and will not hinder you in matching any specialty. In my personal opinion, factors like cost and mission fit should take priority over this, given the similarity in the strength of these programs.

To avoid going off topic any further, I’ll simply end the discussion by re-iterating what i said originally: both schools will have no difficulty matching competitive specialties, but it will be easier to do so at Michigan, on average, for the above reasons.

How much easier? That’s impossible to quantify. It’s up to OP to decide how important that is to them, but in my personal opinion there are definitely more important factors, like cost and mission fit!

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

The one point I will continue to push back on is your claim that last year’s match was abnormal for Michigan, as there is definitive evidence against this (Michigan publishes their pre-SOAP and post-SOAP match rate every year) since the match rate, both pre-SOAP and post-SOAP, has not meaningfully changed in the last 5 years.

Links and citation please.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

Links and citation please.

After diving into the data, you were indeed correct. I apologize for my error. When searching for the information, the 2024 results image came up in all of my searches (“Michigan med match results 2023”, “Michigan med match results 2022”, etc.). Evidently, I should have been more thorough in crafting my response instead of just giving the images a cursory glance.

2019: 97%
2020: Cannot Locate
2021: 98.2%
2022: 98%
2023: 96%
2024: 93.8%

Last year’s match rate was indeed concerning. That’s especially interesting, given 26% of the class managed to match competitive specialties, which is substantially higher than most schools. Perhaps too many students pursued these specialties? I’ll ask some current students and get back to you.

I do still disagree on other top schools posting their pre-SOAP rates instead of post-SOAP rates, given many are above 99%. For example, Cornell uses the language “In all, 99 percent of students who entered the match secured residencies.” which implies it includes SOAP. Similarly, UChicago says “The University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine on Friday announced the successful placement of 91 (Class size is around 90) graduating students into residency training positions” which implies SOAP as well. Not every top school uses language like that, but a large number do.

But yes, it is definitive that you were correct, and there was a drop-off last year! I apologize again for my error.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

After diving into the data, you were indeed correct. I apologize for my error. When searching for the information, the 2024 results image came up in all of my searches (“Michigan med match results 2023”, “Michigan med match results 2022”, etc.). Evidently, I should have been more thorough in crafting my response instead of just giving the images a cursory glance.

2019: 97%
2020: Cannot Locate
2021: 98.2%
2022: 98%
2023: 96%
2024: 93.8%

Last year’s match rate was indeed concerning. That’s especially interesting, given 26% of the class managed to match competitive specialties, which is substantially higher than most schools. Perhaps too many students pursued these specialties? I’ll ask some current students and get back to you.

I do still disagree on other top schools posting their pre-SOAP rates instead of post-SOAP rates, given many are above 99%. For example, Cornell uses the language “In all, 99 percent of students who entered the match secured residencies.” which implies it includes SOAP. Similarly, UChicago says “The University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine on Friday announced the successful placement of 91 (Class size is around 90) graduating students into residency training positions” which implies SOAP as well. Not every top school uses language like that, but a large number do.

But yes, it is definitive that you were correct, and there was a drop-off last year! I apologize again for my error.

That's okay, we're here to learn!

Right, I don't doubt that Michigan can place people in top specialties, it is after all not only a medicine powerhouse but also, in particular, a surgery powerhouse. I however suspect that these top placements had to perform very well in the clinical year, which is maybe why the school is adamant on keeping clinical grades, to elevate top performers. If you are confident you can gun for the top spots then by all means go for Michigan. But I suspect you might be more stressed doing it, and you run the risk of getting screwed if you don't do well. Please do report back what the criteria-based grading or whatever is like, because I've never really heard of it. If it's based on objective criteria, and you know the expectations, then I think it can be great, e.g. shelf exams, OSCEs. If, however, it still relies on subjective evals, not sure if it's much of an improvement.

I have a long history of berating subjective clinical grading, since I know (from first and second hand experience) that it is biased against certain groups. As another person has mentioned on here, it can really bring out the worst in people.

I'll give you guys an example. In my surgery rotation way back, there was a surgeon who was known for pimping students on random anatomy, and we aren't sure if this affected his eval of you, but getting them wrong in front of the other residents who grade you isn't a good look either. So people who were "in the know" would study the anatomy or had friends tell them what was asked--even though it's arguable that this is a productive use of your time if you weren't going into surgery, and those that didn't would get demolished. This shows so many sides of what's wrong with this grading. On the one hand, people who had friends and knew the ins and outs had an unfair advantage. However, on the other hand, I would still say that studying this just to suck up to an attending is time better spent studying for shelf exams or following patient care. This is a light example of why it sucks, there are definitely more egregious ones--like students withholding info from other students or taking interesting cases so they can look better, lying to attendings, students baking cookies for their residents and getting them coffee, calling dibs on working with easy attendings etc. And that's from the student side, don't get me started on how sucky the system is because of the evaluators.

If you can go to a P/F school, have extra time to focus on taking care of patients, studying the material and beefing up your extracurriculars/passions, do that!

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

What is meant by segment their students for the match? Sorry I don't know too much of how these things work

I meant the internal rankings and breaking into quartiles.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

what's an "advanced" when discussing prelims

Categorical vs Preliminary vs Advanced Residency Programs: A Primer for Residency Applicants | MedSchoolCoach

If you are applying to residency in the US through the NRMP match program, you may be confused about the different types of programs offered. This may be especi ...

www.medschoolcoach.com

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

Please do report back what the criteria-based grading or whatever is like, because I've never really heard of it. If it's based on objective criteria, and you know the expectations, then I think it can be great, e.g. shelf exams, OSCEs. If, however, it still relies on subjective evals, not sure if it's much of an improvement.

Another admitted student (@feeling_tireddddd) set up a meeting with a Michigan med student and found out that:

- Regarding the drop in match rate, it appears that a number of students (16) discovered a strong interest in a competitive specialty during their rotations, which led to a change in their specialty plans later than usual. Unfortunately, this timing presented some challenges, and 8 students (4-5% of the class) went unmatched before the SOAP process.

- The change in clinical grading is moving towards more objective metrics and less subjective metrics, but preceptor evaluations are still included in the grading scale to some degree. Definitely an improvement, but not ideal yet.

Edit: they’ve also entirely removed internal ranking @Lawd

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Another admitted student (@feeling_tireddddd) set up a meeting with a Michigan med student and found out that:

- Regarding the drop in match rate, it appears that a number of students (16) discovered a strong interest in a competitive specialty during their rotations, which led to a change in their specialty plans later than usual. Unfortunately, this timing presented some challenges, and 8 students (4-5% of the class) went unmatched before the SOAP process.

- The change in clinical grading is moving towards more objective metrics and less subjective metrics, but preceptor evaluations are still included in the grading scale to some degree. Definitely an improvement, but not ideal yet.

Edit: they’ve also entirely removed internal ranking @Lawd

Awesome, thanks for following up! Interesting indeed, I guess you guys applying will have to decide whether that is a satisfactory answer to their drop. It feels to me like it's placing the blame on the students, since it's completely reasonable to decide on a competitive specialty later on--this doesn't really make sense for UMich though, since their 1 year pre-clinical should give them ample time to explore. I don't know, if that were the case i feel like the school should sit them down and tell them that their app is risky and to a) consider dual-applying or b) take an extra year if the late change is really the reason. Surgery prelim years absolutely suck.

Regarding the new grading system, i guess more objective metrics are always better than less subjective ones. I'm interested in different forms of grading so curious to hear what they came up with. but in my view, there's almost no way to make it standardized and unbiased while relying on attendings and residents whose primary focus is not to do grading.

Can't wait for other X vs. Y posts from other programs to see the new grading changes and unusual match drops. Definitely peculiar for such a strong school, but i guess we'll see if this year was a blip and what next year(s) look like.

 

[feeling_tireddddd]

Awesome, thanks for following up! Interesting indeed, I guess you guys applying will have to decide whether that is a satisfactory answer to their drop. It feels to me like it's placing the blame on the students, since it's completely reasonable to decide on a competitive specialty later on--this doesn't really make sense for UMich though, since their 1 year pre-clinical should give them ample time to explore. I don't know, if that were the case i feel like the school should sit them down and tell them that their app is risky and to a) consider dual-applying or b) take an extra year if the late change is really the reason. Surgery prelim years absolutely suck.

I can expand a bit more on this!! Definitely weird, and I agree - with a one year pre-clerkship, this is kind of the last school you would expect this to occur at. The student I spoke to did say that this was not necessarily on the students, as it may have been poor mentorship to those students (whether they were ready to apply or not). All in all, simply due to the consistency of the institution, this is most likely an odd one out sort of statistic rather than the norm, but it will definitely be good to see the numbers return in the spring hopefully! All I know is the brute facts that Mr. Macrophage highlighted above 🙂

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

I can expand a bit more on this!! Definitely weird, and I agree - with a one year pre-clerkship, this is kind of the last school you would expect this to occur at. The student I spoke to did say that this was not necessarily on the students, as it may have been poor mentorship to those students (whether they were ready to apply or not). All in all, simply due to the consistency of the institution, this is most likely an odd one out sort of statistic rather than the norm, but it will definitely be good to see the numbers return in the spring hopefully! All I know is the brute facts that Mr. Macrophage highlighted above 🙂

If next year returns to 96%+ we’ll have our answer for sure!

 

[JimKimSlim]

Emory. Save some money. True P/F will save you some headache. But then STEP2 is everything so study like it’s H/HP/P.

 

[kamikaze1992]

Emory. Save some money. True P/F will save you some headache. But then STEP2 is everything so study like it’s H/HP/P.

I can echo this. As someone who has gone through the process, I would favor Emory by a mile, if financial factors aren't an issue

1) true P/F, especially for clerkships -> this will save you not only "some" headaches, but also some gray hairs and a couple years of your life worrying about evals, which are oftentimes at the whim of your preceptor, and a lot of which is out of your control. This is by far the biggest difference maker between the two institutions -> in shaping your experience in medical school
2) Both schools are of similar tier. Unless you are interested in a specific competitive specialty where one school is a lot stronger than others, (i.e. urology), the prestige factor shouldn't factor that much in. I understand that PD ranking may show some difference, and for this, you should try to narrow down specific specialties that you are interested in, especially competitive ones (ie derm, ortho, ophtho, plastics, neuro-surg, urology etc), as the connections you form with a stronger department will shape your path. If you're interested in non-competitive specialties, then this may play a comparatively lesser role.
3) In terms of research, most med students, and even PhD and post-docs, won't be in a position to reap the benefits of strong research fundings. Nonetheless, two schools are extremely well funded, and the difference between the two would very unlikely affect the opportunity/productivity as a medical student. Rather, it comes down to your mentor and his/her support/reputation. For this, you should try to ask around on medical student's experience in each institution.

 

[Flavivirus]

It feels to me like it's placing the blame on the students, since it's completely reasonable to decide on a competitive specialty later on--this doesn't really make sense for UMich though, since their 1 year pre-clinical should give them ample time to explore.

It's not about time to explore. If objective data say that a particular student is going to be at increased risk of not matching into a highly competitive specialty and is told so by faculty advisor(s), but they decide they want to apply nonetheless, what is the school supposed to do?

I don't know, if that were the case i feel like the school should sit them down and tell them that their app is risky and to a) consider dual-applying or b) take an extra year if the late change is really the reason. Surgery prelim years absolutely suck.

why do you think this didn't happen?

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

It's not about time to explore. If objective data say that a particular student is going to be at increased risk of not matching into a highly competitive specialty and is told so by faculty advisor(s), but they decide they want to apply nonetheless, what is the school supposed to do?



why do you think this didn't happen?

For 1 or two students year, sure. But when it's over 5% of the class for a T20, I wouldn't be quick to blame the students.

 

[Flavivirus]

For 1 or two students year, sure. But when it's over 5% of the class for a T20, I wouldn't be quick to blame the students.

you keep making some interesting assumptions.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

you keep making some interesting assumptions.

You as well, I guess we know who's pro students and who's pro admin lol

 

[atriablack]

M1 at Umich, but haven't heard enough conversations about this past match to weigh in so I will stay out of that.
Anecdotally, I was just talking to a M4 applying EM and we talked about how much the 3 years of clinical came in clutch. 1 year pre-clinical allows for a lot more exploration.

My M1 perspectives:
I agree @Mr. Macrophage that Umich is known for being more generous with FA than other school and to negotiate once FA offered come out. I know of multiple students who negotiated and got a better offer.
I will push back against the idea that our grading scheme affects the community. We have an amazing, supportive community that isn't very gunner friendly. Notes are constantly shared, helpful resources put in the gc, and support is constantly available. I know of a fellow student who had trouble with the material in one of the blocks this first year and they had 5 different faculty and advisors checking in on them and offering advice and support (not to mention us checkin in on them). Help is very available if you ask for it. Pre-Clinical is P/F and I haven't heard anybody talk about specific percentages. That attitude carries over to clinical years as well. The only stress is the personal stress you put on yourself (which might get greater next year when you are in the clerkship you want to go into and are now shooting for that H).

Ann Arbor is a great city, and our sports culture is out of the world. It is cold but only gets truly freezing around this time of the year (Jan-March/Apr) which is only like 3 months of the year. You can grin and bear it (plus the hospital system is all connected so once you make it into a building it's fine). If you have any questions please reach out, happy to answer any that I can (mostly M1 experience). The admissions office is great (they always have free snacks and encouragement for the desperate M1) and will be VERY happy to connect you with older students too

 

[atriablack]

how are clinicals graded? subjectively or ojectively? saw a couple posts of umich students complaining about it.

Yea there is a whole range of opinions about it. Again, I cannot say too much as I've yet to go through it, but based on what I've heard from M2s, they are actively taking feedback in order to make the new rubric system more objective (for ex. faculty needs to be told to still give detailed feedback instead of following preset rubric charts). Overarchingly, I do believe grading is fair, I think a lot of mutterings end up happening on that H/HP line. The rubric system is a response to critique of the old system and they have abolished percent cut offs (ex. 10% get a H or 20% get HP etc). I think by the end of the year they will have ironed out the kinks (which is great for me but the current M2 class has stronger opinions about it being the guinea pigs). Other years strongly support the transition and think it will bring the stress of clinical year down (hard to understand if it has because regardless of grading every M2 will find their clinical year grueling and hard).

Also imo, ultimately we cannot run from subjective scrutiny, we will be going into sub-Is, residency, and the workplace and all function on relationship building and the subjective opinions of our colleagues and seniors—better I get practiced sooner rather than later.

Based on my discussions with faculty and a PD director, I don't think a true P/F system is in the cards for Michigan even in the future because clinical is a place to get feedback and show mastery. The PD director was talking about how much more LORs are mattering nowadays with more and more components of residency app going P/F. They were worried that the pendulum will swing too far and bring out different issue of equity within the apps. I digress.

I will say that I really like my faculty so far and I'm not too worried about getting screwed in clinicals, I don't think my peers will suddenly grow horn and a cut throat attitude, and I'm glad the rubric system has been put in place.

thanks for taking questions - is it fine if I dm? (am admitted to UMMS).

Absolutely!

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

10% honors seems really difficult to get

That was the old system!

 

[atriablack]

also - one thing I heard from some UMMS and somehow mayo students about UMMS is that people can burn out kinda quick because UMMS is so clinically strong but also intensive. would you say that's the case?

No, haven't seen any of that. Very supportive community and people have A LOT of passions outside of medicine. The clinically intensive part can be said about any 1 yr preclinical, but I am looking forward to finishing M1 and finally entering clinical spaces. Theory without application is boring and grueling. Most M2s talk about how much they liked finally applying things we had heard about in lecture.

10% honors seems really difficult to get

Yep was the old system. Also I don't think it was 10% exactly (somewhere closer to 40%), I pulled out random numbers to describe the old grading process.

 

[DoneDone3451]

As an undergrad Alum from U of Michigan, go to Michigan, you will ****ing love it.

 

[phantasmo]

that's true, you hear some schools outside the T20 going p/f and i guess you just assume most top programs do it. i wonder how many are considering the switch though



right like i said that's one of the downsides of reporting all of your numbers. I'm actually not sure if most schools--at least at the top--report post-SOAP. You obviously can't tell a SOAP for certain from a match list, but there are hints. SOAPs tend to be undesirable, so surgery prelim without an advanced, or IM/FM from undesirable location that most likely go unfilled.

I quickly browsed through Emory's https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/match-list-2024_final_nonames-pdf.384813/
and they have no surgery prelims, and from a cursory skim shows that FM and IM program (seems like all programs are less likely to be unfilled). This is pretty much true of all T20s OFFICIAL - 2024 Match Lists , their pre-match rate should be around their post-match.

Now the unfortunate thing about Michigan is it gives the public like you and me too much data. 93.8% pre-match pretty much around the national average, but not a T20.
You can also assume all the surgery prelims are the SOAPS in its figure. I looked through some of their FM SOAPS and wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 of those are SOAPS, but I know nothing of the FM programs. this seems like a blip from previous years, and brought on the new clinical grading change. curious why they didn't go P/F though. Anyone have context on them and what the grading change is?

Anyway Emory match list looks good, anyone know how long they've been P/F clinical and if that match list is the P/F?

thanks for teaching a lot kittenmittens. I've referred to this post many times in past months

 

[HappyRabbit]

Had a similar decision and chose Emory - don’t regret it at all.

True P/F is really underrated and gives you so much room to do whatever you want and customize your med school experience.

When you have to worry about AOA and clerkship grades, your time gets sucked into competing with your classmates over in house exams and rotations, when it could be going into research, Step prep, etc.

Don’t think the prestige gap matters much and if you’re going to be a competitive applicant you’ll be the top applicant coming out of Emory with plenty of research and EC’s from the P/F curriculum.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

For 1 or two students year, sure. But when it's over 5% of the class for a T20, I wouldn't be quick to blame the students.

Match rate returned to normal! Dermatology as a top 5 specialty means a very strong match too!

 

[kamikaze1992]

Had a similar decision and chose Emory - don’t regret it at all.

True P/F is really underrated and gives you so much room to do whatever you want and customize your med school experience.

When you have to worry about AOA and clerkship grades, your time gets sucked into competing with your classmates over in house exams and rotations, when it could be going into research, Step prep, etc.

Don’t think the prestige gap matters much and if you’re going to be a competitive applicant you’ll be the top applicant coming out of Emory with plenty of research and EC’s from the P/F curriculum.

Yeah, I would echo this. I'm a big proponent of P/F for clinical clerkship years. Most schools that do non P/F are graded primarily on evals, on top of meeting the high cutoff for honors, which, to an extent, you have a lot of control over. Evals are incredibly subjective and dependent on how ur graders are. It's an imperfect process, and looking back, the fact that it's graded (and ur grade to a certain extent, is out of ur control), contributes much to the stress of 3rd year.
I think there is a value to not having P/F for less "well-known" school, but going to a school of a caliber like Michigan and Emory, having non-P/F is very risky in case you end up on the wrong end of the spectrum (and perhaps for reasons that are out of your control). This would add so much stress and potentially put you out of contention for competitive specialties, and at that point, it's ur career choice (and ultimately ur happiness) that will get affected. Just my 10 cents.