Help from the BME crew, what are my chances for MD/PhD?

[ablavar]

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Hi everyone,

I will be applying MD/PhD this cycle, and am trying to narrow down my medical school list and get a good idea of my chances.

I graduated last month with a combined BS and MS in BME from a Top 20 school, with a focus in MRI Imaging. The MS was project and coursework-based, so I did not have to complete a thesis, and I completed both degrees in four years.

I've had two significant research experiences. From freshman-junior year (~2.5 yrs), I worked in a visual cognition lab. I programmed a few visual tasks for subjects. I got one second-author publication, submitted another second-author manuscript last month pending review, and have 5 conference abstracts. My PI was wonderful, really let me do my own independent work, and am confident he will write a great letter.

I switched to another lab the latter half of my junior year (~1.5 yrs to date), as I wanted to work in a field more conducive to translational research and improvement of healthcare. I now work in a cardiovascular MRI lab doing signal and image processing. I'm learning a ton about pulse sequence development and quantitative MRI techniques too. I don't have any abstracts from this lab, but hope to have one by fall or winter. I'm continuing to work here for another year as I apply to programs.

Other stats:
sGPA ~3.3, Undergrad cGPA ~3.6, Grad cGPA 4.0
MCAT 38P (PS/VR/BS/WS 12/11/15/P)
Had a HS externship at a hospital for a year, shadowed doctors, worked with autistic kids for a year, led a student workshop section in freshman engineering for two years, volunteered in Uganda for a summer and Guatemala for a spring break, won a powerlifting competition, won an outstanding senior award in my major

I'm aiming to to pursue my PhD in BME, with a focus in MRI signal and image processing or pulse sequence development.

My very tentative MD/PhD list:

Johns Hopkins University (Whiting)
University of California--San Diego (Jacobs)
Duke University (Pratt)
University of Washington
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
University of Pennsylvania
Stanford University
Case Western Reserve University
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor
Northwestern University (McCormick)
Washington University in St. Louis
University of Virginia
University of Wisconsin--Madison
Vanderbilt University
Yale University
University of Illinois--Urbana-Champaign
New York University
Mayo Medical School

In terms of medical schools, tier *really* isn't important to me. I will go to any program that really wants to support me and my research, and will be more than happy to attend any one of these programs.

Sorry for this novel of a post, but I'm hoping some people could suggest programs strong in MRI, and comment on my chances. Thank you!

 

[Choculitis]

Other than the GPA, that sounds pretty good to me. How did you manage a P though, haha?

Also, you mean the Harvard-MIT joint program, right?

 

[ablavar]

Other than the GPA, that sounds pretty good to me. How did you manage a P though, haha?

Also, you mean the Harvard-MIT joint program, right?

Thanks for the advice. I hope the GPA won't make or break me, I do understand it's low, but I'm hoping my research will click with the people I really want to work with.

And yes, the HST program is what I was referring to. I unfortunately could not find much MRI research using the NIH Reporter at both institutions, I probably wasn't looking hard enough...

Don't even remind me about the P. There really was no excuse, I took the Sept 11 test in 2010, and one of the prompts was *exactly* the same as a Kaplan prompt I had done. I froze up during writing like no other, no idea why, but am so fortunate to have blown the BS section away right after that disaster 🙂

 

[Choculitis]

That's the same day as I wrote it. Sucks about the writing though. I'm applying now and I wish I had as much research as you, and the rest of your ECs seem pretty sweet too.

 

[ablavar]

That's the same day as I wrote it. Sucks about the writing though. I'm applying now and I wish I had as much research as you, and the rest of your ECs seem pretty sweet too.

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately the break in my research makes me an odd applicant, I don't have *that* much research in the field I want to pursue. I'm hoping the coursework I have will somewhat make up for it, and the year off I am taking too. Best of luck to you too.

 

[Isles0206]

I applied last cycle with a specific interest in BME (though I am focused on tissue engineering applications rather than imaging or devices). FWIW, I had a similar GPA and lower MCAT score, and was fortunate to be accepted to a couple "top-20 BME grad schools" that had MSTP. I think your list is realistic, but I would suggest maybe a few more non-top 20 MSTPs with established BME departments if you want to be on the safe side (Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana/Purdue come to mind). If you're looking for a comprehensive background in BME (not just imaging), I'm not sure if NYU can compare to all the other schools on your list as I don't believe they have an established BME department (though I could be wrong).

While some schools didn't care, most of the schools I interviewed at really seemed to advocate for BME MSTP students. There are not a ton of students interested in a PhD in engineering, and I believe the BME departments really push for these students because it promotes interdisciplinary research with the medical schools. This in combination with inherently more demanding coursework required for a bachelors in BME I think can somewhat compensate for a lower GPA (though not absolutely). The fact you rocked the MCAT proves you can handle the med school load to the adcom.

And of course, don't come across as a dorky, anti-social engineer at your interviews...

 

[ablavar]

I applied last cycle with a specific interest in BME (though I am focused on tissue engineering applications rather than imaging or devices). FWIW, I had a similar GPA and lower MCAT score, and was fortunate to be accepted to a couple "top-20 BME grad schools" that had MSTP. I think your list is realistic, but I would suggest maybe a few more non-top 20 MSTPs with established BME departments if you want to be on the safe side (Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana/Purdue come to mind). If you're looking for a comprehensive background in BME (not just imaging), I'm not sure if NYU can compare to all the other schools on your list as I don't believe they have an established BME department (though I could be wrong).

While some schools didn't care, most of the schools I interviewed at really seemed to advocate for BME MSTP students. There are not a ton of students interested in a PhD in engineering, and I believe the BME departments really push for these students because it promotes interdisciplinary research with the medical schools. This in combination with inherently more demanding coursework required for a bachelors in BME I think can somewhat compensate for a lower GPA (though not absolutely). The fact you rocked the MCAT proves you can handle the med school load to the adcom.

And of course, don't come across as a dorky, anti-social engineer at your interviews...

This is really a wonderful post, thank you!

I'm definitely going to be adding some of the "lower" tier programs onto my list, I really would like to apply as broadly as possible, and still be happy in the end. NYU actually has a brand new imaging program, and although they are not MSTP, they have an MD/PhD, and the director I spoke with there seemed very enthusiastic to bring on new students.

I was actually kind of concerned that MSTPs are a little biased *against* BME, since it's not one of the basic sciences that they typically train. But this is good to hear.

I have a question for you though - I think BME is a bit odd in that the relevant research areas are quite diverse. For instance, I imagine someone interested in a PhD in chemistry would have far more options for labs to choose from, since the methods and skills needed for each are not all that different.

BME, however, has medical imaging, tissue engineering, biomechanics, ... The skills needed are quite diverse. Though I have an interest in MRI, would it be hypothetically possible to pursue another field in BME?

 

[Choculitis]

While some schools didn't care, most of the schools I interviewed at really seemed to advocate for BME MSTP students. There are not a ton of students interested in a PhD in engineering, and I believe the BME departments really push for these students because it promotes interdisciplinary research with the medical schools.

That's really good to hear, because I'm also planning on doing my PhD in BE. My undergrad's in chemistry, but I've been working in a BE lab for the past couple summers

 

[Isles0206]

I was actually kind of concerned that MSTPs are a little biased *against* BME, since it's not one of the basic sciences that they typically train. But this is good to hear.

BME is definitely not one of the basic sciences, but with NIH's fascination with words like "interdisciplinary, "integrated," and "translational research," this promotes the establishment of physician-engineers. For example, look at the Indiana MSTP (a newish MSTP) recent grant title: "INDIANA MEDICAL SCIENTIST/ENGINEER TRAINING PROGRAM."...or even Ohio State (just got funding this year in times when NIH has been especially tight); they have a training plan specifically for BME.

I have a question for you though - I think BME is a bit odd in that the relevant research areas are quite diverse. For instance, I imagine someone interested in a PhD in chemistry would have far more options for labs to choose from, since the methods and skills needed for each are not all that different.

BME, however, has medical imaging, tissue engineering, biomechanics, ... The skills needed are quite diverse. Though I have an interest in MRI, would it be hypothetically possible to pursue another field in BME?

I think one of the challenges with BME right now is that the field is too broad. When explaining to people what exactly a BME does, I break it down into two branches (imaging/devices and regenerative medicine). My opinion is if you think of these as 'separate' disciplines, it wouldn't be as hard to jump around inside them. i.e.. You do your PhD on lung regeneration, and you could take those skills (cell culture, biomaterial knowledge, molecular bio techniques, etc.) later on to investigate properties of bioartifical muscle. I am in no way involved in imaging, but I would imagine it would be similar. I would think any discipline works similarly (such as someone who is an organic chemist would have some transition period if they now wanted to study drug delivery later on).

For my PhD, I know I want no part of imaging, so I won't be taking courses/doing research in those topics. But, I don't see why you can't expose yourself with elective courses in other BME topics during grad school as long as they fufill requirements in a timely matter. You can also choose to do a rotation in a non-imaging BME lab just to see if you like it (you never know until you try!)...if not, at least you can say you have exposure to that field. Also, your MSTP will hopefully have a lot of general seminars and whatnot to give you an adequate exposure to other areas of more 'traditional' research.

 

[ablavar]

BME is definitely not one of the basic sciences, but with NIH's fascination with words like "interdisciplinary, "integrated," and "translational research," this promotes the establishment of physician-engineers. For example, look at the Indiana MSTP (a newish MSTP) recent grant title: "INDIANA MEDICAL SCIENTIST/ENGINEER TRAINING PROGRAM."...or even Ohio State (just got funding this year in times when NIH has been especially tight); they have a training plan specifically for BME.




I think one of the challenges with BME right now is that the field is too broad. When explaining to people what exactly a BME does, I break it down into two branches (imaging/devices and regenerative medicine). My opinion is if you think of these as 'separate' disciplines, it wouldn't be as hard to jump around inside them. i.e.. You do your PhD on lung regeneration, and you could take those skills (cell culture, biomaterial knowledge, molecular bio techniques, etc.) later on to investigate properties of bioartifical muscle. I am in no way involved in imaging, but I would imagine it would be similar. I would think any discipline works similarly (such as someone who is an organic chemist would have some transition period if they now wanted to study drug delivery later on).

For my PhD, I know I want no part of imaging, so I won't be taking courses/doing research in those topics. But, I don't see why you can't expose yourself with elective courses in other BME topics during grad school as long as they fufill requirements in a timely matter. You can also choose to do a rotation in a non-imaging BME lab just to see if you like it (you never know until you try!)...if not, at least you can say you have exposure to that field. Also, your MSTP will hopefully have a lot of general seminars and whatnot to give you an adequate exposure to other areas of more 'traditional' research.

Thank you so much. Schools with a solid relationship between their engineering and medical departments are what I'm keeping an eye out for. As for my field, I am most probably going to stick with MRI, but I'd like to rotate in another medical imaging lab to get the full perspective.

 

[Shifty B]

I got a PhD in biomedical engineering while in an MD/PhD program on your list a few years ago and I will offer you some advice. I think you are on the right track for the most part. Your strong research and MCAT may help make up for a less than stellar GPA.

There are a few things that you should be interested in:

1) the overall track record of that MSTP in students going through the BME department. Some schools have a BME department but have never had an MD/PhD student go though it. This is a big red flag because you are going to run into a lot of unnecessary hurdles. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it will be harder than going through a basic science path. The program that I went to had a history of 2+ people graduating from BME every year, and that was huge.

2) the atmosphere and reputation of the medical school are more important than you think. I made the same mistake as you and ended up accidentally choosing an awesome place. To a certain extent all MD schools are the same, but atmosphere and reputation are huge. Go to a place that has a laid back atmosphere that is not cutthroat or overly competitive when it comes to ranking or grades. You can make yourself miserable trying to go through the rat-race of competing with other medical students. Second, the reputation of the medical school is probably the second most important thing when residencies are looking at you as a candidate (only step 1 is certainly more important, and maybe clinical grades). If you end up going for a competitive specialty, this can make a big difference.

Fortunately for you, all the programs on your list have good medical schools, so you're not likely to run into problems. However, if it comes down to a choice between a mid-tier state school (say, Iowa or Minnesota) where you really like one particular area of research vs a higher tier school (say, Northwestern or Vanderbilt) where you like the research a little less, give more credence to the higher tier school.

3) Finally, when choosing don't become enamored with one researcher or very specialized area of research. Quite frankly, by the time you start your PhD (2.5 year delay from interviews), the PI that you really liked could be gone. Or you could find that this person is impossible to work with (both these scenarios are quite common actually). Choose a place which has a history in a particular area and more than one lab to choose from. It's better to have multiple PIs and choose the one with the right personality for you than an exact research match.

Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. I'll be happy to give you more details off this forum if you like.

 

[Neuronix]

If you end up going for a competitive specialty, this can make a big difference.

While I think you made a very nice post, my experiences lead me to strongly disagree with this particular position.

 

[ablavar]

I got a PhD in biomedical engineering while in an MD/PhD program on your list a few years ago and I will offer you some advice. I think you are on the right track for the most part. Your strong research and MCAT may help make up for a less than stellar GPA.

There are a few things that you should be interested in:

Thanks a ton for this advice. Some would really argue against #2 (Neuronix already beat you to it), but I really understand how engineers might not be supported that well. My adviser already trimmed a few schools from my list that have a few star investigators, but have very poor engineering programs or are just plain hard to work with.

And I'll try my best not to go for just one investigator at a particular school. The time in between interviews and actually starting my PhD was not something that I had considered. Fortunately, most of these programs have really diverse BME opportunities, so I hope I will be OK by the time decisions come around.

 

[ablavar]

While I think you made a very nice post, my experiences lead me to strongly disagree with this particular position.

Hey Neuronix, I very vaguely recall you saying that you did your PhD in medical imaging, though I could be wrong. Could you comment on my chances or the list of schools that I have chosen? Are there any other schools I should be considering?

 

[Neuronix]

I did my PhD in what you're proposing to do yours in. Your sGPA is low, but I think you still stand a good chance at strong programs.

I think your list is fine. If you want to look at top imaging places generally, see:

http://www.acadrad.org/nih-rankings-grants/NIH-Rankings-2010.pdf

Just keep in mind affiliations (MGH = Harvard for example, MSKCC = Cornell).

 

[ablavar]

I did my PhD in what you're proposing to do yours in. Your sGPA is low, but I think you still stand a good chance at strong programs.

I think your list is fine. If you want to look at top imaging places generally, see:

http://www.acadrad.org/nih-rankings-grants/NIH-Rankings-2010.pdf

Just keep in mind affiliations (MGH = Harvard for example, MSKCC = Cornell).

This is *absolutely* what I was looking for - thank you so much! The lists I was going through sorted by strength in BME, but I was looking for something specific to imaging.

Thanks for the advice. I have some major changes to make.

 

[Shifty B]

Some would really argue against #2 (Neuronix already beat you to it), but I really understand how engineers might not be supported that well.

It may be possible to argue that the reputation of a medical school will not help you, but it is basically impossible to argue that you will have a better experience at an institution with a more pleasant atmosphere. It is much more important than you think.

As for the reputation of the medical school, it is important and will help you. Is it the end all? No. Will it give you a pass for bad grades or low step I? Definitely not. The top 3 criteria for getting a residency slot are:

1) step 1
2) step 1
3) step 1

After that, your clinical grades and medical school reputation are probably next. Less than that research. Even less then extracurriculars and other crap.

Neuronix has one point of view which is influenced by his personal experiences but is not by any means a consensus. There are other opinions.

 

[PfNO22]

It may be possible to argue that the reputation of a medical school will not help you, but it is basically impossible to argue that you will have a better experience at an institution with a more pleasant atmosphere. It is much more important than you think.

I think there is a word missing somewhere here...

 

[ablavar]

It may be possible to argue that the reputation of a medical school will not help you, but it is basically impossible to argue that you will have a better experience at an institution with a more pleasant atmosphere. It is much more important than you think.

Given that I will be committing more than 7 years to the institution I pick, I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I do not think my credentials are going to leave me with so many choices that this will be an issue for me, but I would take support and atmosphere from a program way more than a few ranks on a list.

 

[Shifty B]

I think there is a word missing somewhere here...

It made sense in my head. I meant:
- some people might think the reputation of a med school doesn't make much of a difference in getting a residency. it's debatable
- the atmosphere/environment of a med school makes a tremendous difference for your quality of life. it's not debatable

 

[PfNO22]

Given that I will be committing more than 7 years to the institution I pick, I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I do not think my credentials are going to leave me with so many choices that this will be an issue for me, but I would take support and atmosphere from a program way more than a few ranks on a list.

It's a lot harder to analyze support and atmosphere than rank on a list. And they can be pretty tricky about faking support and atmosphere....

 

[ablavar]

It's a lot harder to analyze support and atmosphere than rank on a list. And they can be pretty tricky about faking support and atmosphere....

Not necessarily. I'm doing my homework and talking to as many medical students and admissions directors as I can.

One student has flat out told me that their MSTP administration does not care about them. One director spent an hour on the phone with me teaching me how to use the NIH Reporter. There is so much more to be learned than following what a list will tell you.