Help! How to complete program quickly and prepare for internship?

[psych1420]

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Hello,

I was hoping to get some advice and perspective from those of you who are further along in your programs or have graduated.

Apologies for the long winded background but I think it is relevant to understand my situation before I propose my question(s) below:

I recently completed my first year in a clinical program that is heavily research based. I know, however, that I am primarily interested in becoming a clinician some day (or at least, in a more clinically based position, not being a prof). In my program, we start seeing clients in our second year, however we do not start accumulating 'significant' hours until the third year and beyond when we do practicums in the community (eg, in the first year we could get like 60 F2F hours). The average length of time for graduation from my program is about 6-6.5 years, however, I wouldn't say I particularly 'enjoy' the program due to the intense stress, competition, and hoops that they make us jump through----As I also don't want to be a prof, I have no desire to sit here for the next 5 years and attempt to publish papers, as I know none of my clients will ever look or care. So, it is my goal to try to finish the program quicker (e.g., 5 years) if possible. And please, I know that this forum has a HEAVILY based feeling that therapists don't need a phd...it's a waste of time...just get an LCSW and spare yourself the pain, etc, but respectfully I ask that you keep those opinions to yourself in this thread. I have come this far and I intend to get my PhD, regardless if I will inevitably get paid more or not. But I digress...

My overarching question is this: For those of you who wanted to or successfully did finish the program quickly, how did you do it?

I see three issues. First, the milestones of the program--- masters, comprehensive exams, dissertation, and balancing these milestones with other research and publishing expectations from your adviser. Second, accumulating sufficient clinical hours to be competitive enough to apply for internship--how many hours are truly needed to make you a competitive 'enough' candidate to get an internship now? I know many people on this forum seem to have accumulated massive amounts of clinical hours, but how many are currently seen as 'sufficient' to get a spot (assuming the applicant had very strong credentials in other areas, and very strong essays---to a non-research based adult internship site. And yes I am aware of the internship stats and that lots of hours doesn't guarantee regardless). Lastly, filling course program course requirements.

Thus far, I have found it extremely difficult to balance all three of these areas at one time, so my strategy has been to try and knock out my milestones and classes as quickly as possible and leaving clinical hours for later in the program (which is the part I enjoy the most, anyway). So, I have been focusing heavily on completing my masters quickly so I can move on to comprehensive exams, and front-loading my coursework the first few year so I can be done with requirements by year 3. With this said, however, other people in my program are already acquiring significant clinical hours by being involved in other clinical activities, i. e. groups, etc, but as a result are progressing more slowly on their program milestones (masters, etc).

I think it would literally kill me trying to be involved in groups and clients while front loading my classes and trying to finish my milestones early (on top of publishing my adviser expects me to be doing....). But, if I proceed like I am doing, will it be difficult for me to apply for internship early due to lack of clinical hours?

So, to summarize, I suppose all my questions are:

1) How does one make it through a clinical program quickly? In the end of the day, is it generally the program requirements (masters, comp, diss) that slow people down, or lack of clinical hours?

2) How many clinical hours do I *need* to match, realistically, to an adult internship site (not research-based), and hopefully not match to some podunk spot in arkansas? (No offense, Arkansas people!). I don't need to end up in San Diego, but a large city would be nice...

3) Will I be okay if I try to knock my program requirements out of the way quickly and focus on clinical hours later?

Thank you in advance for your time, consideration, and thoughts.

 

[cara susanna]

1. Stay on top of requirements and also try to take as many clinical opportunities as possible.
2. There is no "magic number." I'll be applying with 500 F2F but I'm also like the opposite of you in that I am very research-focused. I know a clinically-oriented person who matched with about 600 F2F (400 intervention) but this person applied in smaller cities. A lot of sites list minimums, so I'd recommend looking up the types of places you want and see what those are. I should caution though that with the imbalance, it's hard to get the kind of geographic region that you prefer, especially if you like more geographically desirable areas.
3. I wouldn't recommend that.

 

[psych1420]

Thanks for your response!

I am curious, though. Has anyone on this forum finished their program in 5 years? And if so, how did they do it?

Do internship sites really care if you have 2 or 3 pubs vs 5-10?

Are any other aspiring clinicians on this forum trying to finish their program expeditiously? What is your strategy?

 

[psych1420]

Also, and this is perhaps another question but, where can we find straightforward information on the requirements of each state for licensure? I imagine there are some states that are much more difficult (hours wise) than others?

 

[cara susanna]

I didn't, but my program encourages the 4+1 model and most of my cohort finished. I also know people who came in with their Masters and did a 3+1 model. Like I said, they all kept up with the research requirements while getting as many clinical hours as possible. But they also had some very therapy-heavy placements.

If you're clinically-oriented, just having 2 or 3 pubs is fine and, in fact, above average.

 

[erg923]

4+1 here. My dissertation data came from an ongoing project in my lab. So all I had to do was recode and enter data. No data collection headaches or delays. I did not find any other aspects (comps, quals/orals, etc). to be barriers.

 

[psych1420]

Data for my project won't be an issue. How did you accomplish your clinical hours over that time frame? Can you give me a breakdown (roughly) of how many you had per year---or total at the time of application, and when you finished your masters, quals, and dissertation? Thanks!

 

[PHD12]

It seems like the stress level is impacting the overall enjoyment of the program. If you went the 6 year route, do you think you would be less stressed and have a better quality of life though? It doesn't seem like you are enjoying the process and just want to get it done and out of the way because it's aversive. I personally found graduate school much more enjoyable because I didn't try to make it work in 5 years. There are just too many different things that need to get done. I definitely was able to have more of a life and felt really prepared for internship. Another plus is that you may match at a better site too. I had many clinical hours in the end and had great options for internship. Don't have any regrets about that.

Aside from that, Erg's suggestion about not having to collect data for dissertation is going to make a big difference in your ability to graduate in 5 years. Everyone that i know who finished in 5 did not collect original data for dissertation.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It seems like the stress level is impacting the overall enjoyment of the program. If you went the 6 year route, do you think you would be less stressed and have a better quality of life though? It doesn't seem like you are enjoying the process and just want to get it done and out of the way because it's aversive. I personally found graduate school much more enjoyable because I didn't try to make it work in 5 years. There are just too many different things that need to get done. I definitely was able to have more of a life and felt really prepared for internship. Another plus is that you may match at a better site too. I had many clinical hours in the end and had great options for internship. Don't have any regrets about that.

Aside from that, Erg's suggestion about not having to collect data for dissertation is going to make a big difference in your ability to graduate in 5 years. Everyone that i know who finished in 5 did not collect original data for dissertation.

Agreed--grad school was much less hectic for me because I decided early on not to aim for the 5-year path, although many from my program also seemed to enjoy themselves despite sticking to that schedule.

Our program typically had students seeing clients during the first year and offered a variety of practicum placements in multiple types of settings, so that's how individuals were able to get their clinical hours in.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

In my program, the biggest distinguishing factor between students who graduated quickly and slowly was their mentor (although 4+1 was very rare when I was attending, "fast" was 5+1 with dissertation done prior to leaving campus).

The quick students had advisors who didn't expect an oppressive amount of time in the lab, who had RA positions in the lab so the student didn't have to TA for their stipend, didn't make them do an overly complex dis, and didn't require a million revisions on the dis. Their advisors helped them create an agreeable committee (usually the advisor's buddies) who wouldn't create trouble at committee meetings. These students also were very protective with their time and skipped out on anything optional (mtgs, speakers). They also didn't do many optional activities like papers or conferences. Honestly, I think they cheated themselves out of some of their education.

So, how cooperative is your advisor? I'd keep my career aspirations quiet, though. A research heavy program isn't going to be excited about pushing a non-researcher through the program and you may lose a lot of support.

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[psych1420]

Dr. E and others, thank you for your comments.

And yes Dr. E, I know to keep quiet about this, I find it humorous (frustrating..and annoying) that despite the outcome data at most clinical programs with only 50% going into research, how ostracized students can become if they admit they are leaning more towards a clinical path. It's as if DCTs and profs want to ignore this reality and treat every student if they were future R1 professor material.

That's interesting about the leniency of an advisor being an important factor. I hadn't considered this strongly before. I would say my advisor leans more towards only caring about students research and publishing, and not at all about clinical training. I imagine this is probably the norm at most competitive clinical programs.

And, PHD12, I appreciate your sentiment, but I imagine it is perhaps pretty normal for students who want to be PP psychologists to want to get out of these programs quickly---or at least not drag things out as long as possible---so they can begin their careers sooner. For some of my fellow class mates it might make sense to hang out for 6+ years and get a ton of pubs under their belt, take all the stats classes the program has to offer, etc, but for me it just won't matter (nor do I enjoy it, particularly). Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the research process and learning new things about my field, but I don't need 4 more years of upper level modeling classes to feel like I understand how to read research.

 

[psych1420]

Can anyone else currently in a program or recently graduated who went into clinical practice share their experiences? Did you feel the same urge to finish sooner rather than later?

If so, how did you do it?

 

[PhDToBe]

Thanks for your response!

I am curious, though. Has anyone on this forum finished their program in 5 years? And if so, how did they do it?

Do internship sites really care if you have 2 or 3 pubs vs 5-10?

Are any other aspiring clinicians on this forum trying to finish their program expeditiously? What is your strategy?

We have people doing 4 +1 at my program, and some 5 +1, as well. Depending on your program, you could try to use archival data for your dissertation to save time, too.

We have noticed that clinically-oriented internship sites do not care if you have several pubs. I go to a good PhD program and some people have gotten good internships with 0-1 pubs.

Because you cannot count 3/4 of your last year's clinical hours (since you apply around October), I would also NOT suggest saving getting your clinical hours until the end.

I see your point about wanting to get the milestones and coursework out of the way, but it is sometimes easier to have real client experience to apply the coursework material to (particularly for clinical classes).

In general, I would not worry about getting pubs if I were you (maybe 1-2), and it might be good for you to try to get clinical hours throughout your program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

And yes Dr. E, I know to keep quiet about this, I find it humorous (frustrating..and annoying) that despite the outcome data at most clinical programs with only 50% going into research, how ostracized students can become if they admit they are leaning more towards a clinical path. It's as if DCTs and profs want to ignore this reality and treat every student if they were future R1 professor material.

These type of programs represent a very small portion of clinical PhD programs--most programs are "balanced," and in reality, "balanced" usually means "clinically leaning." I've closely known students from two different "balanced" university-based PhD programs. At these programs, students can (and often) do graduate having done only a thesis and dissertation and with no interest in doing any research beyond that and little or no faculty pressure to do more. Some students like this, but I've also seen research-oriented folks at these types of programs struggle, as they have to basically create research/publication opportunities from the ground up. I'm sorry that your program isn't a good fit for you, but it's in a minority of clinical psych programs with its heavy research focus and expectations.

 

[psych1420]

We have people doing 4 +1 at my program, and some 5 +1, as well. Depending on your program, you could try to use archival data for your dissertation to save time, too.

We have noticed that clinically-oriented internship sites do not care if you have several pubs. I go to a good PhD program and some people have gotten good internships with 0-1 pubs.

Because you cannot count 3/4 of your last year's clinical hours (since you apply around October), I would also NOT suggest saving getting your clinical hours until the end.

I see your point about wanting to get the milestones and coursework out of the way, but it is sometimes easier to have real client experience to apply the coursework material to (particularly for clinical classes).

In general, I would not worry about getting pubs if I were you (maybe 1-2), and it might be good for you to try to get clinical hours throughout your program.

I appreciate this input, very good to know. In the program and lab i'm in, I can't imagine getting out without at least 3-4 pubs. I will DEFINITELY try to get more clinical exposure given that most of the hours from my last year won't apply.

 

[psych1420]

These type of programs represent a very small portion of clinical PhD programs--most programs are "balanced," and in reality, "balanced" usually means "clinically leaning." I've closely known students from two different "balanced" university-based PhD programs. At these programs, students can (and often) do graduate having done only a thesis and dissertation and with no interest in doing any research beyond that and little or no faculty pressure to do more. Some students like this, but I've also seen research-oriented folks at these types of programs struggle, as they have to basically create research/publication opportunities from the ground up. I'm sorry that your program isn't a good fit for you, but it's in a minority of clinical psych programs with its heavy research focus and expectations.

Ehhh, FWIW I think the other programs I got accepted to (a few others, all were top 20) would have been the same, or worse clinical vs research wise. From what I've seen, the higher the ranking of the program the more productive it expects students to be....and by this I mean pumping pubs. Most of the people from my lab come out with 7-10+ pubs, a few first author, because the expectation is so high from those we work for. That probably sounds like a great situation for people aspiring to be a future R1 prof, but for clinical people it's a whole lot of pressure. I will surely do less, but i'm sure at least 3+ (co-authored, maybe 1 single). That said, I am speaking about my own lab...for others they have much, much less.

 

[cara susanna]

That probably sounds like a great situation for people aspiring to be a future R1 prof

I'm not even aspiring for R1 and that sounds amazing to me! Are your diamond shoes too tight? 😉 I'm kidding, but as a research-oriented person at a balanced program I've had to work really hard to seek out and create my own research opportunities.

Keep in mind that publications will often help you even as a clinician. Internship sites, post-docs, and I've heard even some jobs (at least the ones that SDNers talk about being on the hiring end of) like to see a publication or two. However, if you have TOO many, you may be seen as too research-focused and will have to work really hard to convey that you are primarily interested in clinical work. We've talked about this in the "where do super publishers go on internship" thread.

 

[WisNeuro]

Keep in mind that publications will often help you even as a clinician. Internship sites, post-docs, and I've heard even some jobs (at least the ones that SDNers talk about being on the hiring end of) like to see a publication or two.

Cara is right. The several times that I've been part of the selection committee for a CLINICAL site; all things being equal, the people with several publications always beat out the people with no pubs.

Bottom line is, even if you want to do clinical work, you need to have a scientific background to properly understand the work you are doing. I, for one, prefer that my mechanic knows how the tools that he/she is using work and why they do so, rather than one who blindly fiddles away with whatever tools they have until something works.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Cara is right. The several times that I've been part of the selection committee for a CLINICAL site; all things being equal, the people with several publications always beat out the people with no pubs.

My N=1...when I participated in the review process for an APA-acred. internship (VA) site I did not recommend anyone for interview that didn't have at least some academic productivity (publication, presentation, invited talk, etc). I didn't care if someone had 1 publication or 10 publications, but it is a red flag in my mind to go through 4+ years of graduate training and not have anything. Our site was very much a "typical" VA site that had a strong focus on EBTs, so the applicants w/o any academic productivity would not have been a good fit for the site since everything underlying our training involved the integration of research into clinical practice. We had 120+ applications and were pulling from a local pool that included three excellent programs who would produce 2-4 solid applicants each year, so it wasn't hard to assemble an interview list of 20-25 applicants once all of the out of state applicants were included. My intern class had 2 in state and 2 out of state interns, which I was told was typical.

 

[psych1420]

FWIW I have to say I was a little disappointed in the amount of responses this thread got. I would like to extend my utmost thanks to those that did reply with your very helpful advice, however for over 1,000 views, I expected more than 10 people to respond besides myself.

I know there are a lot of current grad students who want to go into a mainly clinical role on this board (well, at least we know that 50%+ of clinical phds will), in addition to the psychologists who are on here.

Just saying, I know i'm not the only one who is trying to strategize about how they will get through the program and move on with their lives!

 

[WisNeuro]

FWIW I have to say I was a little disappointed in the amount of responses this thread got. I would like to extend my utmost thanks to those that did reply with your very helpful advice, however for over 1,000 views, I expected more than 10 people to respond besides myself.

I know there are a lot of current grad students who want to go into a mainly clinical role on this board (well, at least we know that 50%+ of clinical phds will), in addition to the psychologists who are on here.

Just saying, I know i'm not the only one who is trying to strategize about how they will get through the program and move on with their lives!

Couple things. One, only a small percentage of people who view SDN actually post on SDN. Two, if someone already said what you wanted to say, why repeat it.

I think the bottom line is that grad school for your Ph.D. takes time. There are a variety of things you need to learn regardless of whether or not you are going clinical or academic (i.e., therapy, assessment, research). These are necessary to be competent in what you do. Additionally, quality internships are getting more competitive every year. If you are severely lacking in one area, well, your app gets moved to the bottom of the pile. We have dozens of applicants every year with mounds of clinical hours with absolutely no research products and they all get ranked in the bottom half. If you don't know your research, you don't know what you're doing clinically.

 

[LPPSYD]

FWIW I have to say I was a little disappointed in the amount of responses this thread got. I would like to extend my utmost thanks to those that did reply with your very helpful advice, however for over 1,000 views, I expected more than 10 people to respond besides myself.

I know there are a lot of current grad students who want to go into a mainly clinical role on this board (well, at least we know that 50%+ of clinical phds will), in addition to the psychologists who are on here.

Just saying, I know i'm not the only one who is trying to strategize about how they will get through the program and move on with their lives!

Honestly the only thing that comes to mind is that I wouldn't take any risks in possibly sacrificing some of your training because the internship imbalance is a very real threat. I can definitely empathize with wanting to be done as soon as possible, but to me an extra year in school is a whole lot better than another year of going through the match. It sounds like completing your program in its entirety and as its designed will make you a much more qualified candidate. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.